k2 and any other Orthodox here, any suggestions on books for people intrigued by Orthodox? I'm thinking anything on the history, theological positions, etc.

None. Read the Bible.

Doc Daneeka said:

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None. Read the Bible.

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Question is for our Orthodox posters. Thanks though. Already doing that.

This is always a good place to start:
http://a.co/7zd6ZCZ

This is a fantastic book:
http://a.co/3bvac0D

And I really enjoyed this:
http://a.co/ir1x7jr

The third is not really Orthodox per se, just Patristics. But I suppose that's the same thing, really.

Thanks so much for these. That last one really looks interesting.

Orthodox Church by Kallistos Ware is great

It's a bit of history, a bit of theology, bit about The Church etc.. Understanding History is a big part of Orthodoxy for me.

I just finished reading Avvakum....skip that one.

Doc Daneeka said:

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None. Read the Bible.

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Can't beat The Bible. Greatest thing the Orthodox Church ever did.

Even if you aren't ready to join or just want to learn, see when the local Church does their introductory class.

Reading the books is great, but really interacting with a Father is such a great experience. The history of the Church (even if you don't want to be Orthodox) is fascinating.

Thanks guys.

Thanks and reading Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy, Finding the way to Christ in a complicated religious landscape by Damick and enjoying it. I am starting to believe that the Orthodox religion is the truth with it unchanging core beliefs, liturgy, and sacraments. Also I like the fact they just present their beliefs and welcome folks to try it rather than beating them over the head with threats of Hell. I am looking at Orthodoxy very seriously.

I really like everything I've read and seen from Fr Stephen.

Also a good book - Rock and Sand br Fr Josiah Trenham. It's a little more polemic though.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1939028361/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_awdb_t1_eJpBAbCKPG1XK

dermdoc said:

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Thanks and reading Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy, Finding the way to Christ in a complicated religious landscape by Damick and enjoying it. I am starting to believe that the Orthodox religion is the truth with it unchanging core beliefs, liturgy, and sacraments. Also I like the fact they just present their beliefs and welcome folks to try it rather than beating them over the head with threats of Hell. I am looking at Orthodoxy very seriously.

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Good to hear!! I fell in love with The Church and history. If you ever need anything you have my number.

Brent Harriman

Doc Daneeka said:

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None. Read the Bible.

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So you read no other books outside the Bible huh? None at all???

It's fine to read commentary and devotionals as long as they were written by protestants in the past 100 years or so.

Who needs Justin Martyr or Polycarp when you have Sarah of Wasilla: https://www.amazon.com/dp/151133438X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_IbDBAbJW6C14M

k2aggie07 said:

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This is always a good place to start:
http://a.co/7zd6ZCZ

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Just started this one yesterday. Already loving it. Thanks!

gordo97 said:

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Doc Daneeka said:

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None. Read the Bible.

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So you read no other books outside the Bible huh? None at all???

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You couldn't tell?

Aggiefan#1 said:

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Doc Daneeka said:

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None. Read the Bible.

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Can't beat The Bible. Greatest thing the Catholic Church ever did.

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FIFY.

"Where We Got the Bible...Our Debt to The Catholic Church"

https://www.amazon.com/Where-Bible-Debt-Catholic-Church/dp/0895557967

Agreed. Although Catholic (Universal) used to mean something different back in those days. Rome was critical in its role in the development and maintenance of the Bible.

Catholic today is most often referring to the Roman Church and what it is today.
Orthodoxy is the continuation of all of the other unified Church's from those days. Same liturgy, Creed etc....

The Church Fathers would have a difficult time recognizing the Roman Church today. I'm not personally saying it's wrong, invalid etc. I personally see it as valid and important today but I'm just saying it's very different.

I would love a universal reunification of the Church's. I just see the gap as far too wide:-(

Despite what may have been the past and present intended usages of the name Catholic (which actually first came about in the 1st century by St. Ignatius of Antioch - https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/apologetics-with-st-ignatius-of-antioch), the historicity of the Catholic Church and its role in organizing and creating the Bible guided by Divine Inspiration remains true. Paul himself had no problem recognizing the authority of Peter / Rome and the early Fathers did not either. That Church starting with Jesus and the Apostles is the same Church today, albeit with some minor details changed in form, but every bit as legitimate and valid.

