Good, quick piece from Greg Boyd on Jesus and the OT.

Jesus Refuted Old Testament Laws

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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Ugh, didn't even think about that. Just read it today and thought it would be a good share. That's what I get for posting w/ 15 minutes left in the day.

https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/2625706/1

Nails!

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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Thought the same thing as soon as I saw the title

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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Best post in quite some time round these parts.

agie95 said:

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Always trying to get rid of the Torah...God's actual words...smh. It is sad really. It is obvious the writer knows absolutely nothing about the Torah and I do mean nothing.

Another title of the author, "The Old Testament Not On The Same Planet As The New Testament". Wow.

Can a person who is supposedly a believer have any more disrespect for the word of God?

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How do you justify the morals presented in the Torah? Particularly all the stoning and genocide? Seems dramatically different from what is presented in the New Testament.

I don't have to justify. You either accept God and His word or you don't. Though, it is really no different than the procedures we have today regarding someone guilty of a crime. Depending on the severity of the crime there is different punishments. Their is a court structure one must go through to determine this guilt. Very few people were ever stoned to death as a decree by the court system, which a death sentence could only be handed out by the highest court the Sanhedrin. If the Sanhedrin actually ordered the death sentence within a 7 year period it was considered a bloody Sanhedrin. In other words, it rarely happened.

You may disagree with the punishments handed down by God for the different transgressions made, but that is an issue you have to take up with God.

During the 1st Century, while the Jews were in the land, they were not in control of it. Legally, they could not decree someone to death. They didn't have the proper authority to do so. They were more worried about keeping the peace between the Hellenized Jews, the secular ones, those who were observant, and the foreigners in the land. Any disruption would incur an even heavier hand from the Romans. The Gospels nor the Epistles truly portray the atmosphere the Jews lived in during those times. It wasn't the purpose of them.

Nice dodge.

If God wanted them dead, what business of mine is it to argue?

Besides, with regards to the genocide, we see a reference to their "cup of iniquity not being filled up". Maybe those Canaanites were into some pretty hinky stuff.

It is not a dodge. Where were you when God created the world? Where were you when God created all the animals, plants, the stars and moon, the planets, etc. Who are you to judge His rules. This is basically the outline from Job. Who are you? Who am I? We have no right to question God.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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So according to this article, Jesus refuted the same law that He gave Moses in the first place?

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What kind of god would give a law, and then, more than 1300 years later, admit that it was all a trick to prove that nobody can keep it?

commando2004 said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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So according to this article, Jesus refuted the same law that He gave Moses in the first place?

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What kind of god would give a law, and then, more than 1300 years later, admit that it was all a trick to prove that nobody can keep it?

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What kind of a God would create something as tasty as shrimp and then command people not to eat it just to test their obedience?

7thGenTexan said:

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What kind of a God would create something as tasty as shrimp and then command people not to eat it just to test their obedience?

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So Close- You should of said- Bacon Wrapped Shrimp. So good and tasty!

The answer to all these questions is in the New Testament, it is in Jesus and his followers. Agie95 knows his OT, but he misses how the story unfolds. He misses Jesus and the fullfillment in the NT. Note: this is God speaking! I doubt God gets it wrong.

Acts 10:15 St. Peter had a vision in which God commanded him to eat such foods saying, " What God has made clean, you have no right to call profane." Unclean foods pertain only to the Old Law which is no longer binding. Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

Also if you look at the history of the Jewish/Christian faith, we see development in understanding just like a child goes from infant,toddler, child, teenager to adult. St. Paul encountering Jesus and knowing the entire history of the OT had a much fuller and richer understanding of God than Abraham. It only makes sense to remove ceremonial laws that are no longer required- example- Temple animal sacrifice is not needed when we have Jesus!

Jesus said:

Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

This also gets into Genesis - and it was good. What does God make that is bad? Answer- nothing.

Rather it is the absence of God that makes things bad.
Or as Jesus(God) says not what you eat defiles but what is on your heart.

Ceremonial law circumcision of skin flesh is an act of obedience but as agie95 recognizes what is key is not the act but rather we circumcise our hearts to God.

Except I know the Gospels and the Epistles pretty well as well. Peter tells us the meaning of the vision of wild beasts (who represent Gentiles throughout the Torah and the Prophets; see Deut 7:22, Jer 12:9, Eze 34:5, etc)....Acts 10:28 - He said to them, "You yourselves know that it is not permitted for a Jewish man to associate with a non-Jew or to visit him. Yet God has shown me that I should call no one unholy or unclean.

Peter again claims the meaning as Gentiles in chapter 11.

Man divided the commandments between ceremonial and moral, not God. The sacrifices will be back in the Millennial Kingdom, including the sin sacrifice (Ezekiel 45:17, 23).

Christians take a Jewish text and totally hellenize it.

booboo91 said:

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This also gets into Genesis - and it was good. What does God make that is bad? Answer- nothing.

Rather it is the absence of God that makes things bad.
Or as Jesus(God) says not what you eat defiles but what is on your heart.

