What Every Mormon Needs To Know

Topics
• Mormon books
• Mormon “Elders”
• “Musical Elders”
• What Mormon “Elders” tell prospective converts
• What Mormon “Elders” / Missionaries WON’T tell prospective converts
• Mormonism and the Bible
• The Credibility of the Book of Mormon
• The Testimony of the three “witnesses”
• Plagerism and the Book of Mormon
• Book of Mormon Contradictions with the Bible, and with other official Mormon books
• Mormon Absurdities
• Baptism for the dead
• Polygamy
• Interesting quotes from famous Mormons
• Additional various Mormon beliefs
• Conclusion
• Helpful websites
• Appendix
• An appeal in case the reader wants more information or next steps


Beyond the Bible, there are additional official Mormon books…
• Book of Mormon – “Another testament of Jesus Christ”
• Doctrines & Covenants
• Articles of Faith
• The Pearl of Great Price

Mormon “Elders”
• typically 18-22 year-old young men
• on a two-year mission
• typically far from home
• trying to convert people to their beliefs
• highly motivated by the eternal rewards they are told that they will receive
• required to follow very strict “wholesome appearance and conduct” rules.
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I would submit that their use of the term “Elder” to describe these young men is not only illogical, but unscriptural.
Setting aside the scriptural issue for a moment, in what context would anyone describe a young man as being an “elder”.
The American Heritage dictionary defines an elder as being “an older man”.
By what stretch is an 18-year-old an “older man”?
Well, these young men might counter that the term is being used in a “Biblical sense”.
Fine.
Let’s see what the Bible says about that.
Titus 1:5-9, I Tim 3:1-7, I Peter 5:2 show that the qualifications of Elders include to be married (husband of ONE wife), having believing children.
Their duties include to “shepherd the flock among you” (their local congregation)
Yet here we have young, unmarried, childless men far from home calling themselves “Elders”
Question: where is their Biblical authority for this?
If they (Elders, or Mormons in general) believe the Bible, then they cannot be Elders; if they don't believe the Bible, then there is nothing further do discuss.

Likewise Mormon “Deacons” are appointed as young, unmarried, childless, 12-year-old boys, whereas the Bible teaches Deacons must be married with children.

Musical Elders
This is a game that is a core part of the Mormon’s missionary tactics.
They send out two Mormon young men at a time, one more experienced than the other.
Once you start making progress with either one of them, wham, they’ll be replaced on the next visit. What are they “protecting” them from…the truth?


Here are some of the things these young men ARE LIKELY TO TELL YOU…NOTE THAT I AM NOT SAYING THESE THINGS ARE TRUE – ONLY THAT THESE ARE THINGS THAT THEY ARE LIKELY TO TELL YOU…

• Mormonism began when Joseph Smith, a young man in western New York, was spurred by a Christian revival where he lived in 1820 to pray to God for guidance as to which church was true. (Some accounts say it was after he read James 1:5 and then prayed for knowledge as to which church was right…but this verse is about praying for wisdom…knowledge comes from reading the Bible. ) In answer to his prayers he was visited by God the Father and God the Son, who told him to join no church because all the churches at that time were false, and that he, Joseph, would bring forth the true church. This event is called "The First Vision."

• In 1823 Joseph had another heavenly visitation, in which an angel named Moroni told him of a sacred history written by ancient Hebrews in America, engraved in an Egyptian dialect on tablets of gold and buried in a nearby hill. Joseph was told it was the history of the ancient peoples of America, and that Joseph would be the instrument for bringing this record to the knowledge of the world. Joseph obtained these gold plates from the angel in 1827, and translated them into English by the spirit of God and the use of a sacred instrument accompanying the plates called the "Urim and Thummim." The translation was published in 1830 as The Book of Mormon.

• The Book of Mormon is a religious and secular history of the inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere from about 2200 BC to about 421 AD. It tells the reader that the American Indians are descendants of three groups of immigrants who were led by God from their original homes in the Near East to America. One group came from the Tower of Babel, and two other groups came from Jerusalem just before the Babylonian Captivity, about 600 BC. They were led by prophets of God who had the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is thus preserved in their history, the Book of Mormon. Many of the descendants of these immigrants were Christians, even before Christ was born in Palestine, but many were unbelievers. Believers and unbelievers fought many wars, the last of which left only degenerate unbelievers as survivors, who are the ancestors of the American Indians. The most important event during this long history was the visit of Jesus Christ to America, after his crucifixion, when he ministered to (and converted) all the inhabitants.

• Joseph Smith was directed by revelation from God to reestablish the true church, which he did in 1830. He was visited several times by heavenly messengers, who ordained him to the true priesthood. He continued to have revelations from God to guide the church and to give more knowledge of the Gospel. Many of these revelations are published in the Doctrine and Covenants.

• Joseph Smith and his followers were continually persecuted for their religious beliefs, and driven from New York State to Ohio, then to Missouri, then to Illinois, where Joseph Smith was murdered in 1844 by a mob, a martyr to his beliefs. The church was then led by Brigham Young, Joseph's successor, to Utah, where the Mormons settled successfully.

• The LDS church is led today by the successors of Joseph Smith. The present president of the church is a "prophet, seer and revelator" just as Joseph Smith was, and guides the members of the church through revelations and guidance from God.

• The modern LDS church is the only true church, as restored by God through Joseph Smith. Other churches, derived from the early Christian church, are in apostasy because their leaders corrupted the scriptures, changed the ordinances of the original church, and often led corrupt lives, thus losing their authority.

• By accepting baptism into the LDS church you take the first step necessary toward your salvation and your ultimate entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven (the "Celestial Kingdom".

AGAIN, the above is what the Mormon “Elders” are likely to tell you…I am not saying that any of it is true.

WHAT THE MISSIONARIES WILL NOT TELL YOU

(Background - Keep in mind they probably don’t know all the facts themselves.
They have been trained to give prospects "milk before meat," that is, to postpone revealing anything at all that might make a prospect hesitant, even if it is true…and that if one of their prophets contradicts another, then the more recent or living prophet trumps the other (which begs the question: “was the previous guy a prophet or not?! How do I know that “today’s prophet” won’t be overruled by a “prophet” in the future? How are you supposed to have confidence in this whole thing?” .

AGAIN, THESE ARE THINGS THE MISSIONARIES WILL NOT TELL YOU...
• That "First Vision" story in the form presented to you was unknown until 1838, eighteen years after its alleged occurrence and almost ten years after Smith had begun his missionary efforts. The oldest version of the vision is in Smith's own handwriting, dating from about 1832 (still at least eleven years afterwards), and says that only one personage, Jesus Christ, appeared to him. It also mentions nothing about a revival. It also contradicts the later account as to whether Smith had already decided that no church was true.

• Still a third version of this event is recorded as a recollection in Smith's diary, fifteen years after the alleged vision, where one unidentified "personage" appeared, then another, with a message implying that neither was the Son. They were accompanied by many "angels," which are not mentioned in the official version you would have been told about. Which version is correct, if any? Why was this event, now said by the church to be so important, unknown for so long?

• In 1828, eight years after he says he had been told by God himself to join no church, Smith applied for membership in a local Methodist church. Other members of his family had joined the Presbyterians.

• Contemporaries of Smith consistently described him as someone whose chief source of income was hiring out to local farmers to help them find buried treasure by the use of folk magic and "seer stones." Smith was actually tried in 1826 on a charge of moneydigging.

• The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). Their testimonies are printed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were conveniently retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point. Most of the witnesses later abandoned Smith and left his movement. Smith then called them "liars."

• Smith produced most of the "translation" not by reading the plates through the Urim and Thummim (apparently a pair of sacred spectacles), but by gazing at the same "seer stone" he had used for treasure hunting. He would place the stone into his hat, and then cover his face with it. For much of the time he was dictating, the gold plates were not even present, but in a hiding place.

• The detailed history and civilization described in the Book of Mormon does not correspond to anything found by archaeologists anywhere in the Americas. The Book of Mormon describes a civilization lasting for a thousand years, covering both North and South America, which was familiar with horses, elephants, cattle, sheep, wheat, barley, steel, wheeled vehicles, shipbuilding, sails, coins, and other elements of Old World culture. But no trace of any of these supposedly very common things has ever been found in the Americas of that period. Nor does the Book of Mormon mention many of the features of the civilizations which really did exist at that time in the Americas. The LDS church has spent millions of dollars over many years trying to prove through archaeological research that the Book of Mormon is an accurate historical record, but they have failed to produce any convincing archeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon story. In addition, whereas the Book of Mormon presents the picture of a relatively homogeneous people, with a single language and communication between distant parts of the Americas, the history of the Americas shows the opposite: widely disparate racial types (definitely not Jewish), and many unrelated native languages, none of which are even remotely related to Hebrew or Egyptian.

• Although Joseph Smith said that God had pronounced the completed translation of the plates as published in 1830 "correct," many changes have been made in later editions. Besides thousands of corrections of poor grammar and awkward wording in the 1830 edition, other changes have been made to reflect subsequent changes in some of the fundamental doctrine of the church. For example, an early change in wording modified the 1830 edition's acceptance of the doctrine of the Trinity, thus allowing Smith to introduce his later doctrine of multiple gods.

• Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon contained the "fulness of the gospel." However, many doctrines now said by the church to be essential are not even mentioned there. Examples are the church's position on the nature of God, the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, polygamy, Hell, priesthood, secret organizations, the nature of Heaven and salvation, temples, proxy ordinances for the dead, and many other matters.

• Many doctrines which were once taught by the LDS church, and held to be fundamental, essential and "eternal", have been abandoned or contradicted. Question: How can a church claiming to be the church of God take one "everlasting" position at one time and the opposite position at another, all the time claiming to be proclaiming the word of God. Some examples are:
- The Adam-God doctrine (Adam is God the Father);
- the United Order (all property of church members is to be held in common, with title in the church);
- Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven);
- the Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God's priesthood because it is cursed; this doctrine was not abandoned until 1978);
- Blood Atonement (some sins - apostasy, adultery, murder, interracial marriage - must be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner's blood, preferably by someone appointed to do so by church authorities);

All of these doctrines were proclaimed by the reigning prophet to be the Word of God, "eternal," "everlasting," to govern the church "forevermore." All have been abandoned by the present church.

• Many of the basic historical notions found in the Book of Mormon had appeared in print already in 1825, just two years before Smith began producing the Book of Mormon, in a book called View of the Hebrews, by Ethan Smith (no relation) and published just a few miles from where Joseph Smith lived. A careful study of this obscure book led one LDS church official (the historian B. H. Roberts, 1857-1933) to confess that the evidence tended to show that the Book of Mormon was not an ancient record, but concocted by Joseph Smith himself, based on ideas he had read in the earlier book.

• Although Mormons claim that God is guiding the LDS church through its president (who has the title "prophet, seer and revelator", the successive "prophets" have repeatedly either led the church into undertakings that were dismal failures or failed to see approaching disaster. To mention only a few: the Kirtland Bank, the United Order, the gathering of Zion to Missouri, the Zion's Camp expedition, polygamy, the Deseret Alphabet . The most recent example is the successful hoax perpetrated on the church by manuscript dealer Mark Hofmann in the 1980s. He succeeded in selling the church thousands of dollars worth of manuscripts which he had forged. The church accepted them as genuine historical documents. The church leaders learned the truth not from God, through revelation, but from non-Mormon experts and the police, after Hofmann was arrested for two murders he committed to cover up his hoax. This scandal was reported nationwide.


• Joseph Smith claimed to be a "translator" by the power of God. In addition to the Book of Mormon, he made several other "translations"…

- The Book of Abraham, from Egyptian papyrus scrolls which came into his possession in 1838. He stated that the scrolls were written by the biblical Abraham "by his own hand." Smith's translation is now accepted as scripture by the LDS church, as part of its Pearl of Great Price. Smith also produced an "Egyptian Grammar" based on his translation. Modern scholars of ancient Egyptian agree that the scrolls are common Egyptian funeral scrolls, entirely pagan in nature, having nothing to do with Abraham, and from a period 2000 years later than Abraham. The "Grammar" has been said by Egyptologists to prove that Smith had no notion of the Egyptian language. It is pure fantasy: he made it up.

