Questions for those who support gay marriage

1,237 Views | 54 Replies | Last: 14 yr ago by PetroAg87
RingOfive
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Should a man be allowed to marry his sister if they are both concenting?

Should polygamy be legal if everyone in the relationship is concenting?

I ask this because the logic of the pro-gay marriage crowd seems to be, "why should the govt stop concenting adults from getting married?"
jkag89
How long do you want to ignore this user?
consenting
Rocag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Yes to both. Although in the first case there are legitimate concerns regarding birth defects in any children they might have that should be considered. I might be swayed on that one.
RingOfive
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Tanks fur correktin mi speeling jk.
LethalWeapon5
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Their general response will be like "well, lol, those things are different, because those things are bad for society."

My question is always then, "who is to say what is "bad" for society? What does that even mean, especially outside of the Context of a God-centered absolute morality?

Also, who is to say that gay-marriage won't be a negative thing for society? How can we even measure that ?

From a Constitutional perspective, there are really two angles on this.

The two arguments are Equal Protection and Fundamental Rights.

The Fundy rights arguments has to do with what's being done, and the Equal Protection has to do with who is being "discriminated against."

Under Fundy Rights, statutes against gay sex have been overturned. Some thing Gay Marriage can be argued similarly. I disagree, because sex is something between only two consenting adults, it is quite a private thing, and privacy is a fundemental right. They do argue that choosing the type of family one has, is generally a fundamental right. Sure, that's true. Cities can't prevent a grandma from housing her two grandkids, by writing statutes that only "family" units can live in stand alone housing, for instance.

I think the argument you put forth here, falls under this fundy rights Branch, no? We don't allow just "any" group of people to call themselves a family and have government protection, do we? Here the state has a vested interest in the functioning of the building blocks of society. Scalia has made these same arguments in gay marriage type cases.

The thing to think about is whether gay marriage is more like two consenting, opposite sex adults getting married, or more like a dude having 8 wives, incest and/or bestiality.

If it's more like the former, then constitutionally, it should be allowed. If it's more like the latter situations, then constitutionally, it can be disallowed.

So far, at least when I read concurrences, the Court views homosexual marriage to be more similar to the latter.

Under equal protection, we look to several ways in which there could be a violation through discrimination. We could look to discriminatory intent, or we could look to discriminatory effect. We could also look to discriminatory enforcement of the same law.

With homosexual marriage, they would argue that there is a discriminatory effect. Here, people in similarly situated positions are being treated differently.

The question again is whether or not two consenting adults of opposite sex who want to get married are similarly situated to two consenting adults of the same sex who want to get married.

You will often see the argument made that "hey, everyone has the same right, to marry someone of the opposite sex." Although that's true, some will argue that there is precedent indicating that the crux of whether or not something is discriminatory actually comes down to whether or not the facts on which the differentiation is made on, actually effects the ability to conduct a certain activity.

For instance, we might say "hey now, taxation disproportionately harms those of Iranian heritage (since on average Persians are in a higher tax bracket than everyone else.) Is there intent of discrim? No. Is there discrim effect? Sure. Does it matter? No, because being persian has nothing to do with the effect, it's just a coincidence.

You can see that it's different when it comes to same sex marriage. The actually sexuality of the people in question is the very thing on which the discrimination is being based on.

But that raises the question again, if we allow gay marriage, then can we hold out the other types on equal protection grounds? This is what you ask with your question.

When we talk about equal protection, we have to look towards levels of interest the government has in the actions, and to what level the discrimination is suspect. If the highest level of suspect discrimination (reserved mostly for racial discrim) then the government must have an overriding interest.

If based on sex, then the government must have an important interest to be able to discriminate.

If there is no suspect classification, then the government only needs a rational basis to step in and do what they need to do to govern.

Being siblings is not a suspect classification. Government can basically do what they want here. Wanting to marry multiple people is not a suspect class, although one might argue that religion could be a suspect class. Even then the government might have an important interest in making sure that society has enough wives and husbands for one another.

On the other hand, gay marriage could be argued on the basis of sex. Now you've got intermediate scrutiny. So it should be treated differently, than your examples, under the Constitution and case law. Here the discrim is based on sex, right? Because hey, if one was a dude and one was a chick, we'd let them get married. So now the government needs a compelling interest to regulate that kind of marriage.

So, I guess that's my explanation.

