What happened on the cross?

This used to make perfect sense to me. It is incredible to me how far I have come to see the absolute silliness of it all.

It would have to be one of 2 scenarios for this to make sense. Either God is merely a pawn in a much larger game where the rules are beyond His power and were never of His origin. Or God just made up some silly rules that make no real sense and is holding Himself to them no matter what.

If Satan and his minions had power before Jesus died on the cross, who gave the power to them? How does god incarnate dying on a cross magically take that power away?

Because Jesus went down into hell? And did what? Take the keys? Did he lock them in there?

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This used to make perfect sense to me. It is incredible to me how far I have come to see the absolute silliness of it all.

It would have to be one of 2 scenarios for this to make sense. Either God is merely a pawn in a much larger game where the rules are beyond His power and were never of His origin. Or God just made up some silly rules that make no real sense and is holding Himself to them no matter what.

If Satan and his minions had power before Jesus died on the cross, who gave the power to them? How does god incarnate dying on a cross magically take that power away?

Because Jesus went down into hell? And did what? Take the keys? Did he lock them in there?

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I've struggled with this myself, and had the same questions. One way I've resolved it in my mind is that the point is about US. It was done this way to send a message to us.

It does seem circular.

But you have free will. You may exercise that to commit sin. Or not. The message that Christ suffered and died for you (and did in fact suffer and die) is about conveying to you the seriousness of this.

You're going to do bad things. The god news is God loves you THIS much. It's been a remarkably effective message.

Seriousness of what? That God absolutely will hate you for all eternity if you do not believe and follow Jesus? Because that is exactly what it would take for the all powerful to send someone to suffer for eternity.

Maybe it's not supposed to make sense to you in the only way you'd be able to understand it.

Scientologists, Mormons, ect use that same excuse.

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But you have free will. You may exercise that to commit sin. Or not. The message that Christ suffered and died for you (and did in fact suffer and die) is about conveying to you the seriousness of this.

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I'm just not convinced He was serious. Maybe if he had stayed in Hell for 4 days I'd be convinced. I mean, 3 days in Hell followed by eternity in Heaven? Where do I sign up for that 'suffering'?

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But you have free will. You may exercise that to commit sin. Or not. The message that Christ suffered and died for you (and did in fact suffer and die) is about conveying to you the seriousness of this.

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I'm just not convinced He was serious. Maybe if he had stayed in Hell for 4 days I'd be convinced. I mean, 3 days in Hell followed by eternity in Heaven? Where do I sign up for that 'suffering'?

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The thing is, you're an atheist right? You're not getting hung up on just this. You just don't believe. For believers this has been very effective.

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Scientologists, Mormons, ect use that same excuse.

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I don't know that it's an excuse. It's a message of Christianity. And one Christians find compelling.

I only found it compelling because I chose to ignore reason because I wanted to believe my christian beliefs so badly.

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Maybe it's not supposed to make sense to you in the only way you'd be able to understand it.

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Oh man... I missed the "In before just because"

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I only found it compelling because I chose to ignore reason because I wanted to believe my christian beliefs so badly.

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I'm not really in that boat. Too doubtful. I've had questions about this. But it's not what hangs me up. Because I believe that what happened is what needed to happen for man to understand.

Now, you make fair points about the "rules." You're created the way you are by God. Why not just create you differently....?

Why give us free will to do bad?

Those are questions I also struggle with.

Really the only thing that throws a monkey wrench in the gears for me is the concept of hell. All that other stuff I can totally get with if not for eternal punishment for that free will.

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Really the only thing that throws a monkey wrench in the gears for me is the concept of hell. All that other stuff I can totally get with if not for eternal punishment for that free will.

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I lean heavily towards the annihilationist view of hell and the conditional immortality of the soul. I'm about to start Fudge's 'The Fire that Consumes' after being recommended to me by my pastor.

The Annihilation theory is what I moved to for a few years before I just lost faith in any hell and that started unraveling my believe in the Bible at all.