- The "Inspired Revision" of the King James Bible. Smith was commanded by God to retranslate the Bible because the existing translations contained errors. He completed his translation in 1833, but the church still uses the King James Version.

- The "Kinderhook Plates," a group of six metal plates with strange engraved characters, unearthed in 1843 near Kinderhook, Illinois, and examined by Smith, who began a "translation" of them. He never completed the translation, but he identified the plates as an "ancient record," and translated enough to identify the author as a descendant of Pharaoh. Local farmers later confessed that they had manufactured, engraved and buried the plates themselves as a hoax. They had apparently copied the characters from a Chinese tea box.

• Joseph Smith claimed to be a "prophet." He frequently prophesied future events "by the power of God." Many of these prophecies are recorded in the LDS scripture Doctrine and Covenants. Almost none have been fulfilled, and many cannot now be fulfilled because the deeds to be done by the persons named were never done, and those persons are now dead. Many prophecies included dates for their fulfillment, and those dates are now long past, the events never having occurred.

• Joseph Smith died not as a martyr, but in a gun battle in which he fired a number of shots. He was in jail at the time, under arrest for having ordered the destruction of a Nauvoo newspaper which dared to print an article (which was true) of his secret sexual liaisons. At that time he had announced his candidacy for the presidency of the United States, set up a secret government, and secretly had himself crowned "King of the Kingdom of God."

• Since the founding of the church down to the present day the church leaders have not hesitated to lie, to falsify documents, to rewrite or suppress history, or to do whatever is necessary to protect the image of the church. Many Mormon historians have been excommunicated from the church for publishing their findings on the truth of Mormon history.

Again, the things above are true and proven, but are things the missionaries won’t tell you.

Mormonism and the Bible

The missionaries’ real purpose is to try to convince you that God has given TWO books to mankind, the Bible AND the Book Of Mormon, and they try to use the Bible to persuade you of this, so as to validate the Book Of Mormon in your mind.

They twist Ezekiel 37:15-17 in their effort to do this. The Mormons PRESUME to teach that the "two sticks" mentioned in Ezekiel 37 are representative of TWO revelations (Books) from God; the stick of Judah being the Bible, and the stick of Joseph being the Book Of Mormon.
That is sheer fabrication on their part because the text clearly indicates otherwise!
It is certain from the text that the sticks are DEPICTIONS of the two nations, Judah and Israel, which had been divided upon the death of Solomon, and that they will be joined together into one nation again (vs. 18-28).

The TWO sticks being brought together as ONE is spiritually symbolic that God's "true Israel" shall be ONE under the kingship of Jesus Christ, who is representatively portrayed by king David. (Notice such Biblical teachings as II Samuel 7:8-16; Jeremiah 31:31-34; Luke 1:26-33; John 10:14-16; Acts 2:29-36; 13:16-38).

There is absolutely NOTHING in the context of Ezekiel 37 to support their teaching that one of the sticks is the Book of Mormon and the other is the Bible!

Can one be saved without the Book of Mormon? If the answer is YES, then you can easily see that the Book of Mormon is NOT necessary.


Mormons is that they will assure you that they believe and follow the Bible…that it is the word of God.
However, they do this as long as it suits them.
The Bible is nothing more than a springboard to introduce the BOM into the discussion.
Once you begin to demonstrate that the Bible conflicts with their BOM, they will immediately attack the Bible saying…
• It has been corrupted
• It is unreliable
• That’s why we need the Book of Mormon, etc. etc.
They will quickly produce what they consider to be contradictions in the Bible, ones that can be rather easily defeated, quickly forgetting how they had endorsed it.
But the point is, again, they embrace the Bible as the Word of God, as long as it suits their purposes.
When the Bible starts to expose them, they turn on it like a pit bull.
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Here is something to remember: Any religion that attempts to undermine, discredit, or supercede the Bible is automatically suspect.
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Speaking of the Bible being “corrupted”. The real problem here is that their god is too small.
Our God is able to keep His promises, including that “the Word of God endureth forever.”
Jesus said “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away” (Matt 24:35)
Are we to believe that the same God who spoke the universe into existence was unwilling or unable to preserve His word for His creation?
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If only certain “plain and precious truths were lost”,
as the Mormon Elders would have us believe,
then how was God able to protect only some of the Bible, but not all?
Just exactly what were these lost plain and precious truths that have been made known in the BOM?
Ask them to name one.
If God couldn’t prevent His Bible from being corrupted,
and the Book of Mormon is from God too,
then what kept this weakling God from protecting the Book of Mormon from corruption?
Every corruption claim they aim at the Bible applies to their supposed relevation.
They go to great lengths to convince you of these illogical arguments for one reason:
to pull you away from the Bible, the Word of God,
and push you toward their man-made doctrines…
because these man-made doctrines cannot withstand the scrutiny of the Bible.

The Credibility of the Book of Mormon

The Book of Mormon has on its cover “Another testament of Jesus Christ”, yet what does Galatians 1:8-9 say about anyone (including an angel!) promoting another testament, or another gospel?
v8 - “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
v9 – As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you have received, he is to be accursed!”
How important is that? The point is emphasized not once, but twice.
The Book of Mormon is exactly that…another testament, another gospel, a gospel contrary to the gospel of Christ.
I will share with you shortly some of the many contradictions between the book of BOM and the Bible, to show that it is not only another gospel, but a contrary one.
Even if an angel did appear to Joseph Smith, he is still accursed for preaching another gospel.
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So, did an angel speak to teenager Joseph Smith and deliver a book of gold plates to him that contained “the fulness of the everlasting gospel?”
The Mormon position is that the gospel was delivered in the first century, and AGAIN in 1830, however the inspired writer in Jude 3 says to “earnestly contend for the faith which was ONCE delivered unto the saints.”
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How do they “know” the book of Mormon is true?
The same way they’ll tell you to discover if it is true, to ask God according to Morini Chapter 10 “is the BOM true?” test, and a “still, small voice” / warm feeling, etc. will tell you that it is.
Now keep in mind that people supposedly have God, an angel, or dearly departed Aunt Matilda tell them things all the time.
So here it is with this subjective mystical "feeling," that those who ordinarily govern their day-to-day life by the rules of logic, reason, and evidence, are able to suspend those rules and "sustain" all manner of incredible and conflicting beliefs.
In other words, don’t confuse me with the facts and evidence, I have, based on this feeling, made up my mind.
Note though that the Bible says “Do not to believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (I John 4:1)
On what basis do we test? By a subjective warm and fuzzy feeling?
No, by studying the Bible, which says nothing about seeking the truth through some voice or feeling.
The Bible is based on facts and evidence, it never asks anyone to try to experience some subject “warm feeling” in determining its truthfulness.
Their “small, still voice” may tell them to believe another testament,
but God tells me not to,
and I have it writing…
2 Timothy 3:16-17 says “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works".
We are thoroughly furnished, without any small, still voice, and without the BOM.
Unfortunately, they are so bought into this subjective feeling thing, that if they get a warm feeling that the moon is made of cheese, there may be nothing you can say to convince them otherwise.
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Every book of Mormon makes these statements in the inside cover of title page:
The Testimony Of Three Witnesses
BE IT KNOWN unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we,
through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record,
which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of
Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated
by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the
work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have
been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an
angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the
plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus
Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless,
the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the
commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we
shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and
shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens.. And the honor be to the Father, & to the Son, & to the Holy
Ghost, which is One God. Amen.'
Signed: Oliver Cowdery & David Whitmer & Martin Harris  VERY IMPORTANT

But here are some facts about these three men, these “witnesses”:
1. None of them were present with Joseph Smith supposedly had his vision and received these plates. It all hinges on the truthfulness of Joseph Smith.
2. The three were only witnesses as to the translations being “by the gift and power of God” because the voice of God “hath declared it unto us”.
3. As a side note, there were eight later so-called witnesses, but they could only testify that Smith had some plates that had the “appearance” of gold.
4. All three were all of questionable character
5. All three were eventually excommunicated from the Mormon church.
6. Three of the later set of 8 witnesses renounced Mormonism, and 3 of the remaining 5 were blood relatives of Smith.
7. In fact, all of the witnesses (except Martin Harris) were related to either Joseph Smith or David Whitmer.
8. Here is an interesting quote from Brigham Young: "Some of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon, who handled the plates and conversed with the angels of God, were afterwards left to doubt and disbelieve that they had ever seen an angel." (JOD 7:164 1859).

Specific details of the three witnesses:

Martin Harris:
1. Over his whole life he changed his church affiliation at least 13 times.
2. The Mormons stated of Martin Harris and a few other men within the pages of the church's official newspaper at the time, "a lying deceptive spirit attend them...they are of their father, the devil...The very countenance of Harris will show to every spiritual-minded person who sees him, that the wrath of God is upon him." (Latter-Day Saint's, Millennial Star, Vol 8 pp124-128.)

David Whitmer said in 1887:
1. "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints...'" (Address to all believers in Christ, p27, 1887)
Oliver Cowdery:
1. Was excommunicated from the Mormon church and joined the Methodist church.
2. The Mormon church accused Cowdery of adultery and claimed he had joined "a gang of counterfeiters, thieves, liars, and blacklegs".
3. Joseph Smith described Cowdery as "too mean to mention"
4. Cowdery died claiming that the book of Doctrines & Covenants must be discarded.

This presents the Mormon’s with a real dilemma Catch-22: they need those “witnesses” to validate their existence, but by and large these witnesses were excommunicated or rejected Mormonism, and died outside of their church.
On the one hand they need them, but on the other they want nothing to do with them.
It would appear that the witnesses need witnesses.
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Beyond all this, the Bible discredits the BOM…
The Bible says it contains all things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3).
The Bible does not include or point to the BOM.
Therefore, the BOM does not contain things that pertain to life and godliness.
Joseph Smith’s denies that the Bible contains the whole gospel.
The BOM teaches that a person is a fool if they believe that the Bible is complete.
2 Nephi 29:10 – “Thou fool, that shall say, ‘A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible’…”.
And later…
“Wherefor because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words: neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written”
John 16:13 says The Apostles were guided into all truth by the Spirit
But they were not guided into Mormonism
Therefore, Mormonism is not part of the truth of the gospel
If the gospel contains “all truth” then the BOM cannot contain additional truth. It is therefore another gospel.
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The Book of Mormon contains large sections of the King James Bible, verbatim.
In fact about 1/8 of the BOM is copied directly from the KJV (1611 AD).
Sometimes they couldn’t even plagiarize correctly…
Bible: Isaiah 2:9 "And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not."
Book of Mormon: II Nephi 12:9 "And the mean man boweth not down, and the great man humbleth himself not, therefore, forgive him not."

Here is another example of sloppy plagiarism…
Bible: Isaiah 14:19 "But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain..."
Book of Mormon: II Nephi 24:19 "But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and the remnant of those that are slain..."
Oops, they copied down “remnant” instead of “raiment”.

One more…
Bible: Isaiah 9:1 "...and afterward did more grievously afflict her by way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations."
Book of Mormon: II Nephi 19:1 "...and afterwards did more grievously afflict by the way of the Red Sea beyond Jordan in Galilee of the nations."
When Joseph Smith named the sea, he made a serious geographical error because the sea that Isaiah was talking about was actually the Sea of Galilee. It is beyond Jordan and in Galilee, while the Red Sea is below Jordan and obviously not in Galilee.

Kind of reminds you of the student who “borrows answers from their neighbor” during a test, but copies it down wrong, and still flunks.
Here’s a personal favorite…
Book of Mormon: I Nephi 10:4 "Yea, even six hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem, a prophet would the Lord God raise up among the Jews-even a Messiah, or, in other words, a Savior of the world."
I like how Nephi felt it necessary to define "Messiah" for us.

While embedding large sections of the Bible would seem to give the BOM an impression of credibility (which is certainly why that text is in there), it is also proof that it is a fraud.
The Book of Mormon which Joseph Smith supposedly translated from gold plates, claims to be a record covering from 600 B.C. to 421 A.D., and claims to have been written 1200 – 2000 years before the KJV existed.

