Happy Monday morning y'all

I have some family members that's been forever ELCA and I was raised ELCA. The little country church that some family is a member of got rid of their old SJW pastor but the ELCA appointed an interim minister who is arguably more of a SJW type.

I'm lucky that the pastor of my church hasn't bought into the bull**** and my family members just listen to him on the Internet.

Some people in my family members church are considering leaving the ELCA or just try and hire a more conservative pastor.

My argument is you can't leave or get a better pastor if their church has a bunch of leftists and they need to be ran out, but that idea doesn't sit well with a lot of people.

What some conservative options to the ELCA? From what I understand the Missouri synod is pretty hardcore and nuts.

Any info is welcome, thanks y'all

LCMS, AALC or WELS.

I wouldn't describer any as hardcore or nuts.

Hardcore and nuts? Do you have any things or attributes of practice of LCMS that makes you say that? If you don't then maybe you should reject that thought until you gain knowledge that proves it true. Not trying to be insulting but pointing out you may have a notion of something not based on logic that creates a hurdle for no reason.

WELS is the most conservative and practices closed communion and depending on location, it may be difficult to find a church. It has a strong patriarchal system.

LCMS, what I am, is conservative. There is a theological doctrine that all LCMS churches must adhere to. The president of LCMS has turned down multi-faith prayer opportunities. LCMS has been in "talks" for years to get cross-communion rights with the catholic and WELS. LCMS doesn't believe in legislating religion and believes in a 2 sphere system: earthly and heavenly. LCMS churches have different types of worship depending on church and time of service (traditional or contemporary).

LCMS also has closed communion.

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My argument is you can't leave or get a better pastor if their church has a bunch of leftists and they need to be ran out, but that idea doesn't sit well with a lot of people.

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Yeah, it's understandable that it doesn't sit well that you're wanting to essentially build church bodies based on political ideology. Your statement would be as equally offensive to a Christian if it talked about needing to run out a bunch of "rightists".

Why can't I reject the current political ideology? The ELCA has to be top down nuts. It's not grass roots.

I was referencing the Missouri synod

Fishin Texas Aggie 05 said:

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I was referencing the Missouri synod

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What do you think is hardcore and nuts about Missouri synod?

Fishin Texas Aggie 05 said:

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Why can't I reject the current political ideology? The ELCA has to be top down nuts. It's not grass roots.

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Nobody said you can't "reject the current political ideology". My issue is with you wanting to drive people...brothers and sisters in Christ who bear God's divine image...out of your church because you hold different views as it relates to man's political ideologies.

You're looking for a "confessional" church that holds their clergy to the Book of Concord. The pastor cannot go off the rails - teaching SJW dogma, marrying gays, and other liberal nonsense that has infected the church - without being subject to discipline.

LCMS is the largest such Lutheran denomination.

Fishin Texas Aggie 05 said:

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I was referencing the Missouri synod

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Yes that is the LCMS. I threw in the WELS comment as another established Lutheran church with doctrine based organization. Anyone who thinks LCMS is hardcore, would by simple transitory principles have to think WELS hardcore too.

I think the issue you are having highlights the difference between a "doctrine" based organization and one that isn't. It is akin to a constitutional republic versus a republic. The republic form is much more adaptable and is often not caught "behind the times". However, given sufficient time, the republic is more prone to theological decay that destroys the church. On the other hand "doctrine" based organizations like LCMS have to live with splitting in order to stay true to "doctrine" and purge themselves of church of teachings they believe incompatible with the bible. (That is how ELCA was formed, a division among the LCMS seminary)

To powerbelly: LCMS churches practice varying degrees of closed communion. Some are fully closed, others are not.

from what i was told the LCMS required confessions, closed communion , and no women could participate in a leadership position.

those were the things i understood and were offputting to me

Fishin Texas Aggie 05 said:

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from what i was told the LCMS required confessions, closed communion , and no women could participate in a leadership position.

those were the things i understood and were offputting to me

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Women are allowed to lead humanly established officein LCMS. You should look at the LCMS website, they have very clear positions and reasonings.

Fishin Texas Aggie 05 said:

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from what i was told the LCMS required confessions, closed communion , and no women could participate in a leadership position.

those were the things i understood and were offputting to me

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2000 years of Christian tradition tends to be offputting to some. 6000 years if you want to include the B.C. portion of the religion.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Fishin Texas Aggie 05 said:

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from what i was told the LCMS required confessions, closed communion , and no women could participate in a leadership position.

those were the things i understood and were offputting to me

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2000 years of Christian tradition tends to be offputting to some. 6000 years if you want to include the B.C. portion of the religion.