Oddly enough, when I started to write this, I was in the no gay marriage camp, and after, I now think that there can be a pretty good argument for gay marriage under equal protection.
jkag89
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I'm a rather poor speller and always cringe when I later spot my own errors in my post.
RingOfive
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Lethal, you should be banned for writing a well-thought, thoroughly explained, reasonable post. These boards are only for inflammatory and illogical arguments that result in name-calling.
ro828
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Brother and sister: I'd oppose it for health reasons, as the offspring would be prey to major health problems. Marriage between too close relatives was why the son of Czar Nicholas was a bleeder and I've heard many opine that this is why the British royalty has few members with IQ's above room temperature. That said, if a brother and sister are creative (and dishonest) they can get a marriage license at any City Hall...unless, of course, they're Siamese twins and that would be hard to explain away.

Polygamy? An American institution. It's call serial polygamy. Marry this person, get a divorce; marry that person, get a divorce........

As far as "harming" the institution of marriage, no two Gays could possibly hope to make a farce of it like Kim Kardashian (probably spelled wrong).

Like Clint Eastwood, I don't give a #### who gets married to who, and neither should the government. Straighten out the economy, secure the borders, make our educational system and health care system first in the world again, THEN deal with silly non-issues like this.
Win At Life
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Your a gey sechs looser moran.
Macarthur
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I agree with ro.
Aggrad08
How long do you want to ignore this user?
No brother or sister. I don't even like causins although the rest of the world is pretty ok with that. Genetics demand diversity.


Polygamy should be legal as a practice but not available for government marriage licsencing. The laws are set up for two people, putting in more than that causes a myriad of issues-divorce, child custody, rights during hospital care, child support, taxation etc.

I simply don't understand the objection to gay marriage. If not for religious reasons then why. You should have to demonstrate that it does do harm to deny the right. It's not like the "institution" of marriage is at risk because of gays.
SigChiDad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
As far as "harming" the institution of marriage, no two Gays could possibly hope to damage it like no fault divorce.


fify

Gay marriage is nothing more than kicking the corpse.
Aggrad08
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
Under equal protection, we look to several ways in which there could be a violation through discrimination. We could look to discriminatory intent, or we could look to discriminatory effect. We could also look to discriminatory enforcement of the same law.

With homosexual marriage, they would argue that there is a discriminatory effect. Here, people in similarly situated positions are being treated differently.

The question again is whether or not two consenting adults of opposite sex who want to get married are similarly situated to two consenting adults of the same sex who want to get married.

You will often see the argument made that "hey, everyone has the same right, to marry someone of the opposite sex." Although that's true, some will argue that there is precedent indicating that the crux of whether or not something is discriminatory actually comes down to whether or not the facts on which the differentiation is made on, actually effects the ability to conduct a certain activity.

For instance, we might say "hey now, taxation disproportionately harms those of Iranian heritage (since on average Persians are in a higher tax bracket than everyone else.) Is there intent of discrim? No. Is there discrim effect? Sure. Does it matter? No, because being persian has nothing to do with the effect, it's just a coincidence.

You can see that it's different when it comes to same sex marriage. The actually sexuality of the people in question is the very thing on which the discrimination is being based on.

But that raises the question again, if we allow gay marriage, then can we hold out the other types on equal protection grounds? This is what you ask with your question.


This is a fair point and contains non of the religious mumbo jumbo. But let me ask you a question. Couldn't this exact same argument apply if the government didn't allow mix race marriages and people wanted to marry outside their race? It seems an equally justifiable argument to reject mix race marriage by these same exact standards.

I realize you changed your mind half way through the thread but it's food for thought.

[This message has been edited by Aggrad08 (edited 11/11/2011 10:39a).]
Dad-O-Lot
How long do you want to ignore this user?
What if the brother and sister are infertile, or too old to have children?
Aggrad08
How long do you want to ignore this user?
^^^

That's a good question. And for reasons like that I want government out of the marriage business entirely.

If people want to do that in their own home that's fine. But I don't want fertility tests as a matter of government licensing. And this question really is just academic-societal taboos against incest are pretty universal. I've never even heard a story about a bro and sis who wanted to marry.
amercer
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Two issues with polygamy:

1. Widespread polygamy is problematic for society as it creates an underclass of young men with no shot at a wife. This works if you fight a lot of wars or have a large percentage of your young men killed off in some other fashion, but in a modern society it could be a problem. We'll see how China deals in the next 50 years.

Despite what the libertarians would have you believe, Americans have always accepted some infringement on their personal rights in order to promote a more stable society. It's a balancing act, and widespread polygamy I think would could cause enough harm to tip the scales. The idea that polyogomy would become widespread in the US is a little far fetched though.