III Nephi 12:3-48;13;14 is exactly the same as Matthew 5-7
Mormons can argue why they have word for word verses and chapters from the Old Testament since Mormons claim that the "lost tribe" brought copies with them to the Americas , but this should not be the case with Matthew in the new testament. It is two different people telling the same story word for word; that is obvious plagiarism.

The many passages of verbatim KJV text in the Book of Mormon proves that the Book of Mormon was written (and therefore partly plagiarizing) sometime after 1611, because it was written using the same “King’s english” as the KJV.

To put it another way, why does the BOM use old KJV type English, when it was supposedly translated at a time when the King James style of english was not currently used?

Here’s an analogy…
If you were to have gold plates fall on your lap,
written in some unknown language,
to miraculously translate into English,
how logical would it be for you, in America, to write it using the Old King James style of England, from the 1600’s,
with “thees” and “thous”, instead of in modern (or even “Americanized”) English that is now commonly used?

Furthermore, the text was broken apart into verses with the exact same format.
Mosiah 14, is an exact copy of Isaiah 53 found in the KJV of the Bible, right down to the italicized words that the King James translators put in, except the BOM didn’t italicize them.
Clearly, the BOM was written sometime after 1611, not between 600 B.C. and 421 A.D. as they claim.
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Here is a concept to consider:
God spoke the universe into existence, but he flunks 3rd grade grammar?
Unknown to many Mormons, there have been over 5000 corrections over many revisions made to the original BOM text in grammar, composition, thought and teaching, and yet still contains many errors.
Is this something that was written by God or by inspired men?
Examples include “them days”, “had arriven”, and “had wrote”
Ironically, those who claim to have written the BOM don’t claim to have written by inspiration, with Nephi saying he made this record “according to my knowledge”, and said “if I do err”.
Imagine the inspired writers of the Bible saying “this is what I think, now if what I am writing turns out to be wrong…”
---------------
Some of the errors of the BOM include…
• Christ was never known as “Jesus” before Gabriel’s announcement to Mary. Yet the BOM, written supposedly several hundred years before He was born, refers to Him several times as “Jesus”.
• The BOM has people calling themselves “Christians” at least 73 years before birth of Christ…
< Alma 46:13-16, supposedly written in 73BC, refers to Nephites as Christians. >
but the book of Luke says “the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch (Acts 11:26), around 43 A.D.
Again, in Matthew 16:18 Christ says I will build my Church, obviously it had not been built yet, and there were no “Christians” yet.
• Mormons use water in the Lord’s Supper instead of Fruit of the Vine. Joseph Smith, in Doctrines & Covenants, says it doesn’t make any difference what we use in communion.
The Bible teaches that the two elements are unleavened bread and fruit of the vine. There is no authority for anything else.

Some additional Book of Mormon Contradictions with the Bible…
"Jesus was born in Bethlehem" Mt 2:1 + Mt 21:17 "He shall be born of Mary at Jerusalem" Alma 7:10
3 hours of darkness at crucifixion Lk 23:44 3 Days of darkness at crucifixion Hel 14:20-27
God is spirit without flesh &bones Jn 4:24; Lk 24:39 God has flesh and bones like man: D&C 130:22

Mormon doctrine also contradicts itself! (Note that one or both sides of these statements are wrong… the point is that Mormon doctrine contradicts ITSELF)…



One God
Book of Mormon: Alma 11:27-39, 44; 2 Nephi 31:21; Mormon 7:7; 3 Nephi 11:27 Testimony of the three witnesses
Plural Gods
Doctrine and Covenants: Section 121:32; 132:18-20, 37

God is a Spirit
B. of M. - Alma 18:26-28; 22:8-11
God Has a Body
D. & C. - Section 130:22

God Dwells in Heart
B. of M. - Alma 34:36
God Does Not Dwell in Heart
D. & C. - Section 130:3

Creation - One God
B. of M. - 2 Nephi 2:14; Jacob 4:9 Pearl of Great Price - Moses, Chapter 2
Creation - Plural Gods
Book of Abraham - Chapters 4 and 5

God Cannot Lie
B. of M. - Ether 3:12; 2 Nephi 9:34
God Commands Lying
P.G.P. - Book of Abraham 2:22-25

God's Word Unchangeable God's
B. of M. - Alma 41:8
Word Can Change
D. & C. - Section 56:4-5

No Pre-Existence of Man
B. of M. - Jacob 4:9; Alma 18:28, 34-36
Man Pre-Existed
D. & C. - Section 93:23, 29-33 P.G.P. - Bk of Abraham 3:18, 21-23

Death Seals Man's Fate
B. of M. - Mosiah 2:36-39; Alma 34:32-35
Chance After Death
D. & C. - Section 76:106-112; 88:99

Heathen Saved Without Baptism
B. of M. - Moroni 8:22-23 2 Nephi 9:25-26; Mosiah 15:24-27
Baptism for Dead
D. & C. - Section 128:5, 17-18

Heaven or Hell
B. of M. - 2 Nephi 28:22; 1 Nephi 15:35; Most Saved Mosiah 16:11, 27:31; Alma 41:4-8, 42:16
Three Kingdoms in Heaven - Most Saved
D. & C. - Section 76:43, 70-112

Murder Can Be Forgiven
B. of M.- 3 Nephi 30:2
No Forgiveness For Murder
D. & C. - Section 42:18

THERE ARE MANY MORE EXAMPLES OF MORMON PUBLICATIONS CONTRADICTING THEMSELVES.
----------------
Perhaps the most absurd story in the BOM is the one about the Jaredites building barges in which to travel to America.
When God supposedly told them how to make the barges, He said to make them “the length of a tree”. Now exactly how long is that?!
The size of a Redwood tree?
A Bonsai tree?
What?
Compare that to the precise and nautically sound instructions given to Noah.
When the boats were completed, Jared’s brother had to remind God that the passengers would need windows for air and light.
Really.
God supposedly then told them to put a hole in the top and in the bottom of the barge, “and if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop up the hole”.
So God…
• forgot that these people will need air and light
• wasn’t certain if water would come in if they had a hole in the bottom of the boat
• expected them to be able to plug up the hole in the bottom of the boat if water came rushing in
Another absurdity is…
In 3 Nephi 28:7 Jesus supposedly promised three of his disciples that they would never taste death, but instead remain on the earth, without pain and sorrow, until the Lord comes in his glory. So where are they?

Speaking of absurdity, Joseph Smith said that there are men living on the moon who dress like Quakers and live to be nearly 1000 years old. Since he was wrong about the moon, is it safe to trust him regarding the way to Heaven? (The Young Woman's Journal, Vol. 3, pages 263-264. See reprint in Mormonism -- Shadow or Reality? by Jerald and Sandra Tanner, page 4.)

Mormonism, Inc.

The Mormon church is by far the richest religion in the U.S. per capita, with over $25 billion in estimated assets and $5 billion more in estimated annual income.
How did they get to be so rich?
Here’s a clue.
The first time we had Mormon elders over to study we offered them a Coke (to be polite).
They politely declined…something about wholesomeness or caffeine, they don’t drink that stuff.
Years later we had another group over.
Again, we offered them refreshments, and they happily accepted…Cokes.
Why the change? I’m sure it is just a coincidence, but in the years in-between the Mormon Church apparently took up a large investment position in Coca Cola.
So now it was okay them to drink Coke now, as it was suddenly wholesome enough.
Actually, it’s about business and money…
According to the book Mormon America, the Mormon church has huge investments in…
Household products
Foods
Ranches and farms
Canneries
Manufacturing
Publishing
financial companies, and
insurance…
to name just a few.
Where is the Biblical Authority to operate a church as corporation, with business investments?
The Church – the true Church – exists to preach Christ, not invest in secular business.

Baptism for the Dead
This is baptism by proxy for the salvation of unbaptized dead relatives, in other words, a living person being baptized for the benefit of – as a substitute for – a dead person.
This is the reason Mormons are such meticulous genealogy researchers, with extensive data bases on family histories and family trees, with over 2 billion names…so that you can look up your departed relatives who weren’t Mormons and be baptized for them.
In fact, the church teaches that saints have a moral obligation to trace their families and perform this ordinance on their behalf, so that the whole family tree can be in heaven.
This practice of theirs brings up a contradiction with their very own BOM, which says…
“And, in fine, woe unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins”


Baptism for the Dead?
1Corinthians 15:29 "Else what shall they do that are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?"
As you can well imagine a multitude of interpretations surround this verse. But as in all difficult texts, we can begin by removing those views that contradict other passages in the Bible.
1.Paul approved of the practice (baptism) under consideration in this verse.
"Whatever the practice was, Paul uses it to make a case for the resurrection of the dead. This would have to mean he approves of the practice. If it was an error he could hardly have used it as an argument in favor of the resurrection of the dead. You cannot establish truth on the basis of an error" (McGuiggan p. 195). Some Commentators argue that Paul here refers to a practice in Corinth of which he does not approve, i.e. that Christians were being baptized for their dead relatives who had died outside of Christ. But all the previous abuses referred to in this letter are rebuked.
Fee adds, "The second problem is theological and has to do with how Paul can appeal, without apparent disapproval, to a practice that stands in such contradiction to his own understanding both of justification by grace through faith, which always implies response on the part of the believer.." (p. 764).
2.The practice under consideration was universal:
"There'd be little point in making an argument based on something only a few of them believed. Because the bulk of them who disbelieved would be sure to tell Paul: 'But what do we care what that little group practices. We don't believe that!'" (McGuiggan p. 196). "The present timeless participle describes those who receive baptism at any time, whether in the past, present, or future...All of the Corinthians are, of course, among the baptized...But it also includes all others who receive baptism anywhere and at any time. The one mark that is characteristic of all of them is baptism" (Lenski p. 689).
3.Therefore the baptism under consideration must be water baptism:
It was a universal practice (Mark 16:15-16), every Christian could identify with it (1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 4:5), it was related to the resurrection (Romans 6:3-5), and it had Paul's approval. Hence the only question is, what does the phrase "for the dead" mean?
1."For the dead one"-i.e. referring to Christ:
"This theory says that the person is baptized for the dead one, Jesus Christ. However, the word "dead" is a plural noun, hardly applicable to the person Christ" (Willis p. 562).
2. "Otherwise what shall they do who are baptized? for the dead? (i.e., are they baptized to belong to, to be numbered among the dead, who are never to rise again?) Indeed, if the dead do not rise again, why are people baptized?" (Fee p. 766).
'That is, is one baptized in order to forever be in the realm of the dead? This position has the merit of recognizing the legitimate purpose of New Testament baptism...First of all, one is baptized in order to be saved (Mark 16:16). If there is no resurrection from the dead, what difference does it make whether or not one has his sins washed away...Hence, if the dead are not raised, one's baptism is absolutely nonsensical" (Willis p. 564).

This view also seems consistent with Paul's line of reasoning in the rest of this section (vv. 30-32). For Paul's other arguments reach the same end result, i.e. if there is no resurrection, then no future life exists. (15:32). The logic behind his argument appears to be, that if no resurrection exists, then there must be no need for it, i.e. NO FUTURE LIFE TO BE RESURRECTED TO. Jesus argued in a similar vein. If it can be proved by the Scriptures that man does have an existence apart from the body (Matthew 22:31-32), then you have also proven the need for the resurrection with the same Scriptures. Another way to put this would be to say, that the resurrection implies that the body needs to be reunited with something, i.e. the soul. If there is no resurrection, then the body doesn't need to be reunited with anything, therefore man doesn't have a soul, and hence when man dies he is dead all over. So in the above verse it appears that Paul is saying, if the false teachers are right (there is no resurrection) then baptism becomes absolutely meaningless. For have we been raised to newness of life, to walk with Christ. only in this life? Have we been baptized, only to die?
In addition, if there is no resurrection, then Jesus was not raised from the dead. But we are baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:26-27), therefore, if there is no resurrection, then we all have been baptized into the name of a dead man. What value is that?

