Real story:

Woman identifies as a lesbian. She experiences this lesbian status as a deeply felt fact of her own identity.

One day, however, her partner transitions into a man. "Am I still a lesbian? This has long been a deeply felt fact of my very identity. Am I supposed to deny the fact that my partner is a man? Or am I supposed to deny that I am a lesbian? I can't have it both ways."

For the L and the G, their identity is predicated on the fixed status of gender. But for the T, gender is not at all a fixed status, but a spectrum. Long story short: there is a deep contradiction between the fundamental claims of trans ideology and the fundamental claims of traditional homosexual ideology.

OK. And?

I don't think the point of the LGBT movement is to prioritize any one category over the other. People change, it happens. Maybe a relationship that worked previously is no longer in the best interest for those involved. Are we supposed to encourage them to stay in a situation that makes them unhappy?

Sex and gender are not the same thing. Both exist on a spectrum. One is a social spectrum and one is a biological spectrum. Why do you have to make creation so boring and simplistic?

Breaking news: sexuality is complicated.

craigernaught said:

---

Breaking news: sexuality is complicated.

---

Childhood trauma will do that to people.

Rocag said:

---

OK. And?

I don't think the point of the LGBT movement is to prioritize any one category over the other. People change, it happens. Maybe a relationship that worked previously is no longer in the best interest for those involved. Are we supposed to encourage them to stay in a situation that makes them unhappy?

---

This paints a gruesome picture of people's attitudes toward marriage nowadays. I guess it resolves the matter though. Marriage is a completely ambiguous, and meaningless term. So the real question is, who gives a ***** It doesn't matter what they do or don't do, as long as it doesn't make them unhappy.

I can't imagine why someone who isn't one of these two people would care about this.

I don't understand. If the woman is a lesbian and her female partner becomes masculine, then she probably won't be attracted to that person anymore. Emotional connections and relationships are entirely separate to that. If my female partner became masculine, then I wouldn't love them any less. But I probably would be less physically attracted to them, or maybe not at all.

I think the bigger issue is the tension between feminism and the trans community. You see people like JK Rowling get attacked all the time for talking about this incompatibility. Feminists believe there is no major difference in the aptitudes, attitudes, or capabilities of men and women aside from the biology involved in procreation. So aside from reproduction all differences between men and women are social constructions that have no inherent meaning. The trans movement says that despite having one set of procreative organs, that person is the other gender as an immutable fact. According to feminism that makes no sense. You can't immutably identify as a meaningless and arbitrary social construct. But to someone who is trans, their very essence and person is rooted in this identity. Some people have gone as far as to push a difference between male and female brains based on scans, and used that as a justification for the trans phenomenon. That idea is heresy to feminists, as it would confirm that men and women have more differences than they are willing to allow.

AGC said:

---

craigernaught said:

---

Breaking news: sexuality is complicated.

---

Childhood trauma will do that to people.

---

It's almost impressive how far some people go to avoid acknowledging biological and individual complexity. They always have to have a cheap answer to eliminate any challenge to their staid worldview.

Rocag said:

---

OK. And?

---

Long story short: there is a deep contradiction between the fundamental claims of trans ideology and the fundamental claims of traditional homosexual ideology.

Beer Baron said:

---

I can't imagine why someone who isn't one of these two people would care about this.

---

I can tell you why I care about it, if it helps. I worry you won't believe me, but I'm just telling the unfiltered truth regarding my motivations.

I teach college kids. I have kids. I deeply want rich, vibrant, flourishing, good lives for them. Our dominant culture is teaching them, in my view, contradictory claims about identity, sexuality, gender, and human nature. I think people are being hurt because as a culture we're accepting not merely false, but obviously false (because contradictory) claims about human nature and sexuality.


(By the way, when I type that, I don't feel anger. Truly. I feel like I would feel if I moved to a culture where the practice of polygamy was widely accepted. Precisely BECAUSE I care about my friends and neighbors, I would want to help them see how the practice of polygamy hurt their lives and their communities.)

Beer Baron said:

---

I can't imagine why someone who isn't one of these two people would care about this.

---

I wish I had more stars to give your post.

There are many things I don't understand. I find that I need not understand (or agree with) everything about a person in order to be able to respect that person.

fat girlfriend said:

---

Beer Baron said:

---

I can't imagine why someone who isn't one of these two people would care about this.