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Truth my friend.

Fishin Texas Aggie 05 said:

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Why can't I reject the current political ideology? The ELCA has to be top down nuts. It's not grass roots.

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I hear you on this. I can certainly appreciate people having different political viewpoints: it is when they begin to reject Jesus as savior and Lord that I have problems with their church establishment. These older flatline denominations are in decline so a move to a more traditional denomination might be a great idea for you and your family. Just be careful, please because the more evangelical churches also tend to build a cult around successful pastors, which is not healthy.

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Fishin Texas Aggie 05 said:

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from what i was told the LCMS required confessions, closed communion , and no women could participate in a leadership position.

those were the things i understood and were offputting to me

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2000 years of Christian tradition tends to be offputting to some. 6000 years if you want to include the B.C. portion of the religion.

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Truth my friend.

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Catholic heads exploding

Joe Boudain said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Fishin Texas Aggie 05 said:

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from what i was told the LCMS required confessions, closed communion , and no women could participate in a leadership position.

those were the things i understood and were offputting to me

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2000 years of Christian tradition tends to be offputting to some. 6000 years if you want to include the B.C. portion of the religion.

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Truth my friend.

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Catholic heads exploding

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Roman Catholic, maybe, but to them only some traditions matter.

Another congregant in a liberal church okay liberal theology until the line is crossed so bad even the tolerant are upset. Then you judge conservatives churches as crazy.

Before you search for a church read Luther, Augustine and Pascal. Try the new book "Why we are restless"
I would encourage you to gain some perspective on humanity and historic theology, Your cowboy shooting things down with so little reflection maybe the bigger issue.

I love these old school conservative synods and denominations because they try to follow the Bible and classic Augustine Christianity.

The ELCA is not evangelical and pays little mind to Luther.

Even if you put political leanings aside, ELCA has changed from a doctrinal standpoint where it no longer looks Lutheran in any way.


I am LCMS. if no lcms churches were available, I'd go to WELS, AALC.. and I don't know what else.

PaulTony said:

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Another congregant in a liberal church okay liberal theology until the line is crossed so bad even the tolerant are upset. Then you judge conservatives churches as crazy.

Before you search for a church read Luther, Augustine and Pascal. Try the new book "Why we are restless"
I would encourage you to gain some perspective on humanity and historic theology, Your cowboy shooting things down with so little reflection maybe the bigger issue.

I love these old school conservative synods and denominations because they try to follow the Bible and classic Augustine Christianity.

The ELCA is not evangelical and pays little mind to Luther.

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So you agree with Augustine's thoughts on eternal torment hell? And that unbaptized babies go there? And coercion for conversion? And sex in marriage only for procreation? And that his theology was used by Calvin to create double predestination?

He was brilliant and a great Christian theologian but had several theologies that I find troubling,

dermdoc said:

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PaulTony said:

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Another congregant in a liberal church okay liberal theology until the line is crossed so bad even the tolerant are upset. Then you judge conservatives churches as crazy.

Before you search for a church read Luther, Augustine and Pascal. Try the new book "Why we are restless"
I would encourage you to gain some perspective on humanity and historic theology, Your cowboy shooting things down with so little reflection maybe the bigger issue.

I love these old school conservative synods and denominations because they try to follow the Bible and classic Augustine Christianity.

The ELCA is not evangelical and pays little mind to Luther.

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So you agree with Augustine's thoughts on eternal torment hell? And that unbaptized babies go there? And coercion for conversion? And sex in marriage only for procreation? And that his theology was used by Calvin to create double predestination?

He was brilliant and a great Christian theologian but had several theologies that I find troubling,

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I guess they didn't read the OT passage about the child of David and Bathshebe dying and David's response:

2 Samuel 12:

21 Then his servants said to him, "What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food." 22 He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, p'Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' 23 But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, qbut he will not return to me."

Fishin Texas Aggie 05 said:

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from what i was told the LCMS required confessions, closed communion , and no women could participate in a leadership position.

those were the things i understood and were offputting to me

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communion is closed (as it should be) and private confession is encouraged, not mandated.

confession is part of the liturgy, but its not like you are confessing specific stuff in front of the pastor or. congregation.

women's role in the church varies, but none as ordained pastor's. I cant vote in my church but I can serve on leadership committees and teach in Sunday school.