It it really is just annihilation for most of the nonbelievers, why would Jesus put so much importance into warning against it? If it really was just annihilation after the judgement, it would be more of a "love me and follow my son and live with me forever, or if you rather just do your own thing and not be with me then I will just annihilate your soul after you die and you wont even know the difference because you won't exist." Instead Jesus seems to really threaten about how it's better to cut off figurative body parts than to risk being annihilated.

and death is no longer a "bad" thing. Since you won't experience it.

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The Annihilation theory is what I moved to for a few years before I just lost faith in any hell and that started unraveling my believe in the Bible at all.

It it really is just annihilation for most of the nonbelievers, why would Jesus put so much importance into warning against it? If it really was just annihilation after the judgement, it would be more of a "love me and follow my son and live with me forever, or if you rather just do your own thing and not be with me then I will just annihilate your soul after you die and you wont even know the difference because you won't exist." Instead Jesus seems to really threaten about how it's better to cut off figurative body parts than to risk being annihilated.

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Solid post and intuitive oversight. Annihilation makes things a bit more palatable. You're also spot on, Jesus Christ preached far more about hell than he did heaven. Sorry you have walked away from the faith, but from your postings it's pretty obvious that you have spent some time in the Word. Here's hoping and praying you return to Christ, because he is able to save and welcomes you with open arms.

and if he doesn't he'll torture me forever. What a loving god. /Texaggie7nine

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But you have free will. You may exercise that to commit sin. Or not. The message that Christ suffered and died for you (and did in fact suffer and die) is about conveying to you the seriousness of this.

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I'm just not convinced He was serious. Maybe if he had stayed in Hell for 4 days I'd be convinced. I mean, 3 days in Hell followed by eternity in Heaven? Where do I sign up for that 'suffering'?

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Still don't believe Jesus ever went to Hell. Where is there support for this in the Bible? Maybe I just missed it.

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The Annihilation theory is what I moved to for a few years before I just lost faith in any hell and that started unraveling my believe in the Bible at all.

It it really is just annihilation for most of the nonbelievers, why would Jesus put so much importance into warning against it? If it really was just annihilation after the judgement, it would be more of a "love me and follow my son and live with me forever, or if you rather just do your own thing and not be with me then I will just annihilate your soul after you die and you wont even know the difference because you won't exist." Instead Jesus seems to really threaten about how it's better to cut off figurative body parts than to risk being annihilated.

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We have a hard enough time understanding the nature of the physical world that we currently live in, 2000 year later and after MONSTROUS leaps in understanding the nature of the universe.

It's strange to me to believe that we can comprehend what Jesus was really talking about when he starts delving into this spiritual realm where the laws of physics apparently do not exist the way that we know them.

I'll take his word for it that it would be bad. Really bad. That's all I profess to know about the subject of hell.

My mind will no longer allow me to pray to, cry to, be in love with a god that would ....... look at that, I almost said "allow", that is the word I used to use to sterilize the idea.... send all humans that did not truly follow Jesus to be in eternal suffering.

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I only found it compelling because I chose to ignore reason because I wanted to believe my christian beliefs so badly.

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I'm not really in that boat. Too doubtful. I've had questions about this. But it's not what hangs me up. Because I believe that what happened is what needed to happen for man to understand.

Now, you make fair points about the "rules." You're created the way you are by God. Why not just create you differently....?

Why give us free will to do bad?

Those are questions I also struggle with.

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These are the interesting questions, to me.

Is free will really worth it? It sure leads to a lot of pain and suffering. But, I can't imagine living without it. What would life be like if free will didn't perfectly exist?

Why are we forced to live in imperfect knowledge? If this spiritual world that exists after we die is so important, why not show us more of it?

I can only say that living a life of Christian values has been a blessing. It has blessed me, my family, and to a very marginal extent, the world.

My faith didn't really come until after my decision to live as a Christian. The questions about the nature of God are very tough, but the lifestyle and mindset taught by Jesus really is empowering.

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Is free will really worth it? It sure leads to a lot of pain and suffering. But, I can't imagine living without it. What would life be like if free will didn't perfectly exist?

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Are you so sure free will really does exist?

Free will only exists in religion. People respond to external compulsion with inner necessity. That's not free will.