---

I can tell you why I care about it, if it helps. I worry you won't believe me, but I'm just telling the unfiltered truth regarding my motivations.

I teach college kids. I have kids. I deeply want rich, vibrant, flourishing, good lives for them. Our dominant culture is teaching them, in my view, contradictory claims about identity, sexuality, gender, and human nature. I think people are being hurt because as a culture we're accepting not merely false, but obviously false (because contradictory) claims about human nature and sexuality.


(By the way, when I type that, I don't feel anger. Truly. I feel like I would feel if I moved to a culture where the practice of polygamy was widely accepted. Precisely BECAUSE I care about my friends and neighbors, I would want to help them see how the practice of polygamy hurt their lives and their communities.)

---

What I read above is "some people disagree with me and that bothers me".

Sapper Redux said:

---

Sex and gender are not the same thing. Both exist on a spectrum.

---

I think your claim is on the false side of the true/false spectrum, and my justification for this belief is high enough to count as on the knowledge side of the knowledge/not knowledge spectrum.

Beer Baron said:

---

I can't imagine why someone who isn't one of these two people would care about this.

---

I think this is the right place for the discussion. The trans movement is new philosophical ground. In some ways it directly contradicts both traditional and progressive thought, and in other ways it embraces both. In the trans movement, identity can be fixed but discordant with the physical. That is a very postmodern take. But the trans movement also is heavily slanted to traditional gender roles and expressions, which is a very traditional take and contradicts postmodernism.

I can't speak for the prejudiced or the political motivated people, but from a strictly philosophial standpoint it's unlike anything we've seen.

kurt vonnegut said:

---

fat girlfriend said:

---

Beer Baron said:

---

I can't imagine why someone who isn't one of these two people would care about this.

---

I can tell you why I care about it, if it helps. I worry you won't believe me, but I'm just telling the unfiltered truth regarding my motivations.

I teach college kids. I have kids. I deeply want rich, vibrant, flourishing, good lives for them. Our dominant culture is teaching them, in my view, contradictory claims about identity, sexuality, gender, and human nature. I think people are being hurt because as a culture we're accepting not merely false, but obviously false (because contradictory) claims about human nature and sexuality.


(By the way, when I type that, I don't feel anger. Truly. I feel like I would feel if I moved to a culture where the practice of polygamy was widely accepted. Precisely BECAUSE I care about my friends and neighbors, I would want to help them see how the practice of polygamy hurt their lives and their communities.)

---

What I read above is "some people disagree with me and that bothers me".

---

I can't force you to see me as honest and charitable, I don't guess.

I am interested: would it bother you if someone told others they should drink bleach to keep from getting Covid? Would it bother you just because "some people disagree with me and that bothers me" or because you think that drinking bleach would harm people, and you don't want people to be hurt?

I don't not believe you, I just don't see why you think LGBT people can't live rich, vibrant, fulfilled lives. The two people in the OP may or may not be able to find that in their current relationship, or maybe they should move on and find it elsewhere. Whichever way it goes, I wish them luck.

What do you think they should do? The lesbian should not be a lesbian and find herself a man? Clearly the trans person shouldn't be trans - that's the thrust of your argument right? And again if that's what they want I don't know why you think it's your business to care.

fat girlfriend said:

---

kurt vonnegut said:

---

fat girlfriend said:

---

Beer Baron said:

---

I can't imagine why someone who isn't one of these two people would care about this.

---

I can tell you why I care about it, if it helps. I worry you won't believe me, but I'm just telling the unfiltered truth regarding my motivations.

I teach college kids. I have kids. I deeply want rich, vibrant, flourishing, good lives for them. Our dominant culture is teaching them, in my view, contradictory claims about identity, sexuality, gender, and human nature. I think people are being hurt because as a culture we're accepting not merely false, but obviously false (because contradictory) claims about human nature and sexuality.


(By the way, when I type that, I don't feel anger. Truly. I feel like I would feel if I moved to a culture where the practice of polygamy was widely accepted. Precisely BECAUSE I care about my friends and neighbors, I would want to help them see how the practice of polygamy hurt their lives and their communities.)

---

What I read above is "some people disagree with me and that bothers me".

---

I can't force you to see me as honest and charitable, I don't guess.

---

I don't know you well enough to form an opinion one way or the other.

I also want kids to have rich, vibrant, flourishing, good lives. I have an opinion on what views / beliefs about identity and sexuality and gender are healthiest for people. And I believe that certain dogmas can be harmful and false.

