Thinly veiled excuse to take a dump on Church Magisterium. I'm sitting on pins and needles waiting to see what's going to happen now that the Vatican has solicited the opinions of Catholics who rarely or never practice their faith, non-Catholics, minorities, and LGBTQ Catholics, on how to create a different Church.

Our Chancery released an online survey after the discussion I went to in person. Guess they didn't get the answers they were looking for from the in person discussions.

"Hey so now that we have had a few generations of abysmal catechesis, let's get the opinion of the poorly catechized laity on the direction Holy Mother Church should take. We of course hope that those mean trads don't show up but we will do our best to ignore them if they do. We will also pair all of this with the worst aesthetics imaginable."

Bob Lee said:

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Thinly veiled excuse to take a dump on Church Magisterium. I'm sitting on pins and needles waiting to see what's going to happen now that the Vatican has solicited the opinions of Catholics who rarely or never practice their faith, non-Catholics, minorities, and LGBTQ Catholics, on how to create a different Church.

Our Chancery released an online survey after the discussion I went to in person. Guess they didn't get the answers they were looking for from the in person discussions.

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We held ours in person and we had 3 people show up that were not even part of the parish. They were former members of the Church and just wanted to complain.

Edit: For the record, LGBTQ stuff was not mentioned in any of the answers. At all. If anything, our Parish is demanding that our diocese do a better job fighting the LGBTQ agenda.

I don't trust the "Synodal" process. It seems too open to being manipulated by people with bad agendas.

If it were up to the majority, Humanae Vitae would never have been published and The Church would have accepted, then embraced contraception.

The Church's teachings and positions should never be up for anything that looks like a vote.

Truth is not subject to vote.

PabloSerna said:

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FYI - I post these events, because they are significant in the life of the Church. A lot of people are assuming things and when you combine that with ignorance - you run into trouble.

As hard as it may be for some of you - brothers/sisters in Christ - listen and hear what this is really all about.

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The optics aren't good.

1. This is in the wake of Traditionis Custodes, a huge punch to the gut for me and a lot of other Catholics.
2. The whole synodal process was at first apparently self-selecting for practicing Catholics, but more widely disseminated and advertised to certain groups which the preparatory documents specifically mention. Not once did I hear about this through my parish. It was not in any church bulletin. Nothing.
3. How exactly does Pope Francis know that Synodality is what's expected of the Church in the new millennium? That's counter intuitive at a time in our history when objective moral Truth is more widely rejected than at any time in the history of the Church. Seems to me we should double down on the reliance on thousands of years of Church teaching at a time like this.

Maybe we should all join together at the diocesan level and sit through classes on Thomistic philosophy, Beatitude, man's ultimate end, the human person, how we should understand rights, and what those rights mean our obligations are to our families and each other. I think that is what is demanded of us in the new millennium. In order to properly examine our consciences, we need to have well trained consciences. Why are we soliciting the opinions of people who have a warped understanding about what is virtuous and what is vicious? What do they have to contribute?

Please tell us in succinct, discrete sentences what you think it's actually for. Until then, I will treat the obviously intended ambiguity of the whole thing as a likely vehicle for a liberal faction to "progress" the church how they see fit.

This article lays it out how everyone I know sees it - the progressives organizing it are all for it, everyone else is skeptical to say the least and already see the warning signs with the German Synod and Cdl. Hollerich.
https://www.cal-catholic.com/how-much-cardinal-hollerich-will-guide-the-synod/


Women can't be ordained. Gay relationships cannot be blessed. These are not in the churches power to approve and any attempt will 100% result in either revolt or schism.

God showed us the way when he made Man and Woman and said it was good.
He showed us the way through out the entirety of human existence where this deviant behavior was never excused, tolerated or defended.
The Holy Scriptures are explicit in this area.
There is a reason why 70+ Bishops have warned that the synod will lead to schism.
This synod is a product of the spirit of the age and and not of the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit will not contradict himself.
In the end there will be a lot of puffery about the process and those involved. There will be some vague, seemingly permissive writings that will neither confirm Catholic Teaching or any changes to it. The people who continue to break with the faith and tradition of our father's will continue down the wide and broad path to destruction and those who hold fast to the faith and tradition will continue to suffer under the tyranny of the modernist for a short time longer. In the end the Immaculate Heart of Our Lady will triumph and she will crush the serpent and his seed under her heel.

PabloSerna said:

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God did make Man and Woman, no one is arguing otherwise. What is becoming more apparent as science (LINK) is discovering - is that there is more information to be factored into this reality. St. John Paul II's encyclical, Fiedes et Ratio assures us that science and faith are proper to a full understanding. Let us not shut down the science and the people experiencing this in their lives. Don't you think?

