1 John 2:15-17 ESV
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the worldthe desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessionsis not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

James 4:4 ESV
You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

John 15:18 ESV
"If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.

John 16:33 ESV
I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world."

John 12:31 ESV
Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

1 John 5:19 ESV
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

John 1:10 ESV
He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.

Luke 4 5-8 ESV
5 And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, 6 and said to him, "To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. 7 If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours." 8 And Jesus answered him, "It is written,
"'You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.'"

1 John 4:4 ESV
Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.


So, who is of the world and who does the world love and who does it hate? It's not a difficult determination.

What is your working definition of the world? What do you think St John meant when he used that word?

Important baseline.

Zobel said:

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Im not sure how to respond to this post. It is kind of strange coming from someone who is so allergic to the mixing of politics and religion.

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I believe that religious leaders who engage in political activism are acting contrary to Jesus' example and that they have lost the focus of saving souls and are wasting time trying to salvage an unsalvageable world.

I am not, however, a religious leader preaching from a pulpit.

Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. Obama was a serial liar and on matters of significant importance, unlike exaggerating the size of a crowd at an inauguration. Or Biden lying by claiming that his military leaders told him that Bagram wasn't needed.

PacifistAg said:

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So non-leaders can engage in politics? I noticed you only pointed out one side of the partisan aisle, while the one who most recently represented the other side was a serial adulterer, narcissistic, and also a habitual liar.

But why can non-leaders engage, but not leaders? If doing so means one falls short of Christ's example, then that would apply to all followers. Of course, Kingdom politics, which Christ was very vocal about, don't align with any of man's politics.

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Trump was no saint, but I disagree with the narrative that he was a compulsive liar while serving as president. It's also noteworthy that "the world" hated/hates Trump. Of course, Trump was/is pro-life and pro-Israel, and the world loves abortion and hates Israel.

Religious leaders will lose followers by preaching politics. Besides, they can achieve quality change in their communities by sticking to what the bible says. A preacher doesn't have to say that abortion is immoral. He can simply remind attendees that one of God's commandments is "Do not kill".

Community leaders and normal citizens and Christians can and SHOULD engage in politics in order to have a quality society. If a religious leader wants to engage in political activism, then they should step away from the pulpit and become a politician.

Good post. And remember, just because the world hates you, it doesn't mean you're right or following the way of Christ. The world may simply hate you because you're an abrasive asshat. I hear that verse trotted out and misused far too often.

dermdoc said:

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Politics aside, I am going to try to tackle the op.

First of all, money and wealth are good things. As is sex in marriage. As is good wine and beer without drunkenness and debauchery.

What the world and Satan does is distort all of those things into greed, lust, whatever. He makes great God given things into addictions and evil.

I believe we are to enjoy all of God's gift and shine our light for the world to see. Not to withdraw, but to be an example of how to use God's gifts, including spiritual gifts which are often neglected.

Scripture says all of us have a spiritual gift. Mine is encouragement and healing. It is key for you to identify what your gift is so you can use it better for the glory of God.

So be in the world but not of the world. Enjoy financial success, be generous, and leave an inheritance of your children and grandchildren. Enjoy a nice meal, good wine, and fellowship. Enjoy your family. Enjoy the gift of sex in your marriage. Just do not distort any of these good gifts from God into idols,

All of this is the key to the abundant, content life. And sure we will suffer some. Jesus told us we would. But if you trust completely in Him you can endure. And even find comfort, peace, and joy.

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Sounds good to me. I believe as Christians we must discern between that which is Godly and that which is not.

Agree. And I struggled with that for a long time.

Solved it by reading the Bible daily, more prayer time, and listening to the Holy Spirit.

And very much helped by my small group. Every Friday am Bible study with like minded believers. Fellowship is important.

dermdoc said:

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Agree. And I struggled with that for a long time.

Solved it by reading the Bible daily, more prayer time, and listening to the Holy Spirit.

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Amen!

M1Buckeye said:

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Zobel said:

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What is your working definition of the world? What do you think St John meant when he used that word?

Important baseline.

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I believe that Jesus was referring to the fact that Satan is the leader of this world and so much of the world is deceived and engages in immoral activities. Those that do are often loved by "the world". Take Barack Obama. He was a serial liar and the world certainly loved him. The media always advocated for and protected Obama, even when he was caught in serious lies. Another example is the BLM movement. It's a corrupt movement built on lies. The vast majority of the money raised goes to BLM activists and Democratic politicians while very little of it actually goes to help poor black people. Lebron James is another example of someone who is "of the world" and who is loved by the world. There are many more.

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Beyond the absurd partisan slant, there's no actual definition here. I don't recall anyone at any point in the Bible claiming that Satan was the leader of the world. That alone would invalidate the omnipotence of God. You seem to ignore the very real, very human and earthly actions of Jesus that were important enough to be recorded. Such as healing physical illnesses, sharing goods with the disciples, providing food, etc. What's the point if the physical world has no value?

Seriously? You don't think the devil could have lied? Okay Maybe I missed something when I went to church all those years

Sapper Redux said:

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Seriously? You don't think the devil could have lied? Okay Maybe I missed something when I went to church all those years

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Christ didn't challenge Satan's claim. Not to mention, in Paul's 2nd letter to Corinth, Satan is described as the "god of this world".