But here is the thing about me. . . . I don't assume that my opinions for what is best are correct and that yours are wrong. I believe you should speak your mind and I should speak my mind. And let people decide for themselves. AND, this is super important, I believe that we should be happy for people that live their life with sincerity and honest in pursuit of those things we both want for our kids. . . . even if its not what we would choose for them.

From my perspective, showing that you "care about [your] friends and neighbors" includes, at some point, respecting them enough and having enough humility to allow them to believe differently from you.

Quote:

---

I don't understand. If the woman is a lesbian and her female partner becomes masculine, then she probably won't be attracted to that person anymore. Emotional connections and relationships are entirely separate to that. If my female partner became masculine, then I wouldn't love them any less. But I probably would be less physically attracted to them, or maybe not at all.

---

I don't know, man. People fall out of love all the time, for shallow and deep reasons. I'd be hard pressed to believe that someone transitioning to another gender that one is not attracted too won't have its effects on loving them. If you want to define love in such a way that its impossible, I guess that's a way to go about it.

(or, if you want to say that that love changing from a spousal love to a brotherly love that that's not loving them any less...but I would disagree on that one)

Quote:

---

I think the bigger issue is the tension between feminism and the trans community. You see people like JK Rowling get attacked all the time for talking about this incompatibility. Feminists believe there is no major difference in the aptitudes, attitudes, or capabilities of men and women aside from the biology involved in procreation. So aside from reproduction all differences between men and women are social constructions that have no inherent meaning. The trans movement says that despite having one set of procreative organs, that person is the other gender as an immutable fact. According to feminism that makes no sense. You can't immutably identify as a meaningless and arbitrary social construct. But to someone who is trans, their very essence and person is rooted in this identity. Some people have gone as far as to push a difference between male and female brains based on scans, and used that as a justification for the trans phenomenon. That idea is heresy to feminists, as it would confirm that men and women have more differences than they are willing to allow.

---

The issue is that it's justification after the fact, which is not a criticism - it's a human reality of how we process things. They start with the immutable fact because they didn't feel correct and now they do. It's called immutable so you can't take it away from them. it's the same for the feminism side. They don't believe in equality to men because they've proven it with brain scans - they chose equality first and then built everything on it.

I think the overall discourse will go better between trans and cis if we recognize their desire for acceptance and push back on the unintended consequences of their justification of that acceptance.

fat girlfriend said:

---

I am interested: would it bother you if someone told others they should drink bleach to keep from getting Covid? Would it bother you just because "some people disagree with me and that bothers me" or because you think that drinking bleach would harm people, and you don't want people to be hurt?

---

You are comparing drinking bleach with being gay. A person living their life as a gay or trans person is, in your opinion, doing harm. In my opinion it is not. In my opinion, maybe I think that living as a Christian is harmful. If that were true, what actions should I be inclined to take to deconvert Christians?

The reason I've engaged you here is this - I think your posts lack the humility required to accept that other people have different beliefs, values, and lifestyles and that other people believe that those beliefs, values, and lifestyles are healthy and that they make them happy and vibrant and fulfilled.

In other words, I think you want people to live rich, vibrant, flourishing, good lives. But you don't appear to be willing to accept that living this way may look differently for different people. If you want to help people instead of hurt them, maybe stop telling them that they are wrong and unnatural for loving who they love.

Sapper Redux said:

---

AGC said:

---

craigernaught said:

---

Breaking news: sexuality is complicated.

---

Childhood trauma will do that to people.

---

It's almost impressive how far some people go to avoid acknowledging biological and individual complexity. They always have to have a cheap answer to eliminate any challenge to their staid worldview.

---

Yes, a challenge to my staid worldview…that's definitely not the pot calling the kettle black with a cheap answer.

I have lesbian and non-binary family members. I probably don't know what's going on in their lives and just need a shortcut to underst, oh wait I do know about trauma they suffered and what their lives are like now too.

This is where you say, 'not all lgbtq+ people have that' as you retreat into motte and bailey tactics. Early exposure to porn, anxiety, and a great many other shifting sands contribute as well. There are plenty of datapoints that don't require reading back into history your own lived experience and projecting your thought process on them.

I for one think it's progress that we're comparing being gay to drinking bleach rather than molesting children or banging dogs for once. This forum is woke as hell these days! The Respect for Marriage Act passing congress didn't even register here!