LCMS here

ROFL @ Protestants here

Mark me down as another Lutheran that was raised ECLA, but is now LCMS. Sounds like LCMS might be more of what you are looking for.

Joe Boudain said:

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I think you left out the Inquisition, the slaughter of Lollards, Waldensians, Huguenots, Savonarola, and persecution of those trying to get the word of God into the hands of the common people, such as Wycliffe and Jan Hus, who wrote his commentary on the greedy Catholic clergy of his day:

" One pays for confession, for Mass, for the sacrament, for indulgences, for churching a woman, for a blessing, for burials, for funeral services and prayers. The very last penny which an old woman has hidden in her bundle for fear of thieves or robbery will not be saved. The villainous priest will grab it."


There are valid and manifold reasons for Christians to have left the medieval Catholic Church and worship according to the dictates of their conscience. It does you no credit to summarily dismiss, ignore or trivialize them without examining those reasons.

UTExan said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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I think you left out the Inquisition, the slaughter of Lollards, Waldensians, Huguenots, Savonarola, and persecution of those trying to get the word of God into the hands of the common people, such as Wycliffe and Jan Hus, who wrote his commentary on the greedy Catholic clergy of his day:

" One pays for confession, for Mass, for the sacrament, for indulgences, for churching a woman, for a blessing, for burials, for funeral services and prayers. The very last penny which an old woman has hidden in her bundle for fear of thieves or robbery will not be saved. The villainous priest will grab it."


There are valid and manifold reasons for Christians to have left the medieval Catholic Church and worship according to the dictates of their conscience. It does you no credit to summarily dismiss, ignore or trivialize them without examining those reasons.

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You're mentioning reasons for reform not for divorce. There are zero reasons for abandoning the body of Christ to do your own thing. Much of modern Protestant theology exists bereft of any tradition or reason other than merely to separate themselves from the Orthodox catholic belief.

Much as after the death of Christ the Jews defined themselves as those by negation of Christ, Protestantism defines themselves as negation of Catholicism.

Instead of one pope you have millions. When you divorce once, the second is even easier.

This is why the sale of indulgences was the only thing Protestants have changed.

Also, the post you responded to didn't trivialize the initial reasons. It shows the outcome.

" There are zero reasons for abandoning the body of Christ to do your own thing. "

You must have missed my entire post. By your logic, early Christians would have continued attending the very synagogues from which they had been cast out. Also, there is a difference between the actual body of believers and the corporation which calls itself "church".

UTExan said:

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" There are zero reasons for abandoning the body of Christ to do your own thing. "

You must have missed my entire post. By your logic, early Christians would have continued attending the very synagogues from which they had been cast out. Also, there is a difference between the actual body of believers and the corporation which calls itself "church".

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No, those are people doing bad things in the church. The church is the unsullied bride of Christ. Imagine if everyone had left Peter after he denied Christ three times when Christ needed him most.

The Church needed a reformation within and not without the Church, and it got one through the ministrations of St Francis, St.John of The Cross, St Theresa of Jesus, and countless others, guided by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ founded my Church on the Apostles headed by St Peter. Protestantism left that, and changed everything to make sure it was in no way recognizable with Catholicism.

Hence the "how it started" and "how it's going" meme

Joe Boudain said:

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Jesus Christ founded my Church on the Apostles headed by St Peter. Protestantism left that, and changed everything to make sure it was in no way recognizable with Catholicism.

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Many of these Protestants profess the same Nicene creed that the Roman Catholic liturgy uses every Sunday during worship, saying they changed everything isn't entirely fair.

Joe Boudain said:

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UTExan said:

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" There are zero reasons for abandoning the body of Christ to do your own thing. "

You must have missed my entire post. By your logic, early Christians would have continued attending the very synagogues from which they had been cast out. Also, there is a difference between the actual body of believers and the corporation which calls itself "church".

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No, those are people doing bad things in the church. The church is the unsullied bride of Christ. Imagine if everyone had left Peter after he denied Christ three times when Christ needed him most.

The Church needed a reformation within and not without the Church, and it got one through the ministrations of St Francis, St.John of The Cross, St Theresa of Jesus, and countless others, guided by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ founded my Church on the Apostles headed by St Peter. Protestantism left that, and changed everything to make sure it was in no way recognizable with Catholicism.

Hence the "how it started" and "how it's going" meme

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I assume Father Martin would be the 'how it's going' part?

LCMS would be an excellent alternative. I attended a school tied to LCMS and it built my faith in Christ at a young age.