2. Marriage is a legal arrangement between 2 persons, and cannot function equitably between more than two persons. Historically this isn't a problem for polygamy because women had no rights anyway. In modern America it would be a huge and intractable problem for the legal system. Courts certainly can adjudicate on multiparty contracts, but marriage law is based on hundreds of years of precedent and statutes designed for 2 parties. I do think the government should get out of marriage altogether, but that doesn't mean the courts will get out of having to decide on custody, or property ownership, or spousal rights for power of attorney.

I'm ambivalent about polygamy because I don't think it will ever become widespread in the US. The societal forces that made it a functional (and sometimes mutually advantageous) relationship don't really exist anymore, and most women aren't going to sign up for a fundamentally equitable relationship in the modern world. Plus you can cohabitant with as many "wives" as you want, so in practice it's already currently legal as long as you don't try to get state sanction. There are enough issues though that, like with marijuana, I favor decriminalization more than outright legalization.
amercer
How long do you want to ignore this user?
As for the brother/sister thing, yeah who cares? Brothers and sisters can already legally boink (if they are of age), and that's the nasty part anyway. The threat to offspring is a little overblown as well, because most of the concentration of deleterious alleles will only occur if you have consanguineous marriages over many generations (which is what got the European Royal families in trouble).
LethalWeapon5
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Aggrad, as to mixed marriages, the Court has determined that there are levels of scrutiny that must be applied depending on the kind of discrimination that's occurring.

There are 3 (kind of) levels of scrutiny, based on the kind of discrimination.

Strict Scrutiny
Intermediate scrutiny
Rational Basis (and another that I personally see in the trends that is a Rational Basis Plus system, where animus is involved.)

Important to note, is that the burden of proof shifts as you get less and less scrutiny. So, for the government to do the top 2, they have to show compelling/important interests. Basically, they have to show that they are actually helping a "disenfranchised minority." The government generally only wins these whenever they are doing affirmative action, or making it easier for women to pass physical training tests for government positions. Alienage also fits in to those two categories, depending on the circumstances. Usually the government can discriminate for important government positions, when it comes to alienage, to preserve democracy, supposedly. There are some other categories of disenfranchised, but I don't remember them.

Needless to say, gays aren't considered one of these groups, so they fall to rational basis review. Under rational basis review, the government doesn't not have to demonstrate that their reasons are correct, they just have to have a reason. If you're not in a suspect class, then you have the burden of proof of showing that the government's reason for doing something isn't good.

So, under doctrine, you can see, that mixed race marriage falls under strict scrutiny. The government can't show a good reason here, although they tried for some time. That's right out.

Again, gay marriage falls under rational basis review. Now there has been some movement away from a strict rational basis review in many other instances of gay rights, that's why I think there is another level of review called "rational basis plus" where the burden on the government is to show that their reason is not one driven by unreasonable animus (this method first found footing in discrimination against old folks.)

I'm not sure why no one has argued that it's not about sexual preference, but rather that it's about sex. Then the party would step up the level of review to intermediate scrutiny, pushing the burden of proof on necessity of statute over to the government. Maybe it's been done and I'm not familiar with it, but I haven't seen it.

[This message has been edited by LethalWeapon5 (edited 11/11/2011 11:31a).]
Sh-to-the-Izzo
How long do you want to ignore this user?
i personally don't have a problem with governments affording ANY two consenting adults the legal relationship historically reserved for a husband and wife.

i do however have a problem with governments using the term 'marriage' in describing this legal relationship; at least to me, the term 'marriage' should be reserved for use within the Church.
PetroAg87
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
Should a man be allowed to marry his sister if they are both concenting? Should polygamy be legal if everyone in the relationship is concenting?
Yes to both if everyone involved are consenting adults.

quote:
Brother and sister: I'd oppose it for health reasons, as the offspring would be prey to major health problems.
Would you also then support prohibitions on marriage for anyone who has a gentically based medical condition?
boboguitar
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
Brother and sister: I'd oppose it for health reasons, as the offspring would be prey to major health problems.


Are you also going to petition for a law making smoking and drinking illegal while pregnant?
Ginger14
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I don't care who gets married. If a brother and sister are really so in love that they want to make a commitment for the rest of their lives, who am I to say they shouldn't?

Polygamy works well for some. Just because I could never be in a polygamous relationship does not mean I should be allowed to prevent others from doing so.

In my opinion, the government should not restrict any marriage between consenting adults. Who am I to tell someone their lifetime commitment means less than mine just because they love someone of the same sex?
10PennyNail
How long do you want to ignore this user?
If some nitwit wants to deal with multiple husbands/wives that is their own funeral. I was married once and the thought of dealing with multiple wives makes me cringe.