I don't think the Catholic Church & Orthodox Churches are that far apart at all. Just a rough estimate but I would say both share at least 95% of their beliefs. The biggest obstacles to unification remain to be the primacy of the Pope and the Filioque, and the rest of the disagreements are mostly minor in nature.

St. Pope John Paul II has a great quote on this, and I think the unification is closer now than it has been in some time:
"...Catholics and Orthodox are not enemies, but brothers. We have the same faith; we share the same sacraments, and especially the Eucharist. We are divided by some disagreements concerning the divine constitution of the Church of Jesus Christ. The persons who were the cause of these disagreements have been dead for centuries. Let us abandon the old disputes and, each in his own domain, let us work to make our brothers good, by giving them good example. Later on, though traveling along different paths, we shall achieve union among the churches to form together the true and unique Church of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

Can someone explain the disagreement over the Filioque? Would be interested in both a Catholic and Orthodox perspective.

RetiredAg said:

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Can someone explain the disagreement over the Filioque? Would be interested in both a Catholic and Orthodox perspective.

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The authority of the Pope to change the Nicene Creed, not an ecumenical council.

Filioque gets touched on in the thread I linked. The most detailed discussion can be found in the Tomus of Blachernae.

But essentially, the West got kind of Hellenistic, neo-platonist in how they attempted to define their theology. The Hellenistic philosophical tradition says that perfection is one, perfection is unity, unchanging vs changing, immutable vs mutable, and so on. Some of the early heresies against the Incarnation of Christ are best understood as a logical objection to the ability for God to become anything. If God is immutable, and unchanging, and so forth, how can He become Man? Not truly, they said. So, there was a Man, but God didn't really become a Man.

The Church said no, that's not so. God is beyond even our ideas of change and unchange; properly, He is neither changable or unchangeable. He's beyond all that.

Anyway, the west fell under some platonic influence in their theology, particularly St Augustine (this is not unique to the west, the way St Gregory of Nyssa spoke of God at times was very Hellenistic). The result was that they ended up emphasizing the oneness of God as prime versus His personhood.

The east maintains, to this day, that the unique person (hypostasis) of God the Father is sole cause of the Godhead, and that the Son and the Spirit are from Him: the Son by begetting and the spirit by Processing.

The west tends to say that the oneness (essence) is the source, and so it does no damage to their formulation of the Trinity to say that the Spirit proceeds (i.e., is caused eternally) by the Father and the Son (in Latin et Filioque).

From there it just falls into a very dense philosophical debate. However, my personal belief is that the filioque is an error, because it has some very strong consequences for how we think of God, how we relate to God, and even further how He relates to us. The Barlaamites debated St Gregory Palamas about this, and really St Gregory Palamas defines the faith of the Church: that God is Real, and when He is angry or upset or loving or happy or grieved He really is these things, and they are really Real. He is a person. The West says "yes, but..."

Yes but He is immutable and unity and unchanging and One essence, so when we experience wrath or anger or whatever, it's really just this unchanging thing and the difference is only in our perceptions or it's a metaphor or an analogy. Further, that means that what we experience is a creation, because He is beyond perception. This borders very highly on Modalism, or Sabellianism -- and this is exactly what St Mark of Ephesus explained at the council of Ferrara-Florence.

Either we really experience God, or we experience a creation. If we cannot experience God in reality, paraphrasing St Mark - if we really receive the Spirit, let the Latins explain how the Spirit is a Creation.

At the council of Blachernae this issue was debated later in the East, because some unionists were trying to make the case that it was in fact the same thing, or that it was supported by earlier fathers, or whatever. I did a summary of the findings of Patriarch Gregory at Blachernae here: https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/2818901
A warning, it is dense philosophical language... but, I found it to be do-able, slowly and a bit at a time.

