Really, I'm just curious? I read verses like these in Hebrews 4:14-16 that says:

"Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are - yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need."

How is the role that the Catholic priest serves justified if these verses from Hebrews are true? Once again, I'm sincerely asking.

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Preventing teen pregnacy by handing out condoms is like preventing murder by handing out bullet-proof vest!

James 5:16

16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

So, it's not just Catholics. You need to do it as well.

[This message has been edited by me1og (edited 2/26/2009 10:28p).]

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James 5:16

16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

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But is James giving guidelines for priest here or just for us as believers? Doesn't the role of the priest in the Catholic Church have more responsibility than to just hear confessed sin?


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Preventing teen pregnacy by handing out condoms is like preventing murder by handing out bullet-proof vest!

[This message has been edited by bleed maroon ag (edited 2/26/2009 10:32p).]

If the OP lacks clarity, perhaps it should focus more on what role does the priest serve in the Catholic Church and how does it relate to the verses in Hebrews 4:14-16? Do you as a Catholic feel that you can approach God yourself, or do you have to go through a priest?

________________________________________________________

Preventing teen pregnacy by handing out condoms is like preventing murder by handing out bullet-proof vest!

[This message has been edited by bleed maroon ag (edited 2/26/2009 10:46p).]

"How is the role that the Catholic priest serves justified if these verses from Hebrews are true?"

First off, let me say that the priest does not have any power of his own. He does not forgive sins of his own power, but of the power and grace of Christ working through him.

Now, these sins do say that we can, "approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy..." but it does not say how we are to go about receiving this mercy. Christ himself gives us the answer:
"'As the Father has sent Me, so I send you.' And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained." John 21:21-23

It is this power to bind and loose sins that has been passed down through the ages from bishop to bishop, priest to priest, to the present day. The priest doesn't know what sins to forgive unless we tell him the sins we commit, hence we have the sacrament of confession.

Hope this helps.

The OP's question is one I have often wondered myself. I especially have a hard time reconciling the sacrament of confessing sins through a priest with 1Timothy 2:5-6 which says...

"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time."

For the record, can one be a "good catholic" without ever confessing sins to a priest? Even say he confesses sins with a close group of friends who are always there to pray for him? What is it that gives priests the authority to where their prayers would be better than any christian brother? Do women confess sins to a priest? If so wouldn't it be better for women to confess to other women?

"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time."

One mediator redeemed us. The priest does not redeem us; he is but an accredited agent of the one mediator. Confession is but one way of applying the mediation of Christ to men even as baptism is another. And if baptism is a sacrament for the destruction of sin which we ourselves committed before baptism as well as for the sin which we inherit from Adam, another sacrament is most fitting for the destruction of sins which we do personally commit after baptism. Christ certainly thought so, and instituted the sacrament of Confession in John 22.

"For the record, can one be a "good catholic" without ever confessing sins to a priest?"

The sacrament of confession is the normal way to obtain forgiveness for the sins that are committed after baptism. However, Catholics who are unable to find a priest are forgiven if they make an act of perfect contrition or sorrow, but such an act supposes at least the intention of going to confession when the opportunity presents itself. For perfect sorrow supposes the will to go God's will.

"What is it that gives priests the authority to where their prayers would be better than any christian brother?"

Because Christ specifically gave them the authority when he instituted the sacrament.

The theological phrase you are searching for is: soul competency.

Catholics fundamentally do not believe that the average human posseses it.

Ironically, the "lower" denomination you go, the increase that that denomination typically ascribes to soul competency increases, culminating in Baptists.

To my knowledge, Baptists are the only known denomination that once (though currently do not) subscribed to the "Priesthood of the Believer" as opposed to what so many protestants do, "Priesthood of the BelieverS".

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And if baptism is a sacrament for the destruction of sin which we ourselves committed before baptism as well as for the sin which we inherit from Adam, another sacrament is most fitting for the destruction of sins which we do personally commit after baptism. Christ certainly thought so, and instituted the sacrament of Confession in John 22.

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This still doesn't make sense in light of scripture.

Hebrews 7:26-27 -
"For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself."

Your explanation implies that when we are baptized all our past sins (before baptism) are forgiven. Then you say that the sacrament of confession to a priest covers all the sins we commit after baptism. That verse says Christ died for our sins, once and for all. I.E. when we are saved, our sins are covered. We do not need to continually perform some ritual ("offer up sacrifices" ) to get rid of our sins if we are saved.