Various Thoughts Concerning Mormon "Baptism for the Dead"
The practice violates N.T. Scripture. Such a practice would be false because it would undermine the notion of personal responsibility and personal trust. (John 3:16; Romans 10:17; Acts 2:40; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38) Even in the matter of meat-eating (Romans 14:23) one is not permitted to act on another's faith. How much less in the matter of submission to Christ as Lord
"This Mormon practice, interestingly enough, is totally unknown to the book of Mormon...It was brought into the Mormon movement through the writings of the Doctrine & Covenants...One of the original three witnesses in favor of the book of Mormon, David Whitmer, has written an address to "All Believers in the Bible and the Book of Mormon". In it he claims to have received revelation from God saying that Joseph Smith was led away by the Devil in introducing the D & C which brings in polygamy, celestial marriages, priesthood and baptism for the dead" (McGuiggan p. 198).

"Mormons try to make their practice more palatable to non-Mormons by suggesting that their baptism (for the dead) are for those who "have never heard the gospel". This elicits some sympathy. After all, "they didn't get a chance; is that fair?" This is all subterfuge. The records the Mormons keep (and they keep meticulous records) of those on whose behalf they have been baptized are not pagans in some far off land. They are their own people!" (McGuiggan p. 198).
From the above statements, it appears that concerning some issues, the Book of Mormon also carries very little weight with them. Especially in light of the fact that Alma 34:32-35 says, "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God...For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil..and this is the FINAL STATE OF THE WICKED".
< BY THEIR OWN BOM, THIS LEAVES NO ROOM FOR BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD! >

What does the Bible say about this?
The Hebrew writer declares, “And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the judgment” (Heb. 9:27).
There will be no SECOND chance to avoid the judgment after death.
It is therefore foolish to teach and believe that a “priest” can pray a soul out of (so-called) “purgatory,” or that a Mormon can be baptized FOR a DEAD friend, relative, or unknown person.

---------------------------------
Polygamy

I Corinthians 7:2 "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife and every woman her own husband."
According to the book Mormon America, conservative estimates place the number involved in polygamy at 30,000. Some think the number may be many times that.
At first, even Brigham Young found the secret commandment of plural marriage difficult to swallow. He was quoted as saying “it was the first time in my life I desired the grave”.
He got over it.
Boy, did he get over it.

In later years Brigham Young was quoted as saying…
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 266).
Also, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269).

By the time he died in 1877 Brigham Young had at least 20 wives, and had 57 children with 16 of them.
When interviewed about this in 1859 he was asked “Does not the Apostle Paul say that a bishop should be the husband of one wife?”.
Young answered “but the apostle does not forbid a bishop from having more than one wife”.
Somehow, in Brigham Young’s mind, the specific command to have one wife is also authority to having many wives.
-----------
According to the book The Mormon Conspiracy…

Joseph Smith taught that a man who took ten wives with him to heaven had ten times as much chance of becoming God of his own planet than a man who took only one wife.

It is said that Joseph’s own adventure with plural marriage began with Fannie Alger. Oliver Cowdery, who at one time was second in command of the Mormon Church, called Joseph’s relation with Fannie Alger, at that time about eighteen, “a dirty, nasty, filthy affair.”

Joseph’s polygamist marriages did not stop with unmarried women, as he also “married” Priescindia Huntington Buell, who was the wife of Norman Buell who had left the Mormon Church.

Priescindia had stated that she did not know whether her husband or Joseph was the father of her child.
A picture of her son Oliver Buell in Fawn Brodie’s book, “No Man Knows My History,” shows resemblance to Joseph Smith.
Brodie also states that Oliver Buell was “sealed or adopted” to Smith in the Mormon temple in Salt Lake City.

One of Smith’s wives was only 14 years old.

In April 1843 Smith told one of his targets, Lucy Walker who was 16, that marrying him was a “command of God”, and that damnation would her reward if she refused.
She gave in.
------------------------

Polygamy is yet another area where Mormonism contradicts itself.
Polygamy Condemned Polygamy Commanded
BOM - Jacob 1:15, 2:24, 3:5; Mosiah 11:2 D. & C. - Section 132:1, 37-39, 61
2 Nephi 26:31; Mosiah 27:5 D. & C. - Section 42:71-73; 43:12-13; 51:13-14

Here are some interesting quotes from famous Mormons…

Joseph Smith boasted that he did more than Jesus to keep a church together.
"God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . " (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408-409).

Joseph Smith said there are many Gods.
"Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible . . . Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many . . . but to us there is but one God--that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 474). "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5).

Brigham Young said you must confess Joseph Smith as a prophet of God in order to be saved.
"...and he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is Antichrist." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 312).

Brigham Young said his discourses are as good as Scripture.
"I say now, when they [his discourses] are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible . . . " (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 264; see also page 95.)

Brigham Young said you can't get to the highest heaven without Joseph Smith's consent.
"...no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 289).

Here is a laundry list of various Mormon beliefs at one time or another, feel free to investigate these with me or on your own…

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three Gods:
There are three Gods—the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost—who, though separate in personality, are united as one in purpose, in plan, and in all the attributes of perfection (MD, p. 317).
Three separate personages—Father, Son, and Holy Ghost—comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a God, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists (MD, p. 576).

The 144,000 mentioned in Revelation are all Gods:
At his Second Coming, "the Lamb shall stand upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his Father's name written on their foreheads" .... These 144,000 are Gods .... (MD, p. 546).

Joseph Smith said God was once a man.
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens...I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form -- like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man....it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see....and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3).

Brigham Young said God was progressing in knowledge.
"God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 120).
All men in pre-existence were the spirit children of God our Father, an exalted, glorified, and perfected Man (MD, p. 751).

QUESTION…
If man can become God and God was once a man, and all other Gods before him were first men, then who created the first man to become God? In other words, which came first, the chicken or the egg?

LDS “Apostle” James Talmage said…
"We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement -- a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the Church proclaims the eternal truth: 'As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be.'" (LDS Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, Ch.24, p.430 - p.431, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM)
LDS “Apostle” Bruce McConkie said… 'It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God,' the inspired word continues, 'and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did.' The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same." (LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.64, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM)

Man can become God: Endowed with agency and subject to eternal laws, man began his progression and advancement in pre-existence, his ultimate goal being to attain a state of glory, honor, and exaltation like the Father of spirits. During his earth life he gains a mortal body, receives experience in earthly things, and prepares for a future eternity after the resurrection when he will continue to gain knowledge and intelligence. (D. & C. 130:18-19.) This gradually unfolding course of advancement and experience—a course that began in a past eternity and will continue in ages future—is frequently referred to as a course of eternal progression .... In the full sense, eternal progression is enjoyed only by those who receive exaltation. Exalted persons gain the fullness of the Father; they have all power, all knowledge, and all wisdom; they gain a fullness of truth, becoming one with the Father. (MD, pp. 238, 239).
That exaltation which the saints of all ages have so devoutly sought is godhood itself. Godhood is to have the character, possess the attributes, and enjoy the perfections which the Father has. It is to do what he does, have the powers resident in him, and live as he lives, having eternal increase (MD, p. 321).

Yes, Mormons actually believe that they will become gods.
Mark Dunagan noted…
This is nothing more than the lie that the serpent presented to Adam and Eve in the garden, "You will be like God" (Genesis 3:5).
The Bible makes it clear that in eternity, we will serve God (Revelation 22:3).
Who wants to stand before God and explain why they told others that God was once merely a man and that every faithful person will become Divine?
Does this not cheapen God?
Does this not make mortals equal with God?
Is this not blasphemy?
What honest man or woman really believes that they are evolving toward God-like status?

The Heavenly Father has a body of flesh and bones:
Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body, infinitely pure and perfect and attended by transcendent glory, nevertheless a body of flesh and bones (AOF, p. 38).

God the Father had a Father:
... there is "a God above the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ .... Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that he had a Father also?" (MD, p. 322).

There is also a Heavenly Mother, who is also a Deity:
Implicit in the Christian verity that all men are the spirit children of an Eternal Father is the usually unspoken truth that they are also the offspring of an Eternal Mother .... that man is the "offspring of celestial parentage," and that "all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity (MD, p. 516).

Christ was NOT born of a virgin:
Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers (MD, p. 547).

Jesus Christ is both the Father and the Son:
Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son (AOF, p. 75).

God dwells on the planet Kolob:
Kolob means "the first creation." It is the name of the planet "nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God" (MD, p. 428).

Eternal hell is Gnolom and God dwells in everlasting burnings:
Those who commit the unpardonable sin are doomed to Gnolom—to dwell in hell, worlds without end. As they concoct scenes of bloodshed in this world, so they shall rise to that resurrection which is as the lake of fire and brimstone. Some shall rise to the everlasting burnings of God; for God dwells in everlasting burnings, and some shall rise to the damnation of their own filthiness, which is exquisite a torment as the lake of fire and brimstone (MD, p. 316).

All women are daughters of God:
All women are daughters of God because of their pre-existent birth as female spirits (MD, p. 179).

Millions will have a chance for salvation after death:
The millions who pass to the spirit world without receiving an opportunity during mortality to hear the truths of salvation will receive their chance subsequent to what men call death (MD, p. 673).

The blood of Jesus doesn't atone for the sin of murder:
But under certain circumstances, there are some serious sins for which the cleansing of Christ does not operate, and the law of God is that men must then have their own blood shed to atone for their sins. Murder, for instance, is one of these sins (MD, p. 92).
Brigham Young said your own blood must atone for some sins.
"There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it . . . " (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, page 247; see also, Vol. 4, pp. 53-54, 219-220.)

Lucifer tried to be the Redeemer of the human race:
When the plans for creating and peopling the earth were under discussion in heaven, Lucifer sought to destroy the free agency of man by obtaining power to force the human family to do his will, promising the Father that by such means he would redeem all mankind so that not one of them should be lost. This proposition was rejected, while the original purpose of the Father—to use persuasive influences of wholesome precept and sacrificing example with the inhabitants of the earth, then to leave them free to choose for themselves—was agreed upon; and the one to be known as the Only Begotten Son was chosen as the chief instrument in carrying the purpose into effect (AOF, pp. 49,50).
We learn from the revealed word that Satan was once an angel of light, then known as Lucifer, a Son of the Morning; but his selfish ambition led him to aspire to the glory and power of the Father, to secure which he made the pernicious proposition to redeem the human family by compulsion; and, failing in this purpose, he headed an open rebellion against the Father and the Son, drawing a third of the hosts of heaven into his impious league (AOF, pp. 56,57).

To have eternal life you must learn how to be gods:
Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power ... (MD, p. 321).

There is no salvation outside the LDS church:
If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (MD, p. 670).

The true gospel is only found in the LDS church:
The true gospel of Jesus Christ was restored to earth in the last days through the instrumentality of Joseph Smith. It is found only in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (MD, p. 334).

The President of the LDS church holds the keys of salvation:
The President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds the keys of salvation for all men now living because he is the only one by whose authorization the sealing power of the priesthood can be used to seal men up to salvation and exaltation in the kingdom of God. (D. & C. 132:7.) (MD, p. 411).

Joseph Smith was used to restore the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods:
But the Lord in His mercy provided for the reestablishment of His Church in the last days, and for the last time; and prophets of olden time foresaw this era of renewed enlightenment, and sang in joyous tones of its coming. This restoration was effected by the Lord through the Prophet Joseph Smith, who, together with Oliver Cowdery, in 1829, received the Aaronic Priesthood under the hands of John the Baptist; and later the Melchizedek Priesthood under the hands of the former-day apostles, Peter, James, and John (AOF, p.185).

The Book of Mormon was hidden then delivered to Joseph Smith:
The final struggles between Nephites and Lamanites were waged in the vicinity of the Hill Cumorah, in what is now the State of New York, resulting in the destruction of the Nephites as a nation, about 400 A. D. The last Nephite representative was Moroni, who, wandering for safety from place to place, daily expecting death from the victorious Lamanites, wrote the concluding parts of the Book of Mormon, and hid the record in Cumorah. It was this same Moroni who, as a resurrected being, gave the records into the hands of Joseph Smith in the present dispensation (AOF, pp. 235,236).

The American Indians were Jews by nationality:
Thus the Indians were Jews by nationality (MD, p. 33).