Quote:

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The east maintains, to this day, that the unique person (hypostasis) of God the Father is sole cause of the Godhead, and that the Son and the Spirit are from Him: the Son by begetting and the spirit by Processing.

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The Father begetting the Son and the Father processing the Spirit is two unities of two, not a unity of three.

No idea what you think you mean by that, but both the Romans and the East confess the Monarch of the Father, that the Father is sole cause (aitia) or principle (principium) of the Trinity.

I don't really want to get into it on this thread.

k2 thanks, and sorry I missed your post on the Filioque from the other thread. Reading this book has helped a lot. Icons now make much more sense to me.

These discussions are a blessing and I thank God for k2aggie07 and his knowledge!

Anyone interested in Orthodoxy should start by reading the Psalms and the Gospels every day.

St Theophan the Recluse:

Quote:

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Each person will find different psalms to be more effective for himself. Begin with Have mercy on me, O God (Psalm 50); then Bless the Lord, O my soul (Psalm 102); and Praise the Lord, O my Soul (Psalm 145). These latter two are the antiphon hymns in the Liturgy. There are also the psalms in the Canon for Divine Communion: The Lord is my shepherd (Psalm 22); The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof (Psalm 23); I believed, wherefore I spake (Psalm 115); and the first psalm of the evening vigil, O God, be attentive unto helping me (Psalm 69). There are the psalms of the hours, and the like. Read the Psalter and select.

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Go to your local church and ask for the small red Prayer Book published by the Antiochian Church. If they don't have that but have another Prayer Book that is OK. The Bible and a Prayer Book are all you need!

My only other advice would be to show humility and love towards our Christian brothers and sisters. Don't speak ill of Catholics or Protestants, there are many who are doing incredible good for God every day.

Why are St Theophan the Recluse's Psalm numbers off by one?

Well, there's so much confusion well into the 1500s and beyond about what actually constitutes the OT canon in the west. The Apostles quoted from the Septuagint, and we have always used the Septuagint in the Orthodox church. The Septuagint numbering of the Psalms differ by one after a certain point.

Agree. I have learned a lot on here from k2. God bless you!

Not me just the fathers. I just copy and paste.

Late to the party, but in case these are useful, I've listed some favorites below. I should also lead with the caveat that, while I read myself into intellectual conviction that the truth is found in the ancient church, I have grown to appreciate, admire, and be a little jealous of those who are convinced by the beauty and truth of the Divine Liturgy. Orthodox Christianity is a participatory faith, and books cannot convey the breadth and depth of what is found in the active life of the church. Lex Orandi, lex credendi.

Books intended to introduce the Orthodox faith to non-Orthodox

The Orthodox Church - Bp. KALLISTOS Ware
This is the classic introduction of the Orthodox faith in English. Widely used in catechism.

The Orthodox Faith - Fr. Thomas Hopko (also available to read for free online)
The legendary "rainbow series" that provide a useful introduction to the Doctrine and Scripture (vol.1), Worship (vol. 2), History (vol. 3), and Spirituality (vol. 4) of the Orthodox faith. I also highly recommend Fr. Thomas's podcast "Speaking the Truth in Love."

Dancing Alone: The Quest for Orthodox Faith in the Age of False Religion - Frank Schaeffer
A brash introduction to and argument for the truth of the Orthodox Faith. Frank Schaeffer's style is not universally liked, but it worked for me and was the book that helped me see that I needed to pursue Orthodoxy further.

Introducing the Orthodox Church: Her Faith and Life - Fr. Anthony Coniaris
A standard catechism, but I'm partial to it because it's what I used.

Books intended for Orthodox readers to deepen their understanding of the faith

Great Lent - Fr. Alexander Schmemann
I try to re-read this book every year during Great Lent. As Fr. Alexander notes, Great Lent is our annual refresher on the meaning of repentance and finding life in Christ. Provides an in depth explanation of what is going on in the services of the Triodion.

Beginning to Pray - Met. ANTHONY Bloom
Perhaps my all-time favorite and another one that I return to time and again. Provides useful reflection on what prayer is and how we should approach this essential part of our spiritual lives.