In John 22, these events take place before Pentecost. That passage says Jesus breathed on his disciples and gave them the Holy Spirit. Thus, the disciples had an authority that most people at that time did not have (in the Holy Spirit). I don't believe Jesus intended for it to continue to this day. That was a specific time and a specific place.

Even then, I don't see how this institutes the sacrament of confession to a priest. Far from, actually. When Jesus forgave people of their sins, they didn't sit there and give out the laundry list of every sin they've committed. A woman touched Jesus' robe, and it was her faith in Jesus that healed her, not the act of confession.

Matthew 9:20-22
"And a woman who had been suffering from a hemorrhage for twelve years, came up behind Him and touched the fringe of His cloak; for she was saying to herself, "If I only touch His garment, I will get well." But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter,take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well."

Mark 2:3-5
"And they came, bringing to Him a paralytic, carried by four men. Being unable to get to Him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above Him; and when they had dug an opening, they let down the pallet on which the paralytic was lying. And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

Where, in either of those two cases, did it take confession of sins to be healed/forgiven of sins? What makes you think that if Jesus forgave sins without them mentioning specific sins they have committed, that it became a necessary step when he gave that power to his disciples in John 22?

When you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. I think part of that is admitting that you ARE A SINNER, and yes you are GUILTY of sin. The people in the Bible who Jesus forgave of their sins did no more than that.

[This message has been edited by TriumphForks (edited 2/27/2009 2:21a).]

Tradition only.

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So, it's not just Catholics. You need to do it as well.

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James 5:16 has absolutely nothing to do with confessing to a priest. James is echoing Yeshua's words:

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Matthew 5:23-24: Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

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We are to confess our sins to the people we have wronged, not secretly to a priest. One of these reveals faith, the other does not.

"Confession" involves not only admitting to the wrongdoing but also to making the necessary restitution to the person who was wronged.

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 2/27/2009 8:02a).]

Go find a Catholic Priest and ask him. I wouldn't listen to the opinion of the spin off theologians on this board.

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Go find a Catholic Priest and ask him. I wouldn't listen to the opinion of the spin off theologians on this board

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Translation: Just trust what we say, and don't bother doing any investigation to determine if we're trustworthy.

We have really two directions here. Someone asks why you confess to priests, and the answer is basically scriptures that mention, discuss, and mandate confession to one another.

Confession is biblical. That is fairly difficult to argue. Having to do it to a priest is one way, and I may add even as a prot. a legitimate way, but it is not the only way, and it is fairly impossible to validate as the practice that has evolved in the Catholic Church.

I agree with Beretta. Also, I question why there is resistance to the idea of confession to a priest. I have the following:

1) Confession to one another is good, and facilitates forgiveness among us. Furthermore, you can look at texts like "when 2 or more is there, I am there" and make that the case that while God wants to have a relationship with him, he also wants us to have redeemed relationships with each other.

2) A priest is someone whose full time vocation is to soak in the Word, live a life seeking out to God, and shepherding the church. If there's ANYONE could give you Scripture to help you through your struggle, or show you the loving arms of God, it would be him. I can't see how confessing to one's priest can ever be a bad thing.

3) Maybe I should just come out and say it: Why is confession to other humans seem like pulling teeth? It let's us truly "be Christ" to each other when we can partner in something like that. Confession sets us FREE by giving someone else to share with. God want us to to not only lean on him, but each other.

I feel like a lot of the negativity surrounding stuff like this really isn't about the Catholic traditions - it's about our own insecurities with difficult things.

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Translation: Just trust what we say, and don't bother doing any investigation to determine if we're trustworthy.

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I don't think she's saying that. I think it just means that a priest will probably be able to give someone a better response that someone on this forum. We have shown in the past a great ability to be wrong.

The person can still judge and investigate based on the priests words.

TexAgs is like a merry go round. Ever so often the same question gets asked.

I don't feel like getting into some long thread today about what everybody thinks the bible says about this or that. Having everybody determine what the correct interpretation of the bible is like we do on TexAgs is bound to result in differences. That’s nothing new but I just don't have time for it today.

I will post what I've posted previously about the question and then I'll bow out.

* * * * * * * * * * *

I once said, "We should only confess our sins directly to Jesus. That is what I don't like about the Catholic Church." God's word, however, changed my mind and heart about the matter.