Ceremonial law circumcision of skin flesh is an act of obedience but as agie95 recognizes what is key is not the act but rather we circumcise our hearts to God.

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Circumcision of the heart comes first, then the flesh....just like Abraham.

The question of Mark 7 and Matthew 15 is not about what you eat. The question was about eating with unwashed hands (ceremoniously).

Matthew 15:20 - These are the things that make the man unholy; but to eat with unwashed hands does not make the man unholy."

The question was never about food!

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The question was never about food!

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Even when the New Testament directly addresses food it's not talking about food.

agie95 said:

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Except I know the Gospels and the Epistles pretty well as well. Peter tells us the meaning of the vision of wild beasts (who represent Gentiles throughout the Torah and the Prophets; see Deut 7:22, Jer 12:9, Eze 34:5, etc)....Acts 10:28 - He said to them, "You yourselves know that it is not permitted for a Jewish man to associate with a non-Jew or to visit him. Yet God has shown me that I should call no one unholy or unclean.

Peter again claims the meaning as Gentiles in chapter 11.

Christians take a Jewish text and totally hellenize it.

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We totally agree the words from God to Peter pertains to the gentiles- Acts 15. But it also means God does not make unclean foods. We see all of this in the book of Acts- removing requirements of Circumcision, unclean foods- ceremonial laws of mosaic covenant. This is mentioned twice in Acts

Acts 15 28-29 It is the decision of the Holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.'"

Question- The Jews have been following the Mosaic law for nearly 1250 years? Why would they change anything? Why not just follow the rules as they have always done? Non Jews have joined the Jewish Faith before. Why the change? Answer- God spoke to Peter.

Question- Based on God's words, How can anything that God makes be considered unclean? If what God makes is good, how are things unclean? Note: we can't eat everything, some things are harmful, poison to us. but clearly pig and shrimp are good to eat- not harmful.

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Man divided the commandments between ceremonial and moral, not God. The sacrifices will be back in the Millennial Kingdom, including the sin sacrifice (Ezekiel 45:17, 23).

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Yes with the help of God speaking to Peter, Gentiles are let in and the classification of unclean items is removed.

7thGenTexan said:

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The question was never about food!

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Even when the New Testament directly addresses food it's not talking about food.

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You would agree things/events in the bible can have multiple meanings:

Example: "Out of Egypt I called my son" is listed in OT- Hosea and NT Matthew. Pertains to Jews out of Exile and Jesus out of Egypt. Example- Jesus death on a cross had countless meanings. God calling food unclean meant food was unclean, it also covered the gentiles.

Question - is there anything that God makes that is bad/Unclean? Answer- Nope.

We Christians also have similar comments from Jesus:

Matt 15 11.17-18 It is not what enters one's mouth that defiles that person; but what comes out of the mouth is what defiles one." ......Do you not realize that everything that enters the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled into the latrine?
But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile

Note: Jesus is talking about unwashed hands, but the comments are related to God's comments in ACTS. Not what you eat!

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The sacrifices will be back in the Millennial Kingdom, including the sin sacrifice (Ezekiel 45:17, 23).

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Christians would say- Jesus (the perfect unblemished male) Lamb of God is the sacrfice. No animals needed. No more temple needed.

St. John Vision- book of Revelation 5 5-11

One of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. The lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has triumphed, enabling him to open the scroll with its seven seals." Then I saw standing in the midst of the throne and the four living creatures and the elders, a Lamb that seemed to have been slain. He had seven horns and seven eyes; these are the (seven) spirits of God sent out into the whole world.

He came and received the scroll from the right hand of the one who sat on the throne. When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones. They sang a new hymn: "Worthy are you to receive the scroll and to break open its seals, for you were slain and with your blood you purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue, people and nation.

You made them a kingdom and priests for our God, and they will reign on earth." I looked again and heard the voices of many angels who surrounded the throne and the living creatures and the elders. They were countless in number, and they cried out in a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches, wisdom and strength, honor and glory and blessing."
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: "To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever."

booboo91 said:

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You would agree things/events in the bible can have multiple meanings:

Example: "Out of Egypt I called my son" is listed in OT- Hosea and NT Matthew. Pertains to Jews out of Exile and Jesus out of Egypt. Example- Jesus death on a cross had countless meanings. God calling food unclean meant food was unclean, it also covered the gentiles.

Question - is there anything that God makes that is bad/Unclean? Answer- Nope.

We Christians also have similar comments from Jesus:

Matt 15 11.17-18 It is not what enters one's mouth that defiles that person; but what comes out of the mouth is what defiles one." ......Do you not realize that everything that enters the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled into the latrine?
But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile

Note: Jesus is talking about unwashed hands, but the comments are related to God's comments in ACTS. Not what you eat!

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The out of Egypt I called my son is not multiple meanings, but multiple occurrences. Big difference.

Question - is there anything that God makes that is bad/Unclean? Answer- Nope.