The Explanation of the Gospels - Bl. Theophylact
A verse-by-verse interpolation of explanation and exegesis of the Gospels. Want to know what the Church thought about Scripture in the 11th century? Here it is.

The Ante-Nice Fathers, The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers - T&T Clark Eerdmans
The definitive Church Fathers in English translation. If you don't have access to the beautifully bound library, you can find them all (searchable!) online.
[url=https://www.amazon.com/001-Sacred-Symbols-That-Speak/dp/0937032395/][/url]
Sacred Symbols that Speak - Fr. Anthony Coniaris
Fr. Anthony takes a deep dive in this two-volume set to describe the rich symbolism that underlies all of Orthodox spiritual life. I'm also partial to Fr. Anthony's Introducing the Orthodox Church: Her Faith and Life, since this is the book that I was catechized with.

Ladder of the Beatitudes - Jim Forest
Jim Forest uses the Commandments of Blessedness to argue for the kind of life that truly reflects Christ's love.

The Hungry Orthodox Reader -
Provides snapshots and suggested readings from Orthodox writing that may be more obscure in English translations.

The Way of the Ascetics - Tito Colliander
Useful meditations gleaned from patristic writing, intended to help lay persons living in a world of distractions also strive for the kind of spiritual life that is sometimes thought of as reserved only for monastics.

Marriage: An Orthodox Perspective - Fr. John Meyendorff
I found this to be helpful guidance on a topic that has a lot of cultural significance in our time. Makes the case that the marriage bond is intended to reflect the Trinity.

Christ the Eternal Tao - Fr. Damascene Christensen A beautiful three-part volume that builds on the work and teaching of Fr. Seraphim Rose. In the first part, the case is made to think of Lao Tzu's Tao as pre-Christian revelation of truth, similar to how some view Aristotle. The second part is an epic poem in the style of the Tao that weaves together OT, NT and patristic writing with the concepts taught in the Tao. Part three considers what this means for Christians if true. Particularly powerful if read in conjunction with Fr. Damascene's biography of Fr. Seraphim Rose.

An Unbroken Circle: Linking Ancient African Christianity to the African-American Experience
An outgrowth of the Ancient Christian and African-American Conference put on by the Brotherhood of St. Moses the Black, this volume connects the African Christian faith to the faithful witness of black Christians throughout their history of oppression in the United States. Makes a case (in my mind, at least) for considering these faithful as martyrs.
[url=https://www.amazon.com/Wade-River-Story-African-Christian/dp/0971636508/][/url]
Wade in the River: The Story of the African Christian Faith - Fr. Paisius Altschul
Fr. Paisius gives an in-depth account of the rich Christian tradition throughout the African continent. Lays to rest (in my mind, at least) any question about whether one can credibly claim that Christianity is the "white man's religion."

The Mountain of Silence: A Search for Orthodox Spirituality - Kyriacos Markides
Written by a layperson, this is an interesting reflection on how even someone raised in the Orthodox faith can find so much depth in the lived theology of monastics. This was my introduction to the concept of logismoi, which has been particularly helpful in confronting my own thoughts.

Those interested in history may also find the writing at http://orthodoxhistory.org/ appealing since this project has done a superb job of fleshing out the history of Orthodox faithful in the United States. My favorite thread has been to learn about Phillip Ludwell III, a colonial Virginian and crypto-Orthodox.

Thank you for the incredible list. The Way of the Ascetics is especially good since it is a small size and each chapter is only a few pages.

For those who are interested in early monastic writings, The Philokalia is an amazing collection.

I'll point out another item (since I'm home sick today and couldn't go to Church).

If you search for "St. George Antiochian Orthodox Church in Houston" on Facebook, you'll be able to find their weekly services. I think starting this year, they decided to live stream their services on Sunday. So you can watch and get a feel for what a service is like.

Shepherd of Souls, a biography of Cleopa Ilie of Romania. He died (+) in 1998. A soaring account of the beauty of Orthodox believers under an oppressive Communist state. And apparently he beat Protestant believers 21 to 14 in some public forum.