If one were to take a step back, it's worth noting how before man's fall, works would lead you to eternal life.

By not eating of the tree, humans were guaranteed life to the fullest, abundant, eternal life.

After the fall, works were "null and void" as far as earning a place in paradise.


It all begs the question, what was faith like before the fall?

Is it fair to say it takes a lot more (or higher order) faith to keep in obedience than to obey because you know & experienced the consequences of not obeying?


Oh well, He was there with them in the Garden of Eden after all. Of course one would have faith and faith in Him, he could be seen and talked to. There was no disconnect in one's relationship to Him.

Just some thoughts.

No matter where "there" is, many have wondered how are we physically transported to "there"?
And roughly how far away is "there"?

Proof that MidTnAg is a sock of dds08 (or vice versa)?

Doesn't have to be either/or.

Is asking Jesus into your heart a "work"?

James 2:24-26

Dad-O-Lot said:

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James 2:24-26

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Ephesians 2:8-9

Win At Life said:

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Is asking Jesus into your heart a "work"?

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Do we have to chase after God or does He chase after us?

Martin Luther said it this way:

"We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone."

Win At Life said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Win At Life said:

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Is asking Jesus into your heart a "work"?

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Do we have to chase after God or does He chase after us?

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Does God repent for us or do we have to repent or is there salvation without repentance?

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So you agree that God chases after us?

Because repentance does nothing, especially towards salvation, unless God allowed it.

AgLiving06 said:

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Win At Life said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Win At Life said:

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Is asking Jesus into your heart a "work"?

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Do we have to chase after God or does He chase after us?

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Does God repent for us or do we have to repent or is there salvation without repentance?

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So you agree that God chases after us?

Because repentance does nothing, especially towards salvation, unless God allowed it.

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So, even your own repentance is not your idea, but something God forces upon you against your will?

What are you reading to suggest that "by not eating of the tree, humans were guaranteed life to the fullest, abundant, eternal life?"

Win At Life said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Win At Life said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Win At Life said:

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Is asking Jesus into your heart a "work"?

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Do we have to chase after God or does He chase after us?

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Does God repent for us or do we have to repent or is there salvation without repentance?

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So you agree that God chases after us?

Because repentance does nothing, especially towards salvation, unless God allowed it.

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So, even your own repentance is not your idea, but something God forces upon you against your will?

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No. You're mixing up terms here. I certainly haven't mentioned the will yet, and don't think it's really relevant (at the moment at least).

I did not say it's not your idea. However, the desire to repent is more of a function of the fear of the alternative. God presents you with two alternatives:

Do not repent, and face His wrath

Repent, and accept His offer of salvation.

If you have faith in God and fear Him as the Bible commands you to do, won't you also follow His command to repent?

And so if you are doing what He commanded, who's idea is it?

Just curious as to how you are defining "repent"? Thanks

And edited to add how you are defining "fear"?

And I ask those questions not to be a turkey but because I feel that those two words along with "born again" have had many translation problems.

dermdoc said:

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And I ask those questions not to be a turkey but because I feel that those two words along with "born again" have had many translation problems.

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That's fair.

I'll go generically as possible and say it's when we fail to live up to the two commandments that Jesus said were most important:

Mark 12:30-31

"30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these."

I do want to caveat that, at least in the case of your neighbor, love does not equal "not offend" since not all people follow God or His commandments.

I can't think of an instance where offending God would be considered a good idea

Edit: updated to put the word "not" in front of offend.

In my own bungled reading, attending conferences, and somewhat analyzing the original Greek, I have come to the conclusion that "repentance" does not mean what I was taught in Baptist Sunday School. Repentance is a change of mind, a turning around which I believe is what Christ meant when He told Nicodemus he must be "born again".

I was taught that repentance involved penitence which came about because of how Saint Jerome translated the Greek into Latin in the Latin Vulgate. I now think it simply means changing your mind about life and eternity because you know Christ through the Holy Spirit. And I thought being "born again" meant you had to have some kind of incredible, intense emotional experience and now I believe that it occurs through the Spirit when you change your mind, or repent.

Fear, to me, now means more about awe and adoration, not fear like I was taught in the Baptist Church that if you did anything wrong you were going to be cast into Hell.

And this brings up a favorite scripture of mine, 1John 4:18

There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love.

And if Christ instructed us to do those two commandments, doesn't that mean that we have free will? To either obey or not obey?

dermdoc said:

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And if Christ instructed us to do those two commandments, doesn't that mean that we have free will? To either obey or not obey?

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I haven't brought up free will in this conversation. Win at Life did.

My response to him was the following:

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I certainly haven't mentioned the will yet, and don't think it's really relevant (at the moment at least).

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Repentance is metanoia, meta to change, noia or nous the mind. It literally means a change of mind, but this doesn't just mean, "oh, I thought the answer was A but now it is B". It is a transformation (Romans 12:2), not a one time event. Not binary, but a turning toward God, and by necessity then away from sin. I don't think it's a one time thing - it is a continual choice, an effort, to repent from our sins, from all sinful inclinations, and any habits or desires of the mind that are contrary to the will of God. To change the mind is to change our whole selves, to reorient ourselves.