Adam existed before his creation in Eden. He is also Michael the Archangel and holds the keys of salvation over all the earth:
He [Adam] sat in the council of the gods in the planning of the creation of this earth, and then, under Christ, participated in the creative enterprise .... Adam (with the exalted title of Michael the Archangel) led the hosts of the righteous in the war in heaven. (Rev. 12:7-9.) ... holds the keys of salvation over all the earth (MD, pp. 16,17).
An archangel is a chief angel. Michael (Adam) is the only one so designated in the scriptures proper (MD, p. 51).

Adam is called Ancient of Days and all who have held keys of authority will account to him:
Adam is known as the Ancient of Days (MD, p. 34).
At this council, all who have held keys of authority will give an account of their stewardship to Adam (MD, p. 21).

The Garden of Eden was in Missouri:
The early brethren of this dispensation taught that the Garden of Eden was located in what is known to us as the land of Zion, an area for which Jackson County, Missouri, is the center place (MD, p. 20).

Adulterers will suffer eternal fire, then shall go to the telestial kingdom:
Adulterers shall be cast down to hell to suffer the vengeance of eternal fire; and their eventual destiny—after suffering the torments of the damned until the second resurrection—shall be that of the telestial kingdom (MD, pp. 23,24).

The most important things an LDS member can do in this life centers around marriage:
The most important things that any member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ever does in this world are: 1. To marry the right person, in the right place, by the right authority; and 2. To keep the covenant made in connection with this holy and perfect order of matrimony—thus assuring the obedient persons of an inheritance of exaltation in the celestial kingdom (MD, p. 118).

Only the devil, his angels and apostate Mormons (sons of perdition) will go to Hell forever:
They were denied bodies, were cast out onto the earth, and thus came the devil and his angels—a great host of sons of perdition. Those in this life who gain a perfect knowledge of the divinity of the gospel cause, a knowledge that comes only by revelation from the Holy Ghost, and who then link themselves with Lucifer and come out in open rebellion, also become sons of perdition. Their destiny, following their resurrection, is to be cast out with the devil and his angels, to inherit the same kingdom in a state where "their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" . . . . Joseph Smith said: "All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition (MD, p. 746).
After their resurrection, the great majority of those who have suffered in hell will pass into the telestial kingdom; the balance, cursed as sons of perdition, will be consigned to partake of endless wo with the devil and his angels (MD, p. 350).
Thus, for those who are heirs of some salvation, which includes all except the sons of perdition (D. & C. 76:44), hell has an end (MD, p. 351).
---------------------

Conclusion -

The foundation of the Book of Mormon rests upon the shoulders of a teenaged boy with a highly questionable reputation, and as Mark said in an earlier sermon, had a reputation as an imaginative story teller..
Thank you, but that is not where I want to trust my eternal destiny.
Three final telling quotes from Mormons…
Brigham Young said: "I will tell you who the real fanatics are: they are they who adopt false principles and ideas as facts, and try to establish a superstructure upon a false foundation...If our religion is of this character we want to know it; we would like to find a philosopher who can prove it to us."
-Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol.13, pg270, 7/24/1870

“Apostle” Orson Pratt said: The nature of The Book of Mormon is such, that if true, no one can possibly be saved and reject it; if false, no one can possibly be saved and receive it. Therefore, every soul in all the world is equally interested in ascertaining its truth or falsity. . . . If after a rigid examination, it be found an imposition, it should be extensively published as such; the evidence and arguments on which the imposture was detected, should be clearly and logically stated, that those who have been sincerely yet unfortunately deceived may perceive the nature of the deception and be reclaimed, and that those who continue to publish the delusion, may be silenced."

Again, Pratt, one of the original Mormon “apostles” wrote “This book (the BOM) must either be true or false. If true, it is one of the most important messages ever sent from God to man…If false, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laid impositions ever palmed upon the world, calculated to deceive and ruin millions who will sincerely receive it as the word of God”.
I agree 100% with these 3 statements.
It is amazing to me how they will not introduce the concept that their religion may be wrong…
But they also eloquently describe the magnitude of misery caused if it is wrong…
Personally, it make me wonder if they weren’t giving a hint that the whole thing is, indeed, a fraud.
----------------------
===================================
Helpful websites…
http://www.bible.ca/false.htm
http://www.bible.ca/mormon.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~mrsamerica1/index.html
http://www.carm.org/mormon.htm
http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm
http://www.mormonism-disproved.com/
http://www.blessedquietness.com/journal/housechu/confuse.htm

APPENDIX…
Mormonism in a Nutshell
Mormonism teaches that God used to be a man on another world and that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of his god on his home world. In his present god-state, he rules our world. He has a body of flesh and bones and, according to Mormonism, he has a wife, a goddess wife. Since they are both exalted persons, they each possess physical bodies. In their exalted states as deities, they produce spirit children that grow and mature in the spiritual realm. The first spirit born was Jesus. Afterwards were born the devil and all other spirit creatures. After the spirit children are born to god and his goddess wife in heaven, they come down and entered into the bodies of human babies that are being born on earth. During this ‘compression' into the infant state, the memories of their pre-existence is 'veiled.' All people were, according to Mormonism, born in heaven first and then on earth where they are to grow, learn, and return to god.
God the father, who is called Elohim, was concerned for the future salvation of the people on earth. In the heavenly realm, the Father had a plan for the salvation of the world. Jesus endorsed the Father's plan. Lucifer did not. Lucifer became jealous and rebelled. In his rebellion he convinced a large portion of the spirits existing in heaven to side with him and oppose god. God being more powerful then they, cursed these rebellious spirits to become demons.
The remaining spirits sided with God. Since they chose the better way, when it comes time for them to live on earth, they have the privilege of being born in races and locations that are relative to their condition and choice made in the spirit realm.1
In the Mormon plan of salvation there needed to be a savior: Jesus. But Jesus was a spirit in heaven. For him to be born on earth, Brigham Young the second prophet of the Mormon church said that instead of letting any other man do it, God the Father did it with Mary. He said that the birth of our savior was as natural as the birth of our parents. Essentially, what this means is that god the father came down and had sexual relations with Mary, his spirit daughter, to produce the body of Jesus. Jesus, then, was born, got married, and had children.2 He died on the cross and paid for sins not on the cross only, but in the garden of Gethsemane before he went to the cross.
Mormon men and women have the potential of becoming gods. President Lorenzo Snow said, "As god once was, man is. As God is, man may become." In order to reach this exalted state a person must first become a good Mormon, pay a full ten percent tithe to the Mormon church, follow various laws and ordinances of the church, and be found worthy. Afterwards, he or she can enter a Mormon temple and go through secret rituals: baptism for the dead, celestial marriage, and various oaths of secrecy and commitment. Additionally, four secret handshakes are taught so the believing Mormon, upon entering the third level of Mormon heaven, can shake hands with god in a certain pattern. This celestial ritual is for the purpose of permitting entrance into that level of heaven.3
For those who achieve this highest of heavens, exaltation to godhood awaits them. Then, he or she, will be permitted to have his or her own planet and be the god of his own world and the Mormon system will be expanded to other planets.

A Primer on Mormon Theology
The following was written by Marvin Olasky and appeared in the February 16th edition of World Magazine:

"The (Mormon) church had its origins in 1820 when 14-year-old Joseph Smith of Palmyra, N.Y., is said to have had his first vision. Then in 1823, according to Smith, the angel Moroni told him that ancient Hebrews in America had written a sacred history that was engraved in an Egyptian dialect on tablets of gold buried in a nearby hill. Mormons believe that four years later Smith obtained those plates and translated them into English, using a 'Seer Stone', an egg-shaped rock that Smith said had mystical powers. The Book of Mormon published in 1830 and said to be translated from the original golden plates (which quickly disappeared), tells the story of Israelites led by a patriarch, Lehi, who purportedly came to America about 600 B.C. Two tribes descending from his sons Nephi and Laman fought repeatedly until the Lamanites defeated the Nephites around A.D. 385. Mormons say that Jesus after His resurrection came to America, performed miracles and chose 12 Nephites to be His American disciples. Many have questioned the credibility of the Book of Mormon. Hundreds of its verses appear to be copied almost word for word from the King James Bible (the only English version available to Joseph Smith). The Book of Mormon also mentions animals (such as horses) that did not arrive in America until after 1492, and metals (such as steel) that were not made until recent times. It lists many mighty cities built in America, but archeologists have found none so far (in contrast to the abundance of the Biblical cities that have been unearthed). LDS members believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Gods, each of whom achieved godhood from some lesser state. Joseph Smith taught that God the Father 'was once a man like us; yea, that God Himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did'. Mormons say that God the Father now lives in heaven with a wife (known as the heavenly Mother) and with Christ their Son. So do 'exalted' Mormons who become gods themselves. In the words of LDS leader Lorenzo Snow, 'As God once was, man is. As God is, man may become'. President Hinckley (the current President of the Mormon church and their recognized living prophet) has said, 'The traditional Christ of other churches is not the Christ of whom I speak'. His Christ was supposedly the first of billions of spirit children of the Heavenly Father. Mormons believe that long before creation of all men and women who would live on Earth were Christ's spirit brothers and sisters in heaven and grew with Christ to spirit adulthood. At some point Christ was chosen over others to become a savior for his brothers and sisters. He became God while others waited, some for many thousands of years. According to LDS members, immediately after death the spirits of the dead go to a place sometimes called 'spirit prison'. After judgment they are assigned to one of three kingdoms. A Mormon husband and wife who are married in a Mormon temple and done good works can become a god and goddess in the Celestial Kingdom, which is the highest degree of glory. They will have an eternal family, will be able to govern it as God governs His family, and will one day rule worlds as God rules this world". Allow me to make some observations:
1. The immediate thought that struck me was Mormonism is based on the claims of a teenage boy! Why should I entrust my salvation to some 14-year-old-boy?
2. Jesus did not appear to people in America after His resurrection, rather He appeared to Paul last of all (1 Corinthians 15:8).
3. Jesus is not simply one of billions of spirit children, rather, Jesus has always been God (John 1:1), and is the only Son of His kind (John 1:18).
4. The Father did not become God or evolve into Deity, rather He has always been God, "Even from everlasting to everlasting Thou art God" (Psalm 90:2). Who really wants to stand before God on judgment day and answer for telling others that God was once a man?
5. Mormons actually believe that they will become Divine. This is nothing more than the lie that the serpent presented to Adam and Eve in the garden, "You will be like God" (Genesis 3:5). The Bible makes it clear that in eternity, we will serve God (Revelation 22:3). Who wants to stand before God and explain why they told others that God was once merely a man and that every faithful person will become Divine? Does this not cheapen God? Does this not make mortals equal with God? Is this not blasphemy? There also is here a question of honestly. What honest man or woman really believes that they are evolving toward God-like status?
6. Mormonism also presents a very cheap Jesus. According to Mormonism Jesus is really no-one special, He is simply one out of billions of spirit children, and all faithful Mormons will actually achieve a position higher than Jesus, for Jesus is a Son, but they will be a Father and Mother over their own worlds.


According the book The Mormon Conspiracy…
Because of long indoctrination, frequent social interaction in the church, and overseeing by the priesthood, former members find leaving the Mormon Church accompanied by trauma, psychological problems and social disorganization. This is especially so if a member of the church has been born into a family that is active in the church, and has grown to adulthood while a member. To understand why it is so difficult to leave the church, even if one has a strong desire to do so, it is important to know about the intense propagandizing, reinforcement, social controls and the priesthood “watch” that insure members “toe the line” regarding church regulations and doctrine.

An appeal –
This information was prepared especially for you. Christianity IS the answer, Mormonism is not. Are you interested in the truth? There is a place to go where Christians worship in spirit and in truth, relying only on the true Word of God. Please reply if you are interested and if I can assist you in any way.

That has to be the longest post I have ever seen.

Believe it or not, I had to pick and choose from the available material. Do a search on the internet for "Mormonism" or "Mormonism exposed" and you will see what I mean. Bottom line: if it helps even one person to know the truth then it was worth it.

Acts 2:38...this means you!

Well done. Have you had a chance to read "Under the Banner of Heaven"?