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JPII spent his entire Papacy keeping nonsense like this out of the Church. Do you really think he would support this foolishness for one instance. Seriously? This garbage has only one source and that is Satan. It is not scientific and there is no logic or reason to be found in it.

PabloSerna said:

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God did make Man and Woman, no one is arguing otherwise. What is becoming more apparent as science (LINK) is discovering - is that there is more information to be factored into this reality. St. John Paul II's encyclical, Fiedes et Ratio assures us that science and faith are proper to a full understanding. Let us not shut down the science and the people experiencing this in their lives. Don't you think?

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You can read an infinite amount of scientific literature and none of that will give you an ethical framework required for many of the current LBGTQ plus whatever issues. Once again people don't understand this basic principle but they think "new data" will better equip them with making these decisions or supporting someone. It's pretty sad to see it happening at a larger scale today but this is what happens when people lack the correct worldview laid out by divine revelation and passed down through Holy Tradition.

Anyways, Trad Catholics always have an open door to the Orthodox Church. You can get away from this evil in the church and let those who lack wisdom bring destruction to their churches and family.

"Roman Catholics, in the midst of a disintegrating church structure, are finding that Orthodoxy is everything they once thought Roman Catholicism to be." - Fr. Seraphim Rose

Serious question.

Does the RCC catechism take a stance on the inerrancy of the Bible?

If it claims that the Bible is the inspired and inerrant word of God, the "discussion" should be pretty short.

cavscout96 said:

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Serious question.

Does the RCC catechism take a stance on the inerrancy of the Bible?

If it claims that the Bible is the inspired and inerrant word of God, the "discussion" should be pretty short.

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Yes, we hold the Scriptures to be inerrant.

Scientific literature does not impinge on or inform an ethical framework. No amount of scientific discovery is going to "provide new information to be factored into this reality." I have no idea what you even think that means.

PabloSerna said:

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Pleased cite the scripture that discusses love between people of the same sex - freely given, freely received, and lived out in a chaste, loving relationship.

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you are familiar with the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, yes?

as to the "manner" in which sin is committed, take out "same sex" and replace it with "unmarried," or even "adulterous."

is it OK if I commit any other sin if I do it "lovingly?"

I'm not denying science, I'm saying how you're using the word makes no sense.

Science is a process which generates ever-improving models to predict material phenomena in the world. It can add knowledge in the form of testable, repeatable information. Science says nothing whatever about ethics.

There is no amount of testable, repeatable information about the material creation that can inform the spiritual and divine teachings of the Church.

Science will never define for you what should be factored into the reality of Man and Woman. At this point politics masquerading as Science has fouled itself up so badly it can't even make those definitions for itself. Science can tell you about chromosomes and pelvic sizes and median brain shapes and observed patterns of behavior - but of course the Church understands Man and Woman in advance of these.

The process of making categories for things is not a scientific one. Categories are rational, they are immaterial, they are conceptual. Science provides information for making decisions when forming categories, and it can use logic and testing to sort things into defined categories, but it can never tell you what those categories should be - most especially when the categories in question are metaphysical!

In which part of the "reality" of Man and Woman can Science presume to lecture the Church? Can Science teach the Church about the Incarnation, about the Trinity, about the Body of Christ, about the union of Heaven and Earth? And yet aren't these all Man and Woman?

St Paul and St Peter did not turn to Science to understand the mystery of the nations coming to the Church. There is no amount of scientific information - genetic testing, blood types, haplogroups, Y-DNA, whatever - which will inform this understanding.

I have no issue with the Synodal approach - it would be bizarre for an Orthodox Christian to object to it, as it is both canonical and the root of issue that caused the schism between East and West.

Quote:

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Right now, people who love God are being told God does not love them. That they are not welcomed in the house of God and that they are the work of Satan. But don't take my word for it - read or better yet - talk to them yourself. We had a wonderful person on here trying to share their story and we drove them away. Nice going - how Christian of us.

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This is a really bad argument, and you should feel bad for making it. The RCC does not teach that God does not love anyone or that anyone is unwelcome to the chalice. So if this is the problem, this requires no "fine tuning" or synod full stop.

It's further bad because it implies that those who would oppose the direction the RCC is moving with people like you enthusiastically cheering it on are against loving and welcoming people to the Church. You should not accuse your brethren like this.

"We" didn't drive away Pacifist. In fact Pacifist posted here for years and the general tone of the forum was one of overwhelming personal care even from people who do not agree with the beliefs, practices, or decisions which were ongoing. Again, this is uncharitable from you and does not pertain to the issue at hand.

What teaching specifically do you think needs to be fine tuned, and how does Science provide more information to factor into that reality? Let's start there.