Then the Lord said to Noah, "Enter the ark, you and all your household, for you alone I have seen to be righteous before Me in this time. 2 You shall take with you of every clean animal by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female; Genesis 7:1-2

God said there was a difference between clean and unclean. Not man. God made animals that were not to be food. You are so stuck with your theology you cannot see what the word actually says.

Nevertheless, you are not to eat of these, among those which chew the cud, or among those which divide the hoof: the camel, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you. 5 Likewise, the shaphan, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you; 6 the rabbit also, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you; 7 and the pig, for though it divides the hoof, thus making a split hoof, it does not chew cud, it is unclean to you. 8 You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you. Leviticus 11:4-8

Clearly God made a distinction of what is clean and unclean. Answer - A resounding YES!

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Note: Jesus is talking about unwashed hands, but the comments are related to God's comments in ACTS. Not what you eat!

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Wait, wait, you are stating that the topic is about unwashed hands and yet are related somehow to something in Acts.

For I am the Lord your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. And you shall not make yourselves unclean with any of the swarming things that swarm on the earth. 45 For I am the Lord who brought you up from the land of Egypt to be your God; thus you shall be holy, for I am holy.'" Lev 11:44-45

You are wrong about this booboo. God cares what we eat. This is exactly why Jews do not accept your Jesus. If Jesus subtracted from the commandments then He sinned (God forbid) and does not fit the role of the Messiah.

If anyone comes and tells you not to follow God and His ways, this is a test and you should not follow that person. (Deut 13:1-4 paraphrased)

Um....what you believe contradicts Scripture - Ezekiel 40-48 The Temple described here has never been built.

Also in this new Temple - 'Thus says the Lord God, "No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary. Ezekiel 44:9 Any man uncircumcised will not enter...

The savior Christians believed in sinned (God forbid) b/c He changed the Torah, which God said no one could do.

God's word will not return to Him void! Isaiah 55:11

booboo91 said:

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Question- Based on God's words, How can anything that God makes be considered unclean? If what God makes is good, how are things unclean? Note: we can't eat everything, some things are harmful, poison to us. but clearly pig and shrimp are good to eat- not harmful.

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You define unclean as bad, but these two terms are not equivalent. Those animals have a purpose on earth, but they are not food. God called them unclean and said they are not food for you and you and many others change this designation. They may taste good, but they are not to be food says God.

Been lurking a while, but ready to contribute.

The Old Testament had its purpose(s), which have been discussed. The New Testament's purpose, IMO, is to replace the Old with the sacrifice of Jesus. Belief in Jesus replaces all other laws. The NT teaches that Jesus is the ONLY way to Heaven. Not Jesus AND lack of lobster and bacon.

If one believes in/follows Jesus, Heaven is attained, even though those people are sinners.

snowdog90 said:

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Been lurking a while, but ready to contribute.

The Old Testament had its purpose(s), which have been discussed. The New Testament's purpose, IMO, is to replace the Old with the sacrifice of Jesus. Belief in Jesus replaces all other laws. The NT teaches that Jesus is the ONLY way to Heaven. Not Jesus AND lack of lobster and bacon.

If one believes in/follows Jesus, Heaven is attained, even though those people are sinners.

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Great that you want to contribute, but you contributed nothing but an opinion with 0 support. No one here is saying salvation is by works. Your opinion directly contradicts the Messiah's own words:

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill (fully explain). 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-19

Paul's as well:

for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. Romans 2:13

Jacob:

Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. James:17

John:

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. 1 John 2:3-6

Walk as Yeshua did and keep the commandments, otherwise calling yourself a believer makes you a liar and the Torah is not in you.

snowdog,

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Walk as Yeshua did and keep the commandments, otherwise calling yourself a believer makes you a liar and the Torah is not in you.

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In case you are wondering, yes, agie95 is saying that if you eat shrimp knowing what the OT says about it, then you are a liar if you call yourself a believer, and that Christ is not in you.

I'm just talking about getting to Heaven, which in the NT, says can only happen through Jesus. If those that follow all the laws of the OT are treated differently in Heaven than those that follow only the 10 commandments, I guess that's a discussion I am poorly suited to debate.

All sin is sin, and all people are sinners, whether saved or not. Belief in Jesus is the key to Heaven, based on the NT.

Unfortunately, it is not that simple. Getting it to heaven is not just about "believing" in the savior. One is supposed to place your trust in God, who is the savior, then follow His ways. One who truly places their trust in God, will follow His ways.

I just laugh at the 10 commandments that Christians say that is all they need to follow. Based on what? Yet, they don't even follow the 10 b/c they don't keep the Sabbath. Other Christians will say just love others, but how do you love others? Very subjective. What about the 4 items listed in Acts 15:20? Now we are at 15 different things. Why are you supposed to do them? Why keep the 10 commandments or any commandment for that matter, if all you need to do is believe?

Yes, if you are rebellious against God, never repenting, that is lawlessness. Yeshua said for those to go away from Him, He never knew you.