Good info, but I recommend picking one or two topics to start with. Those of us with short attention spans have trouble reading something that long

Thanks for the previous 2 replies. Again, sorry about the length...and I was being selective (so much info!). I put the list of topics at the top to help people zero in on particular points of interest. Also, am a first time poster to this particular TexAgs board, and not sure I will be able to spend much time at it...so I went ahead and posted all I had for now.
Hope you will find this info helpful.
No, have not read the book "Under the Banner of Heaven".
A website I recommend...
http://beavertonchurchofchrist.net/

Wait for the home page to paint, then scroll down for a wealth of Biblical materials on about every topic imaginable.
Thanks.

Too long to read all of it, but the parts I read were good. Mormonism, sadly, is a cult. It is a false religion. So many good people have been fooled by it.

It has been said that the ORIGINAL book of Mormon had 14,000 errors in it.

texags77@yahoo.com
Please feel free to respond by email.

The problem we have is that Mormonism, at least in Utah is a CULTURE, rather than cult. If you asked Mormons what they truly believed, most would deny the more esoteric teachings of their own church and more strongly align with mainstream Christianity. They can't see the contradiction in that because Utah does not have a culture where people are taught to confront or challenge either their own beliefs or others. To quote one ex-Mormon (now a born-again Christian), ..."there are very few 'God-bombs' (profound truths) you can drop on Mormons"...
If you challenge the logic of their beliefs, the defense mechanism is always that they have been persecuted. Mormons have to see God at work in congregations and in people's lives, and if they see the blatant hypocrisy and contradiction that dominates the lives of many Christians, they are turned off. One fellow I have known for 15 years (since grad school at the University of Utah) only recently announced he believed the LDS Church is in error.

I suspect that holds true for Muslims as well.

my religion is better than yours.

why ON EARTH would you try and piss on someone's religion like that?

I can't remember the exact quote, but Thomas Merton said something like "I found their story of revelation on a hill in upstate New York unconvincing, and so I was not converted." That pretty much summarizes my view.

Ag2001, it is not pissing.
why?
Mormanism is a lie, and it ruins the souls of the people who believe in it.

Ag2001 - This is far from just trying to bash some religion, when "any religion" or "no religion" will do. Bashing does not win souls. It is called bringing those in error to a knowledge of the truth, rescuing them from Satan, from being lost. Bring people the facts, the truth, and hope they choose wisely.

Quit trying to steal DevaVudew's schtick!





Seriously, though, while I think that most people that frequent this board hold very strong beliefs, it doesn't bode well to start off being so confrontational. It is a discussion board, and as such isn't well-suited to long expositions that seem more interested in expounding a certain view than spurring discussion (hello, pot, this is kettle... ).

Good to have you on board.


here I am...start arguing...

My other identity has an

Some of the best folks I've known have been sticks in the mud!

quote:

---

Man: Is this the right room for an argument?
Mr Vibrating: I've told you once.
Man: No you haven't.
Mr Vibrating: Yes I have.
Man: When?
Mr Vibrating: Just now!
Man: No you didn't.
Mr Vibrating: Yes I did!

---

"Canada can bite my butt." -- janag
"[The] Nobel Peace Prize [is] a subjective award given by Scandanavian socialists." -- Oliver Lang
"i decided i really liked what turtles were all about" -- TCLTC
"Lack of compassion for the world economy? Who do you think runs the world economy?" -- YouBet

"Haven't you learned anything? You're american! why do you have to ask for permission to do anything?!" -- gazoo

Fence Post - thanks for the comments, but I can't say I understood most it. "Locals" probably understand it just fine though, I'm sure. My background on this board is mostly with the football forum, but I did compile some information that I hope will be helpful to those studying with Mormons, not to be confrontational, but to try to help people caught up in that religion. If it helps one person, then it was worth posting it.

Acts 2:38...this means you!

whew... i'm glad i'm catholic and i don't have to know all that.

I'm glad I'm Protestant and don't have to know all of that.

ttt

ora88 -As I read your super long post, it is full of so many errors and "conclusions", that I almost do not know where to start, but I will not just let these things stand unanswered (although almost every one has been answered before). I would be curious as to what was the circumstances that you studied with so "many" Mormons; where and "how" many: Sundays School, priesthood sessions, meetings with only the missionaries? I assume that by your website reference, that you are a Cammpbellite. It is obvious that you are repeating soome one's else version of Church history but that is O.K.

The eleven men who signded the affadavits had impeccable reputations. Joseph would have to have been really something for these men to have been convinced to lie. Three of them saw the angel as he not only showed them the plates but the sword of Laban among other things. Six were later excommunicated but not ONE denied his testimony. Most conspirators usaually turn oon each other -this is the only known instance when with this many, that has not been the case. Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdrey asked to be re-baptised explaining that all they wanted to be was the most humble of members -they did not expect (nor were they given) any position of authority; they died in full fellowship. For a period of time they had thought that Joseph was a fallen prophet when new doctrines were introduced. You should read David Whitmer's final testimony in a tract entitled "Address to All Believers" published in 1887. Shortly before these men died, individuals stood near the beds of the Three Witnesses and recorded their dying statements. In ALL three instances, the men reaffirmed for the last time in mortality their testimony that the Book of Mormon was the word of God. Go figure!

You are in such grave error about the stick of Joseph and the stick of Judah and your description/interpretation of the these verses. He was commanded to WRITE on each stick. In ancient times is was customary to write on parchment and roll it on a stick. When you read the scriptures, you LEARN that the promises and blessings given to Joseph gave him preference over all the sons of Israel incliding Judah. In addition Judah and Joseph were to be separated into two great divisions with Joseph being given a new land that would be abundantly blessed as recorded in Deut. 33. Now granting that the Bible IS the stick of Judah where is the stick of Joseph? Would it not make sense, that since the promises made by the Lord to Joseph and his seed, were greater than to Judah, that SOMEWHERE there would be a record of this, just as there is of Judah. As you know, the Book of Mormon claims to be the "stick of Joseph". There has been NO attempt by anyone or anything to be the "stick of Joseph" and they are truly one today in the Lord's hand. They do provide a spiritual witness of truthfulness of the Gospel, in fact the Book of Mormon also fulfills the ancient law of witnesses which demands that "in the mouth of two or more witnesses shall every word be established" (2 Cor. 12:1).

I would enjoy hearing your explanation of Rev. 14:6-7 "And I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach to every nation, kindred, tongue and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him for the hour of his judgement is come and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountain of waters."

If any nation or people on the face of the earth had the everlasting gospel (in its fullness) there would be no need to send it back! Bits and pieces were and are had in every religion, but the fulness was not here. Someone or some people would have to be put together to take it to every nation, kindred, tongue and people. The angel was not going to do the hard work himself. First, It would require little or no faith to believe an appearance of an angel preaching to millions; Secondly, the Lord as always commisioned his servants, the Prophets to carry out this task.

Your comment about no evidence supporting the Book of Mormon is laughable. This is all that I will address tonight. The Book of Mormon describes many things about this great ancient civilizaton which the critics in Joseph's day said proved, alone, the falsity of the book. No civilization, they declared, predated the Inca Empire, for before them there was nothing but stone-age people. But in the Book of Mormon things such as metallurgy, cement and great walled cities made of stone, etc. were described. These things were used as evidence AGAINST the Book of Mormon. Mesoamerican antiquities were virtually UNKNOWN to most of the world, UNTIL in 1841, 11 years after the Book of Mormon was published, John Stevens made his journey to Mexico and Guatemala and published his book called "Incidents of Travel in Central America and the Yucatan." This book for the FIRST time showed the level of skill, through sketches made, of the ancient inhabitant of Mesoamerica and their WALLED cities that predated the Incas by many hundreds of years. This was just one of the literally hundreds of evidences of the authenticity of the translation made by the Prophet Joseph known as the Book of Mormon.

I can not wait to bring to your attention the newly published book by David G. Calderwood, "Voices From The Dust". For the first times the records and letters sent back to Spain at the time of Columbus, Cortez, etc. and their descriptions of the indians and their culture and religion have been published in English. When they were sent back originally to Spain and Portugal, they were stored away under lock and key for over 300 years. I really urge you and all the rest to acquire this book. It is the most fascinating read. You will want to swear that, somehow, Joseph Smith had access to these. But, of course, no way possible.

I will eat your "elephant" of a post a bite at a time later.

A little question for you: Was Christ's resurrection a physical resurrection or just a spiritual resurrection?

orag80, I don't have any trouble with the content of the post, at least what I read, but the post is way too long.

Perhaps divide it up into chunks for digestion. I did get about 40% through before I ran out of steam, though.

You have enough there to cause LDS reactions for weeks.

Is it me or are we responding to a person who hasn't posted since 2003?

orag....thanks! Im going to print your post off for my reference files.

Unfortuantely it is full of so much false or misleading information as to be virtually worthless. But as Flip Wilson once said, "a lie is as good as the truth, if the people believe it!" You notice he just puts out every old and tired charge but doesn't dare hang around to answer any questions about his statements, personal opinions much less the "facts" that he presents. Every thing he states, any knowledgeable LDS can more than adequately answer!

OSAg01 - yes, we are talking about a post that was from 2003. Looks like someone just recently promoted it TTT.

Ibmagg - keep in mind this material is from research of Mormon publications (references are noted) as well as home studies.

To answer your first question about when I have studied with them. The first occasion was in Houston, when they came to my house every week for 6-8 weeks. A study with another group there, and with ones I worked with, also occurred. Since being in Oregon the last 10 years I studied with a pair of women who came to our home several times, and then Mormon men all the way up to their preacher several times beyond that. I have also had several discussions with Mormons I have worked with. This was some of the contributing material of my sermon on the topic, posted on this thread.

To answer your second question, I am a member of the 5th Street church of Christ in Beaverton, Oregon, where I serve as a deacon. I'm not sure what you mean or are implying by "Cambellite". Are you promoting yourself as a "Smithite"?

For seeing so many erroneous points and conclusion in my material, I'm not seeing many addressed in your response. I'll check back to see if you do indeed address it bite by bite.

Your portrayal of the "history" of Joseph Smith's "experience" does not jive with your own books, esp in light that his account has been altered over the years (compare to earlier versions of the BOM). I also addressed the "two sticks" argument of Ezek 37 already. The sticks are depictions of the two nations, Judah and Israel, which had been divided upon the death of Solomon, and that they will be joined together into one nation again (vs. 18-28). You wrote "He was commanded to WRITE on each stick. In ancient times is was customary to write on parchment and roll it on a stick." So which is it? Were they to "write *on* each stick", or "write on parchment" and roll it on a stick?

Regarding Rev 14:6-7 - note that it says "the" everlasting gospel, not "another" everlasting gospel, as the LDS church refers to the BOM as "another Gospel or Testament of Jesus Christ". "The" true gospel is indeed everlasting, and does not need, authorize, or point to "another" gospel that the LDS or anyone else may offer. Note that Gal 1:8 specifically says that if "we or an *angel from heaven* (who is supposedly the one who delivered the BOM), preach *any other* gospel to you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed". A message so strong that it is reiterated in the next verse. The BOM *is* "another gospel".

Your argument that the gospel is not "full" fails in light of (true) scripture. The New Testament states that the Apostles writings contain *all* things that pertain to life and godliness, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be *thoroughly furnish* unto *every* good work (II Peter 1:3, II Tim 3:16-17). This leaves no room for the BOM or any other such book.

You wrote "If any nation or people on the face of the earth had the everlasting gospel (in its fullness) there would be no need to send it back!".

Response - If this is regarding the common Mormon tactic of insisting that they do indeed believe the Bible is the perfect Word of God (as long as it suits them), and then attacking it as being "corrupted" when it proves them wrong, then here is what I have to say...
I believe in a God that is powerful enough to speak the universe into existance, powerful enough to communicate to us through the perfect and complete written Word, and powerful enough to preserve this written Word from destruction and corruption. I believe that the Word of the Lord abides forever. I do not have to "open the door" to additional later "revelations" because my God wasn't powerful enough to protect what He has *already* provided for us in His Word. I trust Him and His Word.

