https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/06/his-kampf/524505/

A high school classmate of his went out to visit with him and talk about his transformation from spoiled Dallas rich kid to the face of the alt-right. Very interesting read.

The part of the story that I think is most interesting is that his transformation started with Nietzsche, yet he still defends Christian values (even though he admits to being an atheist).

Why is Spencer's view of the world wrong? He is against violence, but thinks that people of different races aught to be more overt in their preference for and protection of each other?

(I am not a racist, and do not agree with Spencer; but, I find the argument against his ideas to be interesting, and sometimes troubelingly thin).

Ok, so ignore the idea that he believes that white people are better than other people. Focus on the idea that people of race should aggregate and protect other people of their own race.

What is the philosophical argument against that as a worldview? It's wrong, but, why?

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Focus on the idea that people of race should aggregate and protect other people of their own race.

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Why? Just because your skin color is the same as mine, why should that facilitate any preference of favoring you over anyone who doesn't have the same skin color? It's a completely ignorant view of the world.

There could be an argument made when it comes to culture. Some cultures just don't mix, that's a non PC thing to say that is true. But culture is not connected to skin color in anything other than the mind. Genetics does not determine your culture.

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In short, Spencer's ideas are an amalgam of Nazi notions of race, American notions of race, and ill-defined ideas of a unified continental culture that were created for propaganda purposes.

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I would say that's true of all notions of race. They're all just cumulative social constructs without any real basis in biology other than some variation in non-essential traits.

The rise of Spencer's ideas are predictable based on the current social climate. When it comes to race, the acceptable options are 1) Be a minority and proud of your heritage -or- 2) Be white and ashamed of your heritage. I could see that attraction to the idea of being white and proud instead of white and ashamed.

Personally though, I feel that taking pride from my genetics or from the accomplishments of other people who I think are like me is stupid.

Texaggie7nine said:

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There could be an argument made when it comes to culture. Some cultures just don't mix, that's a non PC thing to say that is true. But culture is not connected to skin color in anything other than the mind. Genetics does not determine your culture.

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This is about the only thing that seems reasonable. I think what is happening with Spencer and others is a conflation of race and culture. Seems like Spencer and others assume race causes culture, when the greater likelihood is something like geography of residence during your lifespan is a much greater contributing factor. I personally blame these kinds of people on the left. If they weren't trying to force identity politics down everyone's throats, people like Spencer wouldn't have a following.

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I personally blame these kinds of people on the left. If they weren't trying to force identity politics down everyone's throats, people like Spencer wouldn't have a following.

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I get what you're saying, but people like Spencer and those that follow him are to blame for what they believe. I understand pushing back against what is perceived as having "identity politics" forced on you, but they make the decision to counter that by embracing a fear-based and reprehensible worldview.

For sure. The only party ultimately responsible for your behavior is you, generally speaking.

Regarding the emotional motivations of people like Spencer, I'd have to do more research to decide if it was a fear based motivation. I hate to jump directly from Spencer to Hitler, but I suppose it's the best example given the similarities. Hitler's Nazism was certainly not fear-based if you read a lot of the language he used to describe his perceived problems with the Jews. Obviously, it was pathological, but I don't conclude it was centered in fear. It appears more to be a pathology of extreme orderliness.

Identity Politics in all shapes and colors is divisive and wrong.

He's wrong for the same reason that BLM is wrong. That's irony.

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The rise of Spencer's ideas are predictable based on the current social climate. When it comes to race, the acceptable options are 1) Be a minority and proud of your heritage -or- 2) Be white and ashamed of your heritage. I could see that attraction to the idea of being white and proud instead of white and ashamed.

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So much this.

I remember sitting in a sociology course years ago and listening to lectures that covered points 1 and 2. I remember thinking three things are going to result from this:

1 - You hear it and believe that minorities should be proud and whites should be ashamed.
2 - You hear it but flip it around and declare that you're white & proud (though not necessarily racist)
3 - You realize that both positions are utterly ridiculous.

I sit at position 3. Now, I firmly believe that position 2 is just as repugnant as position 1, but position 2 only exists because position 1 has been thrown in our faces for so long. After having seen #1 for so long, my gut is to not do anything to pushback against 2, because in my mind it is exactly the same as 1.

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Personally though, I feel that taking pride from my genetics or from the accomplishments of other people who I think are like me is stupid.

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Right? Should I feel ashamed at people who looked like me because of colonization, transatlantic slave trade, etc? I could just as easily feel proud that people who looked at me were able to do that whereas other peoples ancestors still considered sharp sticks to the be the most advanced weaponry. Point is, it's all BS.

AstroAg17 said:

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Does the justice system actually have documented racial issues? I don't know of anything non-anecdotal to suggest that, but I've never looked into it.

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I'm pretty sure it does, but I'm not certain of specifics. Men vs. women is a similar issue actually. It appears that judges aren't capable of being as "unbiased" as we'd like them to be, though they aren't the only reason why you might see differences in sentencing.

A common western inheritance is much more relevant in a global economy. Watson, your view is a bit tough to align. We don't know how much we share in common until we meet people who have no common background. So with the rise of globalism, the rise of a common westernism is actually kind of understandable.

The enlightenment thinkers viewed themselves as the heirs to not only the classical philosophers but also the Romans such as Tacitus and renaissance thinkers. And the Americans viewed themselves as the heirs to their worldview, plus new contributions from Sydney and the like.

That may not be a racial inheritance but it is a bond of sorts that is not shared by non-westerners. How you fix that I don't know, but even simple bedrock concepts like the existence of absolute good and evil are absent from people who don't have a cultural link to Plato (like Japanese folks for example).