I concur with the earlier poster that the incest is icky but it isn't my place to say they can't be a couple.

As long as the word Marrage is associated with a civil union, then anyone who wants to be married should have the opportunity to do so. Seperate the religous from the civil, and the word becomes meaningless to me.

diehard03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
i do however have a problem with governments using the term 'marriage' in describing this legal relationship; at least to me, the term 'marriage' should be reserved for use within the Church.


Why do we want to give the government power to set the definition of a word that we claim is ours?!

It's just a word.

There are more important hills to die on.
commando2004
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
Although in the first case there are legitimate concerns regarding birth defects in any children they might have that should be considered.


So, procreation is irrelevant when it comes to gay marriage but relevant when it comes to incestuous marriage? Yeah, that makes sense.
Beer Baron
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I'd say yes to both. And commando's right - procreation shouldn't be a reason for prohibiting consenting adults from entering whatever legal arrangement they want to enter into.

Petro also raises a good point - if two people are carriers of Tay-Sachs should we prevent them from marrying each other because any children they may have could possibly be afflicted? What if they don't have kids or are too old to have them, but they carry the bad genes?

To me all of this is beside the point though because I'm pretty sure health problems for offspring of incestuous parents aren't a foregone conclusion. Just like two parents who are carriers of Tay-Sachs aren't guaranteed to have children with that ailment.

[This message has been edited by Beer Baron (edited 11/11/2011 7:54p).]
BrazosDog02
How long do you want to ignore this user?
How I feel about it:

Marrying siblings: seriously, that's gross. What the f--- is wrong with you?

Polygamy: weird and gross.

Homos: who the f--- cares. It's no skin off my nose. They leave me alone and they can do as they please. I don't even know what the hell the argument or complaint is. It drives me nuts when some "Christian" has the balls to scream about right and wrong and cite gay marriage as if they are somehow remotely qualified to utter a single word about it. Why don't people just focus on their own lives and marriages (or broken ones where their banging their secretary) and let others do the same.
Ag_of_08
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I actually don't give a damn what two consenting adults do in there private lives, as long as it doesn't directly effect me.

The GOVERNMENT should not be telling anyone they CAN or CANNOT get married. Period.
Rocag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Commando, yeah procreation is irrelevent for gay couples because they can't normally procreate and therefore there is no potential for anyone else to be harmed. And I think what others have said is true, the government has no business telling people they can't have children because of some potential genetic risk. That line of thinking could be used in countless other situations.
Post removed:
by user
PetroAg87
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
Societies which accept polygamy risk having the most powerful men monopolize the pool of available women. This may be OK in a primitive society, which needs nothing more from most men but their labor, but if you want to move past that, then you gotta move past polygamy
quote:
See China, and the time bomb its one woman one child policy has set in place.
So you're OK with the US government placing the "good of society" over individual rights and liberties. And yet you then immediately turn around and condemn the Chinese government for doing the same thing?
Post removed:
by user
PetroAg87
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
I was noting that it is dangerous to tinker with this stuff in any form.
And was it not "tinkering" to allow interracial marriages???

quote:
I think it is interesting that there was no laws against homosexual marriage.
Instead, the government used laws against homosexual behavior as justification to ban recognition of homosexual marriage. That was an example of government interference with individual liberties just as they continue to do in refusing to recognize homosexual marriage.
boxerdemon
How long do you want to ignore this user?
But...see, we have these things called elections. Voting. People vote on such measures usually, because politicians are too busy/unwilling to fool around with the topic of gay marriage because...wait for it...most people don't give a damn about it.

I don't care about it. The gay people I know tend to not care about it either. I don't give a rat's ass and the majority of my friends don't care either. If you want to get married, fine. Want to ban it forever, fine. It doesn't matter to me.

So we have elections. Now I'm a republican, so the candidates who come out strongly in favor of gay marriage are people I wouldn't vote for anyway because they're usually democrats. And the republicans who run know that they must cater to the population who is socially conservative to get elected, so they come out opposed to gay marriage. I must vote for that candidate because I agree with the majority of his politics, even if his stance on such things as gay marriage is off-putting.

I care more about me than I do about you. Deal with it, hippie.
PetroAg87
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Well, boxerdemon, I don't disagree with your reasoning. Unfortunately there certainly are way too many people out there who "don't give a damn" about whether the rights and liberties of others are being violated and worry only about themselves. One of the reasons that it took as long as it did for women's rights and civil rights to take root in this country.

Page 1 of 2
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.