I'm sure this has been discussed in great detail before, but I missed it. From what I've read it seems as though there is much more to this than just a short statement. What is the bigger context here?

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

For me, Jesus says that he is the way, truth, and life, no one comes to the father except through him.

I know what that means for those who trust in Christ. For those who don't, I'm not the judge, God is. I would be a liar if I could tell them they too will be in heaven. I leave it to God, but I have no guarantee for them, while those who trust in Christ do have a guarantee.

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and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

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No they don't. They reject the Trinity explicitly.

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve (Quran 5:73)

I think you need to read that carefully. God's plan for salvation includes all men. They believe in God, albeit in a deficient and diminished capacity from our view who sing "we have seen the True Light, we have found the True Faith, worshipping the undivided Trinity."

It says they profess to hold the faith, not that they do.

I don't think this is a statement about salvation as much as - well, it's better to believe in God than not.

That being said, just because a person believes in one god, does not mean they believe in the One God. So, I can't really see the benefit of even faintly praising what the earlier church viewed as a Christian heresy.

Summary - Vatican II ecumenical feelgoods.

k2aggie07 said:

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It says they profess to hold the faith, not that they do.

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"these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us"

Yeah I think the implication here is that they are in fact worshipping God, but much as Christ tells St Photini, they worship what they do not know.

k2aggie07 said:

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Yeah I think the implication here is that they are in fact worshipping God, but much as Christ tells St Photini, they worship what they do not know.

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Simply because they are monotheists?

I'm not catholic and I'm certainly no Vatican II supporter, so don't take me as defending it. Personally I don't see much advantage in putting something like this out - like I said, it seems to be ecumenical feelgoods.

But, I think that putting the best interpretation on it, what I would suggest is that they profess to worship the God of Abraham and this has significance over a generic monotheism. The God of Abraham is our God. That they worship Him in an incorrect or diminished capacity because they have a disordered relationship with the Church and therefore the True Faith doesn't change that they are worshiping Him, or at least attempting to.

Again, I think this sentence is only saying that there are hierarchies or degrees of distinction between different people groups relationships to God. In this hierarchy, it is better to worship the God of Abraham rather than any monotheistic god, and that is better than not professing to know any god at all.

On road waiting on customer, so can't pull entire catechism.

Short answer- need to read the entire catholic catechism. 30 second Sound bites leave a lot of info out.

Summary of Catholic catechism on the topic- Jesus is the way, get baptized, but we also hold out in hope that through God's grace others can come to know Jesus.

God knows our hearts and will judge accordingly

booboo91 said:

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On road waiting on customer

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

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No they don't. They reject the Trinity explicitly.

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This goes for jews too right?

This is part of the "evolution" of the Catholic Church.

In the Middle Ages, any non-Catholic (including the Orthodox) were destined to Hell if they weren't part of the Catholic Church.

It's kind of funny to watch the pendulum swing the other way now and now quite literally everyone could be saved. They avoid calling it universalism by putting qualifiers around it, but even an avowed Atheist could be "saved."

Martin Q. Blank said:

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and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

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No they don't. They reject the Trinity explicitly.

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Your very own understanding of the Trinity is incomplete, so are you professing that you too are not saved.

Only if you also say that perfect understanding is requisite for salvation. I doubt he believes that.

AgLiving06 said:

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This is part of the "evolution" of the Catholic Church.

In the Middle Ages, any non-Catholic (including the Orthodox) were destined to Hell if they weren't part of the Catholic Church.

It's kind of funny to watch the pendulum swing the other way now and now quite literally everyone could be saved. They avoid calling it universalism by putting qualifiers around it, but even an avowed Atheist could be "saved."

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Catholic teaching, is when you knowingly walk away from the truth, this is a sin. Example: you know the church has authority, you know the Eucharist is real presence of Jesus and yet you leave it behind. England knowingly left the church to go with their ruler Henry the 8th (because he wanted to divorce his wife and he wanted power) . Not good.

But those who are ignorant through no fault of their own, will be judged differently.

See comments of Jesus Luke 12:37-48 That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely;and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.

See comments on Catechism Catholic Catechism teaching

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to

More on innocently ignorant. We see this in the bible, here is (1) example in the book of ACTS man who was not Jewish (pagan, gentile, was ernestly calling out to God. We see God answering his prayers and leading him to Jesus.

Acts 11 1-4 Now in Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of the Cohort called the Italica, devout and God-fearing along with his whole household, who used to give alms generously to the Jewish people and pray to God constantly.3One afternoon about three o'clock,he saw plainly in a vision an angel of God come in to him and say to him, "Cornelius."4He looked intently at him and, seized with fear, said, "What is it, sir?" He said to him, "Your prayers and almsgiving have ascended as a memorial offering before God.

There are also Near Death Experience Stories of God's last minute mercy being given to people: Example person trying to commit suicide- jumping off bridge, knowing what they were doing was wrong (Sin) and as they jumped they regretting their decision and asking for God's mercy as they were falling. God's mercy is granted.

Summary - We can never under estimate God's love and mercy for us, so we always hold on to hope that anyone can be saved by God at the last minute. This is not guaranteed. If you want to 100% assure your salvation- Turn to Jesus, become baptised and be in relationship with God (not in mortal sin). Note: Once saved and always saved is a Lie (it is not biblical). Matt 24: 10...13 And then many will be led into sin; they will betray and hate one another.....But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved Context : Words of jesus on destruction of temple and the future trying time for his followers. It still applies to us today.

GoHomeLeg said:

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I'm sure this has been discussed in great detail before, but I missed it. From what I've read it seems as though there is much more to this than just a short statement. What is the bigger context here?

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

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Here is the entire section Catholic Catechism on the relationship of Catholics and Non- Christians. The previous section covers Catholics and other Christians.

General Summary - If you want the fullness of Truth become catholic- the church that Jesus founded, authority, church that established the bible. Catechism is showing common ground for the various religions, so we can start the dialog.

Catholic Catechism


The Church and non-Christians
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334