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Repentance is the abandoning of all false paths that have been trodden by men's feet, and men's thoughts and desires, and a return to the new path: Christ's path. But how can a sinful man repent unless he, in his heart, meets with the Lord and knows his own shame? Before little Zacchaeus saw the Lord with his eyes, he met Him in his heart and was ashamed of all his ways.
-St. Nikolai Velimirovic

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...it is good to repent every day, as the commandment demands. For the words: 'Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand' impose upon us a practice not limited to a definite time but for always.
-St. Simeon the New Theologian

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Always remain in a state of repentance, the foundation of our salvation, for we know not the day or the hour at which the Lord will come.
-St. Nilus of Sinai

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He who would be saved should ever have his heart disposed to repentance and broken, according to the Psalmist: "Sacrifice to God is a broken spirit: a broken and humbled heart God will not despise" (Ps. 50:17).
-St Seraphim of Sarov

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It is a spiritual gift from God for a man to perceive his sins.
-St. Isaac of Syria

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I think fear of God is multifaceted. Fear as in terror, fear as in awe, fear as in a right understanding of the relationship between creator and created (although this is probably better expressed as humility).

But fear and love and repentance and humility all tie together --

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As it is not possible to cross over the great ocean without a ship, so no one can attain to love without fear. The fetid sea, which lies between us and the noetic paradise, we may cross by the boat of repentance, whose oarsmen are those of fear. But if fear's oarsmen do not pilot the barque of repentance whereby we cross over the sea of this world to God, we shall be drowned in the fetid abyss. Repentance is the ship and fear is the pilot; love is the divine haven.

St. Isaac the Syrian

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Do not disagree. But repentance was taught to me in the Baptist Church as almost a punishment which I do not agree with. And I am okay with your fear definition also, but again the terror aspect was overly emphasized.

God loved us so much that he came down to Earth to actually experience human life and what it is like. Being hungry, thirsty, persecuted, tortured, etc. It is amazing.

HaEmet said:

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What are you reading to suggest that "by not eating of the tree, humans were guaranteed life to the fullest, abundant, eternal life?"

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The bible of course!

Genesis 2: 8-9
Genesis 2: 15-17

It's implied.

In Genesis 2:21-24, God felt the need to hurry up and get Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden before they ate of the Tree of Life and lived forever!

I left this thread for dead.

Didn't think the topic would go anywhere.

Win At Life said:

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Is asking Jesus into your heart a "work"?

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Haha! I always wonder about that to some extent.


I believe there is more to it than just muttering words. It's one thing to say it callously, and another to say it with heart, conviction, and belief. The Lord knows if one is genuine or fake.

I suspect when one is genuine about it, there's an eery synergy that takes place where one's obedience, faith, and the Lord coalesce.

dermdoc said:

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Do not disagree. But repentance was taught to me in the Baptist Church as almost a punishment which I do not agree with. And I am okay with your fear definition also, but again the terror aspect was overly emphasized.

God loved us so much that he came down to Earth to actually experience human life and what it is like. Being hungry, thirsty, persecuted, tortured, etc. It is amazing.

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I think you can look back to the schism to see that the West tends to overplay the penal aspects of Christianity.

Maybe it's a lingering effect of Rome, but as you said, there needs to be balance.

Is it really implied? We are only told if they are eat from the tree of life can they live forever. They were free to eat from the tree of life prior to eating the tree of death, for they may eat from any tree except the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. So it depends on when they could eat from the tree of life.

So eating from the tree of life gives you immortality. So did they have immortality previously?

Eating from the tree of life gives you immortality and eating from the tree of knowledge and evil gives you death. Maybe man is created in limbo per se. Neither immortal or mortal.

Is there another tree of life in the Bible?

Correction, not Genesis 2:21-24, but Genesis 3:22-24.

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Genesis 3:21-24 New International Version (NIV)

21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[a] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

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Is it really implied? We are only told if they are eat from the tree of life can they live forever. They were free to eat from the tree of life prior to eating the tree of death, for they may eat from any tree except the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. So it depends on when they could eat from the tree of life.

So eating from the tree of life gives you immortality. So did they have immortality previously?

Eating from the tree of life gives you immortality and eating from the tree of knowledge and evil gives you death. Maybe man is created in limbo per se. Neither immortal or mortal.

Is there another tree of life in the Bible?

HaEmet said:

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Is it really implied? We are only told if they are eat from the tree of life can they live forever. They were free to eat from the tree of life prior to eating the tree of death, for they may eat from any tree except the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. So it depends on when they could eat from the tree of life.

So eating from the tree of life gives you immortality. So did they have immortality previously?

Eating from the tree of life gives you immortality and eating from the tree of knowledge and evil gives you death. Maybe man is created in limbo per se. Neither immortal or mortal.

Is there another tree of life in the Bible?

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I do not follow.

The scripture is plain as day.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Salvation by faith

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It's salvation by grace through faith.

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+1

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Ephesians 2:8-9 New International Version (NIV)

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

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The implications of this are awe-inspiring.

Perhaps how it works is:

1. We admit we have sinned
2. Believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins and declare Jesus is Lord
3. Repent of our sins

It is in no way, shape, form or fashion, that any of those human actions (in and of themselves) save the sinner; however, once a person does those things, one is pardoned by God in some way and receives the free gift.

God pardoning someone and giving someone the gift of eternal life is certainly his prerogative (grace).

Did I miss anything?

Those actions may not save, but they certainly "set one up" to be saved.

We discussed this yesterday at our weekly Men's Bible study. It is fascinating that after two thousand years, much smarter and learned people than me still debate this concept. And how to reconcile Paul and James. I think we will not know for sure until we are in Heaven.