Orthodox Texan said:

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PabloSerna said:

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God did make Man and Woman, no one is arguing otherwise. What is becoming more apparent as science (LINK) is discovering - is that there is more information to be factored into this reality. St. John Paul II's encyclical, Fiedes et Ratio assures us that science and faith are proper to a full understanding. Let us not shut down the science and the people experiencing this in their lives. Don't you think?

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You can read an infinite amount of scientific literature and none of that will give you an ethical framework required for many of the current LBGTQ plus whatever issues. Once again people don't understand this basic principle but they think "new data" will better equip them with making these decisions or supporting someone. It's pretty sad to see it happening at a larger scale today but this is what happens when people lack the correct worldview laid out by divine revelation and passed down through Holy Tradition.

Anyways, Trad Catholics always have an open door to the Orthodox Church. You can get away from this evil in the church and let those who lack wisdom bring destruction to their churches and family.

"Roman Catholics, in the midst of a disintegrating church structure, are finding that Orthodoxy is everything they once thought Roman Catholicism to be." - Fr. Seraphim Rose

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I have a great love for my Eastern brothers and sincerely desire our reconciliation. That said, I (by the grace of God) will never leave the Barque of Peter, nor should any Catholic.

May the Blessed Mother, the Theotokos, inspire the reunion of her children from the East and the West.

PabloSerna said:

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Pleased cite the scripture that discusses love between people of the same sex - freely given, freely received, and lived out in a chaste, loving relationship.

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If there's a sexual component, a relationship between two members of the same sex cannot be chaste.

You're attempting to create something out of thin air that simply does not exist. You want to fall back on the lack of direct scripture verses...you're Catholic. There's a whole 2 millennia of Magisterium that you want to ignore.

cavscout96 said:

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wbt5845 said:

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cavscout96 said:

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Serious question.

Does the RCC catechism take a stance on the inerrancy of the Bible?

If it claims that the Bible is the inspired and inerrant word of God, the "discussion" should be pretty short.

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Since the Roman Catholic Church wrote the Bible, the answer would obviously be yes.

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apparently not as obvious as you might think if these types of discussions are supported/sanctioned.

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It has become necessary to distinguish between the creed and the adherence by members, including clergy, to said creed. For as long as I can remember, high profile individuals have oft stated "I am Catholic, but..." going on to contradict a portion of the creed. Bishops and even popes have done likewise in the history of the Church. I imagine that Catholics are not the only ones to experience this phenomenon among their faithful and clergy.

In a dysfunctional manner, we have an undisciplined Jean-Claude Cardinal Hollerich, S.J. who is on record stating that Holy Church must amend Her teaching regarding a number of pelvic issues.

In a functional manner, my pastor fired the DRE who blasphemed Our Blessed Lord.

PabloSerna said:

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Fruit = tree

ETA: Proselytize has no place here. Also, before popping off, about something you know nothing about, in this case an encyclical by a canonized saint no less, you should read it cover to cover. Here is his main point and something I believe makes complete sense: "Faith and Reason are like two wings of the human spirit by which is soars to the truth."

You seem to be saying that no amount of scientific literature or new data, as you put it, will give you an ethical framework of the current LBGTQ plus whatever issues (how respectful). Please get to know some LGBTQ folks that match your level of spirituality and education. They may not be of your Church - but they may enlighten you.

I for one, am glad, that my Church is listening, is in dialogue. If this scares the faithful, they should ask themselves, why? Are we not guided by the Holy Spirit (JN 14:26).

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Well for starters I don't accept him as a saint because there is no true justification for it. You have Trads who despise what is going on (rightfully so) and yet have to accept whatever the Pope puts out. Even as "saint" Catherine of Siena mentioned obeying the Pope even if He was the incarnate devil. This is the logical end for Catholics and the initial outcomes are in plain sight right now. It's so obvious but sadly many Catholics won't go very far into the great schism and fall prey to the idea of Peter and the keys. So unfortunately they are bound to this and will inevitably fall to idol worship but at least it's all in the open now and they can be honest about their loyalty which goes anywhere with the Pope (not Christ). Some will get out, as I've seen even at my local parish and they get to worship Christ as we all did at one time in the past. First amount equals is not the same as muh keys and papal authority.

You are not guided by the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is in the Orthodox Church, not the RCC. There is a cognitive dissonance with the trads but like I said above some will get out and some will continue to be led by whatever it is this current Pope is heading toward. I guess it's some sort of LBGTQ utopia or something. The same as some of the Lutherans and Methodists. All nonsense and not Christian. I've never heard one enlightening thing from a member of that community. All just individualism/classical liberalism mushed together to allow them the their own justification for pursuing whatever they want (or more accurately allowing passions to drive their identity). They worship themselves so ya I wouldn't take any advice from them when it comes to Christian theology or history because it's painfully obvious they they have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.