Let me ask you this, friend: if I read my Bible and my Bible only, understand it, follow it, and live it...can I go to Heaven? That's a very fair and practical question isn't it? If you say "no" then you are denying the passages I just cited, and others like it. If you say "yes", then why do I need the BOM?

You asked "A little question for you: Was Christ's resurrection a physical resurrection or just a spiritual resurrection?".

Response - Christ (The Word, God the Son) was in the beginning along with God the Father and the Holy Spirit (Gen 1:1-2, John 1:1-3). The Word became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14). This body, this flesh was crucified, and was raised on the third day. Later He ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of God (Mark 16:19). I'm not sure what you are getting at, but I understand from your Doctrines and Covenants book that you believe God has flesh and bones like a man, despite what John 4:24 & Luke 24:39 teach (that God is a spirit, and a spirit has no flesh and bones). Christ had a physical body while on this earth in the form of Jesus, not before that, and not since.

Here is more information for you to consider from our website…
http://www.ch-of-christ.beaverton.or.us/Mormon_Beginnings.htm
http://www.ch-of-christ.beaverton.or.us/Mormon_Beginnings_2.htm
http://www.ch-of-christ.beaverton.or.us/Mormon_Beginnings_3.htm

Now let me ask you one more question: do you believe that *you* will be "God" or "a God" someday? Bonus question: was God, our God, once a man?

You wrote "Every thing he states, any knowledgeable LDS can more than adequately answer!"

Response - assuming you consider yourself a "knowledgeable LDS", go right ahead.

I'm not trying to "beat you up"…I'm trying to show you the truth. I hope this helps.

Acts 2:38...this means you!

quote:

---

Are you promoting yourself as a "Smithite"?

---

I love it! Smithites they are!

IBMAGG has lied to try to prove a point about Mormon history. Do not believe him.

When people put their faith in an instituion rather than in god you end up with some very strong defenses being given for obvious facts. This is done by many many churches. It just so happens that two of the churches that do this the most are the LDS faith and the Catholic faith. It would do the faiths good to shine more light upon god rather than putting so much light upon the respective intstitutions.

OrAg80 -Your depiction of the Stick of Judah and the Stick of Joseph is obviously one of your intepretation. The scripture talks about WIRITING or recording the history of Judah and his companions and two do the same for Joseph and his companions. It was understood that when you write upon a stick it was the parchement rolled onto the stick. They were to be joined at a future day in to one record which they are now. Have you ever seen or heard of anything claiming to be the record of the promises made to Joseph or his history. Many biblical scholars state that the most puzzling scripture in the Bible is where Jesus declares "Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold and one shepherd." The reason this is so Puzzling is that no one can explain who are the "other sheep". In Matt. 15:24 Jesus said"...I am NOT sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Jesus sent the Apostles to minister unto the Gentiles. These other sheep were those remnants of the house of Israel who had come to the Americas in 600 BC..the history of which is contained in the Book of Mormon! When you read the new Book "Voices from the Dust" which include the Chronicles of the Conquistordores, colonizers, and Catholic Priests at the time of Columbus and Cortez,etc. you will be shocked! This is what Dr. G. Howard Miller, University Teaching Professor, Dept. of History and Religious Studies, University of Texas at Austin wrote about this new book: "The comparative evaluation between the early Spanish and Portuguese Chroicles and the Book of Mormon is one of the most important historical research projects that I have seen in years."

And from Dr. D. Lynn Johnson, Professor Emeritus of material Science and Engineering , Northwestern Universtiy; "David Calderwood has assembled a truly remarkable collection of data on the traditions and practices of the pre-Columbian peoples of the Americas that eventually came under Spanish domination, as recorded in the EARLIEST chronicles written by the conquerors. These chronicles remained HIDDEN for THREE HUNDRED years, only coming to light recently. He presents CONVINCING arguments showing the CONSISTENCY of many of these traditions and practices with the visit to the ancient inhabitants by Jesus Christ as recorded in the Book of Mormon. Yet Joseph Smith could not have known of the traditions when he translated the Book of Mormon. Calderwood's presentation is clear and readable. This book is a MUST read for students of the early inhabitants of Mesoamerica and particulartly the Andean region of South America." Oh well OrAg80 -back to the drawing board.

That was as about as nebulous answer I have ever heard in trying to explain away John's vision of seeing an Angel in the last days having the everlasting Gospel to be preached to every nation, kindred, tongue and people. First, this NOT another Gospel but the one that existed anciently at the time of Christ. You should be aware that many plain and precious truths were take from the Bible for one reason or another. The apostasy that took place, which your Alexander Campbell preached about with great vigor, was part of that apostaxy process. If the the everlasting gospel in its fullness was still on the earth, in the posession of any nation or people the Lord would NOT have to send it back (and you know this). You have to come up with a more plausible explanation.

So God is a spirit and to worship him we must worship him in spirit and truth. Do you have a spirit? Do you have a body? Does your spirit have to leave your body to be able to worship God? I think not! Your false conclusion that a spirit does noot have a body falls apart when using you logic we should "literally" take Christ's statement to the Apostles in Luke Luke 24:29. After his resurrection Christ appeared to the Apostles and frightended them bady. They thought that they had seen a "spirit". He invited the apostles to handle him and then made this statement "...for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have." With your logic, the interpretation of this scripture would mean the resurrected Jesus no longer had a spirit, but only a body of flesh and bones. Yet we know he had both! And when Jesus ascended into heaven with his resurrected body two angels asked those that were staring at Jesus, as he ascended, as to why they were doing so. The angels declared that this "same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven" (Acts 1:9-11) Thus we know that the resurrected Jesus with his new, glorifed, resurrected, body -quickened by the spirit (no blood), went to heaven. He must still have it it for if his spirit left his body at any time afterwards, he died a second time for that is what death is; the separation of the body and the spirit. Your logic does not hold up. You can't have it both ways. A resurrected being does NOT die a second time. Christ has his body in heaven as does his Father.

The term Campbellites did not originate with me. It is my understanding that this continued use of the name was a term of derision used by other ministers in the same way "Mormons" was used. In addition many of the disciples of Campbell called themselves "Campbellites". I am afraid the term "smithite" didn't seem to work out as the the critics of the Church preferred the term "Mormon". The nickname stuck. For some reason, many Church of Christ people today, do not want to be referred to as Campbellites, almost as if they are ashamed of the name association. Go figure!

To Alexander Campbell's credit and also to his father's, Thomas, they sought a "Restoration" of New Testament Christianity. Although Thomas Campbell preceded his son to America and obtained a position as a pastor in a Presbyterian Parrish it was ruled that he taught heretical doctrines and was dismissed from the ministry. He taught that faith couldbe the result of "an intelligent response of the mind to evidence rather than the accepted teaching that faith was the result of a Spirit-given emotional experience. As you know he continued to preach to the farmers of wester Penn. and in August of 1809, orgaized his followers into an independent society called "the Christian Association of Washington." He claimed that the "association" was not a church, but an association established "for the sole purpose of promoting simple evangelical christianity" and seeking a reduction "to practice that simple original form of christianity." Shortly after Thomas had organized his folowers, Alexander arrived, he assumed the leadership of the movement. Alexander was converted to the doctrine of the believer's baptism by immersion and he was immersed by a Baptist and in 1811, accepted the pastorate of the Brush Run church in what is today Bethany, West Va. During the 17 years that Campbell was affiliated with this denomination he remained a restorationist, teaching several doctrines not in harmony with the beliefs of his Baptist comtemporaries. By 1830 his formal separation from the Baptist was completed. In 1823 he founded and began editing a magazine, the Christian Baptist but in 1830 he changed the name to the Millennial Harbinger, indicating his belief in the imminence of the Second Coming. Throughout the decade of the 1820s, he condemned all beliefs and practices that could not be validated by apostolic mandates. He proclaimed that missionary societies, tract societies, Bible Societies, synods, associations, and theological seminaries were inconsistent with pure religion. He aroused many Americans by insisting that ministers were preaching for "hire". Small wonder that Campblell was not held in the most favorable regard by other ministers. In his zeal for promoting the idea of the need for a restoration, he captions the title page of the Harbinger with a a prophecy included in the Book of Revelation (Rev.14:6) "I saw another messenger flying through the midst of heaven, having everlasting goodness to proclaim to the inhabitants of the earth, even to every nation and tribe, and tongue and people." Does this scripture sound familiar to you?

I answered your question to me in my response to your first post. If it was not complete enough, let me know.

Yawn, wake me up when someone post something that hasn't already been squashed multiple times.

Sorry Oreg80 but your a day late and several dollars short. I read the first few lines and that was all I needed to know that the good LDS people have already beat down everything you had to say.

i'd be more interested to read a response to the criticisms of how the religion came about, rather than it's belief structure. if can't square with the first, i'll never be able to square with the second.

MW03 -I am not sure who your question is directed to or about which religion.

Ibmagg wrote - "Many biblical scholars state that the most puzzling scripture in the Bible is where Jesus declares "Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold and one shepherd." The reason this is so Puzzling is that no one can explain who are the "other sheep". In Matt. 15:24 Jesus said"...I am NOT sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Jesus sent the Apostles to minister unto the Gentiles. These other sheep were those remnants of the house of Israel who had come to the Americas in 600 BC..the history of which is contained in the Book of Mormon!"

Response - I don't know what biblical scholars you are referring to that were "puzzled" about this. Jesus was clearly referring to the Gentiles…the fact that the Gospel is for all. The Apostles preaching the Gospel message to Gentiles as well as Jews was the fulfillment of this. Your explanation is pure fantasy.

Ibmagg wrote - "This is what Dr. G. Howard Miller, University Teaching Professor, Dept. of History and Religious Studies, University of Texas at Austin wrote about this new book: "The comparative evaluation between the early Spanish and Portuguese Chroicles and the Book of Mormon is one of the most important historical research projects that I have seen in years."

Response - yes, we all know how perfect, accurate, and unbiased college professors can be, esp at t.u. They also teach evolution, humanism, and other such things that suit their agendas.

Ibmagg wrote - 'First, this NOT another Gospel but the one that existed anciently at the time of Christ."

Response - ummm…then why does my copy of the BOM say "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" on it? Last I heard, "another" is "another".

Ibmagg wrote - "You should be aware that many plain and precious truths were take from the Bible for one reason or another."

Response - I have heard that party line before. From my notes in the other thread…
If only certain “plain and precious truths were lost”, as the Mormons would have us believe, then how was God able to protect only some of the Bible, but not all?
Just exactly what were these lost plain and precious truths that they can prove have been lost from the Bible and made known in the BOM?
Name one.
If God couldn’t prevent His Bible from being corrupted, and the Book of Mormon is from God too, then what kept this weakling God from protecting the Book of Mormon from corruption?
Every corruption claim they aim at the Bible applies to their supposed revelation.
They go to great lengths to convince you of these illogical arguments for one reason: to pull you away from the Bible, the Word of God, and push you toward their man-made doctrines because these man-made doctrines cannot withstand the scrutiny of the Bible.

And also from my notes…
Many doctrines which were once taught by the LDS church, and held to be fundamental, essential and "eternal", have been abandoned or contradicted.
Question: How can a church claiming to be the church of God take one "everlasting" position at one time and the opposite position at another, all the time claiming to be proclaiming the word of God. Some examples are:
- The Adam-God doctrine (Adam is God the Father);
- the United Order (all property of church members is to be held in common, with title in the church);
- Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven);
- the Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God's priesthood because it is cursed; this doctrine was not abandoned until 1978);
- Blood Atonement (some sins - apostasy, adultery, murder, interracial marriage - must be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner's blood, preferably by someone appointed to do so by church authorities);

All of these doctrines were proclaimed by the reigning prophet to be the Word of God, "eternal," "everlasting," to govern the church "forevermore." All have been abandoned by the present church.

Ibmagg wrote - "If the the everlasting gospel in its fullness was still on the earth, in the posession of any nation or people the Lord would NOT have to send it back (and you know this). You have to come up with a more plausible explanation."

Response - my Mormon friend, YOU are the only ones saying the Lord "sent it back". I'm telling you that the Gospel never left, was never corrupted, lost, etc. You have been sold a bill of goods.