I think we have a genetic / predisposed tendency to self segregate. I think that culture can reinforce or reduce this. But it's frankly not supportable to say that a) all races have a common genetic inheritance and that b) all cultures are of equal value. In many ways Spencer is a reaction to these two core fundamental tenets of globalism / progressivism.

k2aggie07 said:

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A common western inheritance is much more relevant in a global economy. Watson, your view is a bit tough to align. We don't know how much we share in common until we meet people who have no common background. So with the rise of globalism, the rise of a common westernism is actually kind of understandable.

The enlightenment thinkers viewed themselves as the heirs to not only the classical philosophers but also the Romans such as Tacitus and renaissance thinkers. And the Americans viewed themselves as the heirs to their worldview, plus new contributions from Sydney and the like.

That may not be a racial inheritance but it is a bond of sorts that is not shared by non-westerners. How you fix that I don't know, but even simple bedrock concepts like the existence of absolute good and evil are absent from people who don't have a cultural link to Plato (like Japanese folks for example).

I think we have a genetic / predisposed tendency to self segregate. I think that culture can reinforce or reduce this. But it's frankly not supportable to say that a) all races have a common genetic inheritance and that b) all cultures are of equal value. In many ways Spencer is a reaction to these two core fundamental tenets of globalism / progressivism.

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You know, I think I can get behind the idea that people who lived in America, Canada, and parts of Western Europe for the last ,say, 20 generations, have a common underlying background in terms of ideas. I've listened to and read a hell of a lot in my life, but what I have yet to see is someone lay out the rationale for that conclusion. I think this would be a really interesting topic. A lot of times people on these forums post about the "Judeo-Christian" foundation of America. In my estimation, the former thing I described is what they mean. It sounds reasonable to me given the similarities between Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Greek, and Christian myths, but I sense there is a lot of push back on that idea from all sides. What is your interpretation of these statements, and what do you conclude?

I don't know what similarities between Mesopotamian Greek Egyptian and Christian myths. The Mediterranean peoples generally shared a pretty go along to get along approach to polytheism (oh your call your god of war mars? Must be the same dude we call ares etc). But that's about as far as the similarities go.

Before you go to post some ridiculous internet meme about Jesus and some resurrection God from Egypt.. please spare everyone that ignorant tripe. TIA.

k2aggie07 said:

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I don't know what similarities between Mesopotamian Greek Egyptian and Christian myths. The Mediterranean peoples generally shared a pretty go along to get along approach to polytheism (oh your call your god of war mars? Must be the same dude we call ares etc). But that's about as far as the similarities go.

Before you go to post some ridiculous internet meme about Jesus and some resurrection God from Egypt.. please spare everyone that ignorant tripe. TIA.

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Not sure why you would predict this of me. I legitimately believe that Mesopotamian myths are early versions of Christian/Judian myths. That is not to invalidate any of them as "wrong." In my opinion, the Christian/Judian versions are evolved, more powerful versions of the Mesopotamian.

AstroAg17 said:

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Mary is based on Rah, god of the sun.

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I'm trying to have a legitimate discussion. Mary is not Ra.

I'd agree with a good chunk of that. What do you think about the statement that western civilization shares an underlying foundation of belief and virtues? Of course, such a thing might have some dissimilarities over time, but the underlying foundation being relatively consistent.

AstroAg17 said:

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Do you agree that he's racist, and that racism is bad?

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He is a racist, and in a hateful way, and that is bad.

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I don't think his belief in the superiority of whites and his desire for segregation are independent or separable.

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Why not?

Ok, so ignore Spencer. If I were to tell you that I am having trouble finding a logical critique to this statement: "White Anglo-Saxon Protestants should be proud of their heritage, and advocate for the well-being of WASPs and the success of our culture"

Texaggie7nine said:

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Focus on the idea that people of race should aggregate and protect other people of their own race.

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Why? Just because your skin color is the same as mine, why should that facilitate any preference of favoring you over anyone who doesn't have the same skin color? It's a completely ignorant view of the world.

There could be an argument made when it comes to culture. Some cultures just don't mix, that's a non PC thing to say that is true. But culture is not connected to skin color in anything other than the mind. Genetics does not determine your culture.

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So, even Spencer admits this. Race, in his mind, is a lot more about culture than skin color, although genetics do play a role.

So, what is the moral critique against WASCs advocating that WASPs are great, and have lead to many of the great things in this world, and we should be nicer to WASPs?

This is not Spencer's message, admittedly. He is very, very far down the road of WASPs are way better than everyone else, and the world should be run by WASPs. That is despicable.

Methinks you have been hanging out with Bustup too much.

AstroAg17 said:

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Everyone borrows ideas. It doesn't mean one isn't an intellectual. If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. Nobody is smart enough to construct a consistent modern philosophy "from scratch" in my opinion.

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Sure. I don't see any evidence that even the tiniest bit of Spencer's ideas are original.

Dr. Watson said:

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His ideas on race are the thinnest of pretenses. Drawing barriers around ideas or traditions always says more about the person drawing the boundaries than it does about historical reality. "Europe" as we know it today is a pretty new idea, like 19th century new. Before that race was defined much in the same way we would define ethnicity today. Europe having a shared history is really new, like WWI new. "Western Civilization" as a college focus grew out of American involvement in WWI as a way to justify our intervention. The idea of a "Judeo-Christian heritage" became popular before American involvement in WWII.

In short, Spencer's ideas are an amalgam of Nazi notions of race, American notions of race, and ill-defined ideas of a unified continental culture that were created for propaganda purposes.

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Guess how I know you're white. 7nine too.