Is there such a thing as objective right and wrong? Natural and unnatural?

Bob Lee said:

---

Is there such a thing as objective right and wrong? Natural and unnatural?

---

in a religious, God given objectively right / wrong / natural / unnatural sense? I don't believe in it.

And lots of people do believe in those things. I don't believe it is contradictory to believe in objective right / wrong while also having the humility to accept that you might be wrong.

Beer Baron said:

---

I for one think it's progress that we're comparing being gay to drinking bleach rather than molesting children or banging dogs for once. This forum is woke as hell these days! The Respect for Marriage Act passing congress didn't even register here!

---

Nothing is more obtuse than the "how dare you compare being gay to ______!" game.

Beer Baron said:

---

I don't not believe you, I just don't see why you think LGBT people can't live rich, vibrant, fulfilled lives.

---

Part of the reason I think that LGBT people are far less likely than non LGBT people to live rich, vibrant, flourishing lives is research I have seen, and part is anecdotal.

The mental health results, longevity of relationships, monogamy within relationships (with the exception of the L) are all far lower than the general population. Suicide rates are far, far higher than in the general population.

fat girlfriend said:

---

Beer Baron said:

---

I for one think it's progress that we're comparing being gay to drinking bleach rather than molesting children or banging dogs for once. This forum is woke as hell these days! The Respect for Marriage Act passing congress didn't even register here!

---

Nothing is more obtuse than the "how dare you compare being gay to ______!" game.

---

What about making the ridiculous comparison in the first place?

I'm sure none of that has anything to do with things like being disowned by families, treated differently or bullied by the public, or having your very existence and rights debated ad nauseam by total strangers. The acceptance you rail against goes a long way toward fixing a lot of those issues.

Beer Baron said:

---

I'm sure none of that has anything to do with things like being disowned by families, treated differently or bullied by the public, or having your very existence and rights debated ad nauseam by total strangers. The acceptance you rail against goes a long way toward fixing a lot of those issues.

---

Tolerance or acceptance? Big difference IMO.

Beer Baron said:

---

I'm sure none of that has anything to do with things like being disowned by families, treated differently or bullied by the public, or having your very existence and rights debated ad nauseam by total strangers. The acceptance you rail against goes a long way toward fixing a lot of those issues.

---

If you're right, yes. If I am right, the acceptance that you think will help people will only serve to send more people down a path of life that will lead to pain and frustration. Our disagreement matters. I'm really not mad about it, but I do believe that what you think, if taught, hurts people. Just as, I know, you think the same about me.

For sure. Both make life better than outright condemnation and scorn.

You're right there. The difference is I don't think we should legislate against people who think like you or have a discussion about your mental health. If you're happy with how you live, even if I think it's ridiculous, fine. I'm glad youre happy. Some reciprocity would be nice.

kurt vonnegut said:

---

fat girlfriend said:

---

Beer Baron said:

---

I can't imagine why someone who isn't one of these two people would care about this.

---

I can tell you why I care about it, if it helps. I worry you won't believe me, but I'm just telling the unfiltered truth regarding my motivations.

I teach college kids. I have kids. I deeply want rich, vibrant, flourishing, good lives for them. Our dominant culture is teaching them, in my view, contradictory claims about identity, sexuality, gender, and human nature. I think people are being hurt because as a culture we're accepting not merely false, but obviously false (because contradictory) claims about human nature and sexuality.


(By the way, when I type that, I don't feel anger. Truly. I feel like I would feel if I moved to a culture where the practice of polygamy was widely accepted. Precisely BECAUSE I care about my friends and neighbors, I would want to help them see how the practice of polygamy hurt their lives and their communities.)

---

What I read above is "some people disagree with me and that bothers me".

---

Social conservatism can be summed up in that one sentence right there.

Beer Baron said:

---

You're right there. The difference is I don't think we should legislate against people who think like you or have a discussion about your mental health. If you're happy with how you live, even if I think it's ridiculous, fine. I'm glad youre happy. Some reciprocity would be nice.

---

I always think it' rich when proponents of the new civic religion accuse traditional religious folk of being pushy about their beliefs.

I didn't start a thread complaining about religious people being damaged and unfulfilled and living in a way that displeases me. I'd love it if my doing boring things like being married and talking openly about my husband wasn't the topic of so much debate and fascination by outsiders, but here we are, in a thread you started, talking about it.