Ibmagg wrote - "So God is a spirit and to worship him we must worship him in spirit and truth. Do you have a spirit? Do you have a body? Does your spirit have to leave your body to be able to worship God? I think not! Your false conclusion that a spirit does noot have a body falls apart when using you logic we should "literally" take Christ's statement to the Apostles in Luke Luke 24:29."

Response - Yes, God *is* spirit. While He has a form, he does not have flesh & bones per the verses I cited. Yes, I have a spirit and a body made of flesh and bones. The difference is God IS a spirit. I HAVE a spirit within my body of flesh and bones.
From your Mormon Book "Articles of Faith", page 38: "The Heavenly Father has a body of flesh and bones: Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body, infinitely pure and perfect and attended by transcendent glory, nevertheless a body of flesh and bones (AOF, p. 38)."
This is a direct contradiction to the passages I cited from the *real* Word of God (Jn 4:24; Lk 24:39).

Ibmagg wrote - "After his resurrection Christ appeared to the Apostles and frightended them bady. They thought that they had seen a "spirit". He invited the apostles to handle him and then made this statement "...for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have." With your logic, the interpretation of this scripture would mean the resurrected Jesus no longer had a spirit, but only a body of flesh and bones."

Response - John 1:1 - The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. As previously stated, Jesus took on the form of a man while here on this earth until He ascended into heaven. It never ceases to amaze me how you can say the Bible is incomplete, corrupted, and contradictory, and then turn right around and quote it as accurate, trustworthy, and authoritative. You embrace it only as long as it suits you!

Regarding Campbell / Campbellites - about the only thing I know about him is that he is one of several men who saw the need and importance to embrace the simplicity and truth of the Gospel, to *be* the church that you read about in the NT. While I don't follow or worship him or men like him, it sounds like he had the right idea. Respect the authority and the teachings of the NT. Call me whatever you like. I don't mind.
Mormons take a different path: cast doubt on the Bible to weaken the faith of the target person who often lacks sufficient grounding in the truth in order to defend that truth, and then swoop in with the BOM "solution" to this terrible situation we find ourselves in of a weakling God who could not preserve and protect His Word from corruption.


Acts 2:38...this means you!

[This message has been edited by orag80 (edited 5/2/2006 9:44a).]

Who and where were the"other sheep" that Jesus was leaving them for? He wasn't going to the Gentiles; as you agreed, the apostles were sent to them. Since Christ was only sent to the house of Israel, where were these other Israelites?

What a weak answer to "Voices From the Dust". I am posting what other critics from Nothwestern University and Texas have to say on another thread; as much as you seem to have no respect for the tu professors, I have never heard anyone accuse them of being pro-Mormon. This book is going to rock your world if you decide to read it, for you will not know how to argue against it. The peope who wrote these things 300+ years ago had no agenda, but only to let their friends and acquaintances know what they had found and seen.

If it were another Gospel it would have said so; do you not understand the importance of testimonies and witnesses? Have you ever read 2 Cor. 13:1 concerning the law of witnesses which DEMANDS that "in the mouth of two or more witnesses shall every word be established"? Think about it!

What makes you think that God "protected" any part of the Bible. He let men do what they would and he knew enough would survive to accomplish his purposes. He knew how evil the people were at the time and the apostles were well aware that not only would there be a falling away or general apostasy (2 Thess. "...that the day of Christ is at hand ... for that day shall NOT come, EXCEPT there come a FALLING AWAY FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" but that the apostasy had already begun as evidenced by the many epistles the apostles wrote trying to correct the errors and false doctrines that were being introduced and accepted by the saints at that time. Who is to say what "truths" were lost alone from the Books of the Bible specifically mentioned in the Bible but not found in the Bible. Luther tried to get the Book of James kept out because there was to much emphasis on works.

You know as well as I that Brigham Young never believed that Adam was God the Father. He is a god and is the presiding high priest of this world directly under Jesus Christ. God is not just a personage but also a position. All you have to do is read the rest of Brigham Younds teachings to know better, but that does not suit the critics of the Church who keep troting out this old, worn out criticism.

It was stated at a future time the blacks would be given the priesthood. You would think a new and young Church, most of whose converts were from New England and known to be anti-slavery (helped cause them a ton of misery in Mo.), would have given the priesthood to the blacks for pragmatic reasons alone--if it had been theirs to give!

Blood atonement was never practiced, the way the critics of the Church like it make it out to be, nor is there ONE incident ever recorded where it was. The full definition of blood atonement explain that a murderer can NOT be redeemed by Christ's blood shed for sinners. Murderers and sons of perdition are not covered. The only chance a murderer has to be forgiven is when his life is lawfully taken by duly constituted LEGAL authorities. That is why Utah has always had the death penalty.

Plural marriage is NOT essential to salvation or exaltation. From Old Testament times forward only a comparatively few were ever allowed or commanded to enter in to plural marriage and the Lord always controlled the circumstances.

I am afraid you had better study the history of your church founder's for they believed whoeheartedly that there had been an apostasy and they were trying to bring it back. They never claimed any devine intervention (therefore an angel coming back from heaven with the everlasting gospel never stopped off where they were) but made only an appeal to the New Testament as "they" interpeted it to bring the church and its practices back as close as they could. They never claimed to have been able to accomplish this.

When you say that Jesus took on the form of a man UNTIL he ascended into heaven, you betray a wilfull ignorance of the scripture! The angle asked the men why they stood staring as Jesus ascended explaining that that SELFSAME Jesus" would return some day. Christ had the apostles handledhim and thrust their hands into the wounds in his "resurrected body" and declared that a SPIRIT hath not flesh and bones as ye se me have. Jesus was alive, his spirit was united with his body forevermore, so he could not have discarded his body before he ascended into heaven or Christ would have died a second time as death is the separtaion of the spirit from the body. Your theology just collapsed and I know it's painful to realized that you have been believing the false doctrine as taught by men!

Your statement of a "weakling" God is yours and yours alone. I could make a much better argument of a "weakling" God by blaming him for the diaster that all the ministers preach about that happened in the Garden of Eden. If God was all knowing, all powerful, and omni-present --then there is no way satan could have ever gotten into the Garden of Eden and messed up God's plan for us! Satan shouldn't have gotten within a hundred or a million miles of this earthly paradise. Anyway, since God created every thing, why did he create something he knew was going to be so evil? Why wasn't the devil immediately banished to outer darkness instead of coming to pass at a much later time? Explain that to me!

As far as not knowing much about your Church's founder, that is an indictment of your intellectual laziness. I suggest you learn how he came up with another man dervived religion that is the philosphy of man mingled with scripture, but it denies the power there of. When you cant't even get God to teveal to your Church, whether it is all right to play musical instrument in it, well; that is pretty weak. And this from a church that for many years after its organization claimed that if you werenot a member of it, you were going to hell. I had two good guys from you church who recruited me to sell books for the Southwestern Publishing Company and they were firm about the position I just described. I would think that if you were the "Lord's Church" he might have some small voice in its affairs instead of just leaving you on your own--like all the other churches have been who did not make the bold claims that your church did!

Ibmagg wrote "Who and where were the"other sheep" that Jesus was leaving them for? He wasn't going to the Gentiles; as you agreed, the apostles were sent to them. Since Christ was only sent to the house of Israel, where were these other Israelites?"

Response - To take this and build a fairy tale that there were Jews in America that Jesus went to (which I fully addressed in the original post for this thread) requires quite a vivid imagination. The whole point of these passages is that the Gospel is for all, Jews and Gentiles (the other flock). It is not to send us on some wild goose chase to America.

Ibmagg wrote "What a weak answer to "Voices From the Dust". I am posting what other critics from Nothwestern University and Texas have to say on another thread; as much as you seem to have no respect for the tu professors, I have never heard anyone accuse them of being pro-Mormon. This book is going to rock your world if you decide to read it, for you will not know how to argue against it. The peope who wrote these things 300+ years ago had no agenda, but only to let their friends and acquaintances know what they had found and seen."

Response - it was a weak argument to respond to. I'm sure its authenticity and truthfulness will rank right up there with the DaVinci code. I'll stick with the Bible, written by inspired men, moved by the Holy Spirit.

Ibmagg wrote "If it were another Gospel it would have said so; do you not understand the importance of testimonies and witnesses? Have you ever read 2 Cor. 13:1 concerning the law of witnesses which DEMANDS that "in the mouth of two or more witnesses shall every word be established"? Think about it!".

Response - I presume this is in response to Gal 1:8. Gospel = message = will = covenant = testament. They all express the same idea. Only one will / testament can be in force for a person at a time, and this covenant is in force when they die. Christ's will, testament, gospel, covenant, message is the New Testament. You cannot have "another one" along with "the one". Only one can be in force. This was also true regarding the NT replacing the OT (Heb 9:15-17). It is true for the BOM. If it is truly "another Testament", then the New Testament would no longer be in force, and Christ would have had to die *again* for this new "testament" to take effect.

I believe in witnesses, two or more, whatever…so long as they are *credible* witnesses. Regarding your three witnesses: Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer & Martin Harris. Here are some facts about their credibility...
1. None of them were present with Joseph Smith supposedly had his vision and received these plates. It all hinges on the truthfulness of Joseph Smith.
2. The three were only witnesses as to the translations being “by the gift and power of God” because the voice of God “hath declared it unto us”.
3. As a side note, there were eight later so-called witnesses, but they could only testify that Smith had some plates that had the “appearance” of gold.
4. All three were all of questionable character
5. All three were eventually excommunicated from the Mormon church.
6. Three of the later set of 8 witnesses renounced Mormonism, and 3 of the remaining 5 were blood relatives of Smith.
7. In fact, all of the witnesses (except Martin Harris) were related to either Joseph Smith or David Whitmer.
8. Here is an interesting quote from Brigham Young: "Some of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon, who handled the plates and conversed with the angels of God, were afterwards left to doubt and disbelieve that they had ever seen an angel." (Journal Of Discourses - Mormon Book - 7:164 1859).

Ibmagg wrote - "What makes you think that God "protected" any part of the Bible."

Response -

First, because I have faith.

Second, because God said His Word endures and abides forever, it "imperishable", the living and enduring Word of God (1 Pet 1:23), that will *not* pass away (Matt 24:35)…clear truths that you deny.

Third, he demonstrated this in Jeremiah 36. He told Jeremiah to write / record all of the Words He spoke to him (Jer 36:1-2). Baruch cut it up and burned it (20-23). God saw to it that it was replaced (v28-32). One way or another, His Word endures forever. You believe that God is weak and His Word is fragile, corrupted, lost, and contradictory. Is this faith?

Yes, men have free will to serve Him or not, fall away. Preachers will preach error, the Bible warns about this (I Tim 4:1ff, II Tim 4:2-4, I John 2:18, etc.), so no one should be surprised. But none of this precludes God from protecting His Word for those who choose to serve Him. You have a serious gap in understanding good and evil, the nature of God, the "free will" that man has, the purposes of God and His power & means for accomplishing them.

Ibmagg wrote - "When you cant't even get God to teveal to your Church, whether it is all right to play musical instrument in it, well; that is pretty weak."

Response - Huh? My church's founder is Jesus Christ, not any man, and certainly not Joseph Smith. It is His church that I am a member of…the body of the saved. The first century church we can read about in the NT. Romans 16:16 "All the churches of Christ greet you". Regarding instrumental music, show me where the NT authorizes it, and I will have no problem with it. For that matter, show me where it authorizes chili cheeseburgers on the Lord's Supper, and I will have no problem with that either. It is a matter of Biblical authority…the same authority that says "if any one brings you another Gospel, even an angel from heaven, let him be accursed", which is an authority you should respect.

It still amazes me how Mormons talk out both sides of their mouths: embracing the Bible as the Word of God, quoting it as authoritative when it suits them, turning on it as "incomplete, corrupted, contradictory, etc." when it condemns them.

Suggestion: make a call once and for all...trust it, or at least be honest & consistent and throw it away!


Acts 2:38...this means you!

[This message has been edited by orag80 (edited 5/2/2006 1:43p).]

[This message has been edited by orag80 (edited 5/2/2006 1:46p).]