Perhaps

In the beginning God granted authority to man over creation, man succumbed that authority by enslavement of sin. Jesus calls Satan the ruler of this world in John 16:11. According to Ephesians 2:2, people who fail to trust in and follow Jesus walk "according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." In 2 Corinthians 4:4, the Bible refers to Satan as 'the god of this age."

Now this doesn't threaten the omnipotentance of God, because Satan is still subject to him and his divine authority. As we see with Job when he needs God's permission to test him. As Christians our enemies are the world, the flesh and the devil. He is given authority, dominion, and the ability to tempt us, so that we can grow in holiness .

Thanks for reminding me why I left Christianity. There's not much appealing about that approach to life.

PacifistAg said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Seriously? You don't think the devil could have lied? Okay Maybe I missed something when I went to church all those years

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Christ didn't challenge Satan's claim. Not to mention, in Paul's 2nd letter to Corinth, Satan is described as the "god of this world".

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If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. This disturbs me more, however.

Sapper Redux said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Zobel said:

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What is your working definition of the world? What do you think St John meant when he used that word?

Important baseline.

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I believe that Jesus was referring to the fact that Satan is the leader of this world and so much of the world is deceived and engages in immoral activities. Those that do are often loved by "the world". Take Barack Obama. He was a serial liar and the world certainly loved him. The media always advocated for and protected Obama, even when he was caught in serious lies. Another example is the BLM movement. It's a corrupt movement built on lies. The vast majority of the money raised goes to BLM activists and Democratic politicians while very little of it actually goes to help poor black people. Lebron James is another example of someone who is "of the world" and who is loved by the world. There are many more.

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I don't recall anyone at any point in the Bible claiming that Satan was the leader of the world.

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Please go back and re-read the bible verses that I provided in my OP.

The world is not bad. It was created good, even very good. Humans were created to act as God's regents in the world and participate in God's ongoing creative, ordering activities.

After the fall(s) the world is under the influence of sin and demons, and humans acting under the same. The entirety of the OT is the story of God acting to redeem the world, first through individual humans, through the family of Abraham, and ultimately through a new nation of people, a mixed multitude from many races, redeemed from slavery. That nation worked inside a purified area, a zone of reclaimed world, purified continuously by sacrifice from sin.

The Lord became incarnate to continue this work, and through Him a new nation of people, a mixed multitude from all nations, is formed, redeemed from slavery to sin and death. Through these people the redemptive and creative act of God is continued, as we become His Body, to represent and let His work continue through us, to redeem the good world. This is why St Paul says all creation is groaning and waiting for what it may one day become.

The world is not evil. Teaching this is a form of Gnosticism.

Zobel said:

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The world is not evil. Teaching this is a form of Gnosticism.

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So the bible verses in my OP are mistaken?

1 John 5:19 ESV

We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

To wit:

I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently.

And another place..
Yours, O LORD, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the splendor and the majesty, for everything in heaven and on earth belongs to You. Yours, O LORD, is the kingdom, and You are exalted as head over all

And
The earth is the LORD's, and the fullness thereof, the world and all who dwell therein.

And
The heavens are Yours, and also the earth. The earth and its fullness You founded

And
Behold, to the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, and the earth and everything in it

And
Who has given to Me that I should repay him? Everything under heaven is Mine.

M1Buckeye said:

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1 John 5:19 ESV

We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

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The last generation will be given over to their reprobate minds and these spirits of evil will be able to influence their leader's decision making.

Not saying we are there but I think we all agree some really odd things have been happening over the last few years. More so than normal?

Sapper Redux said:

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PA24 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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1 John 5:19 ESV

We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

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The last generation will be given over to their reprobate minds and these spirits of evil will be able to influence their leader's decision making.

Not saying we are there but I think we all agree some really odd things have been happening over the last few years. More so than normal?

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Versus when half of Europe died of the plague, wars of religion depopulated Germany, and empires wiped out millions of the native populations?

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I hear statements from people like PA24 all the time. Wealthy (by worlds standards we ALL are), entitled and soft Americans have got to be the most ignorant and disassociated people from reality.

We are the most fortunate people to have ever existed and any little booboo or gas pocket of discomfort and the end times are upon us.

Read a book...

CrackerJackAg said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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PA24 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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1 John 5:19 ESV

We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

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The last generation will be given over to their reprobate minds and these spirits of evil will be able to influence their leader's decision making.

Not saying we are there but I think we all agree some really odd things have been happening over the last few years. More so than normal?

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Versus when half of Europe died of the plague, wars of religion depopulated Germany, and empires wiped out millions of the native populations?

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I hear statements from people like PA24 all the time. Wealthy (by worlds standards we ALL are), entitled and soft Americans have got to be the most ignorant and disassociated people from reality.

We are the most fortunate people to have ever existed and any little booboo or gas pocket of discomfort and the end times are upon us.

Read a book...

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No where did I say that, and look up the definition of the word reprobate. Nothing to do with standard of living.

Get over yourself, snotty ahole.

Do you legitimately think we are more selfish or unprincipled than the societies that didn't blink over wars that wiped out whole regions or promoted slavery, etc?