Catholic Christians believe, as do some other Christians (Anglicans and Orthodox primarily), believe that Jesus gave to the Apostles and their successors the power to forgive sins, reconciling sinners to God for sins committed after Baptism.

Lets look at the bible....

Firstly, Jesus forgave sins.

Mk 2:5
When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Child, your sins are forgiven."

Lk 7:47
So I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven; hence, she has shown great love. But the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little.

Jesus scandalized some Jews of his own time by claiming to have the authority to forgive sins.

Mk 2:7
Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming. Who but God alone can forgive sins?

Jesus clearly stated that he had the authority to forgive sins.

Mk 2:10-12
"But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins on earth"-- he said to the paralytic, "I say to you, rise, pick up your mat, and go home." He rose, picked up his mat at once, and went away in the sight of everyone.

Jesus gave the same authority to Peter.

Mt 16:19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Jesus later gave the same authority to all the Apostles.

Mt 18:18
Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The Apostle John, an eyewitness, recorded more directly the words of Jesus giving the power to forgive sins to all the Apostles after the testimony of the Resurrection.

Jn 20:23
Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.

Many Christians ask why confession of sin is required for forgiveness. The Church responds that the need for personal confession of sin is required in order for forgiveness because that is the only way a confessor (Priest) can judge whether to forgive or retain sins. A judgment cannot be made unless the sin in question is known and the disposition of the penitent is also known.

The New Testament speaks of confession of sin...and in terms of confessing with your tongue not just your heart.

Ja 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed.

1 Jn 1:9
If we acknowledge (confess) our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.

Other New Testament scriptures bear witness that the Apostolic Church acknowledged the use of the power to forgive sins.

Acts 2:38
Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."

1 Jn 1:9
If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.

1 Jn 2:12
I am writing to you, children, because your sins have been forgiven for his name's sake.

Question: Why would John have to write to a church and tell them that their sins had been forgiven? How would you, evangelical Christian, feel if your pastor told you, "Your sins are fogiven." Would that offend you because he isn't Jesus and doesn't have that authority?

Further, the constant teaching of the Church and the Fathers of the Church in explicit words testify to the existence and use of the power to forgive sins in the Church.

The Didache, (70-110AD), Ch.4:13
You shall confess your offenses in church, and shall not come forward to your prayer with a bold conscience. This is the way of life.

Tertullian (Rome, 160-220AD), On Modesty, Ch 21, ML 2, 1024 "But," you say, "the church has the power of forgiving sins." This I acknowledge and adjudge more than you; I who have the Paraclete Himself in the persons of the new prophets, saying, "The church has the power to forgive sins"

Ambrose (Tier, 340-397AD) See that sins are forgiven through the Holy Spirit. But men make use of their ministry for the forgiveness of sins, they do not exercise the right of any power of their own. For they forgive sins not in their own name but in that of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. They ask, the Godhead gives, the service is of man, the gift is of the Power on high.

Jerome (Stridon, 345-419AD), Letters, No. 14, ML 22, 352 "Far be it to censure the successors of the apostles, who with holy words consecrate the body of Christ, and who make us Christians. Having the keys of the kingdom of heaven, they judge men to some extent before the day of judgment, and guard the chastity of the Bride of Christ.

In conclusion, the Church does have a biblical and theological basis for the ministry of recocilliation.

Also see: Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 - even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.

2 Cor 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.

So, sorry Prof. Gradoo...its not just 'tradition.' The fact that you reject confessing to a priest, however, is a tradition and a new one at that.

So, sorry Prof. Gradoo...its not just 'tradition.' The fact that you reject confessing to a priest, however, is a tradition and a new one at that.
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Yes it is just tradition, and the book of Hebrews cannot be ignored. I believe confession is a great behavior to engage in, but you do not need a priest. And today, more educated people are doing their 'confessing' to a therapist instead of a priest; a priest can say some nice words, but the therapist can teach you to change your behavior for the better.

OK...

Last comment because I have work to do.

We don't ignore Hebrews Prof Gradoo. That Christ is the High Priest is Catholic doctrine. Look it up. Hebrews says absolutely nothing about sacramental confession in the Church. If Hebrews is saying what you think it says than it would be a clear contradiction of John 20:23. It would also be a clear contradiction of all the talk that Paul gives about priestly ministry in the church.

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And today, more educated people are doing their 'confessing' to a therapist instead of a priest; a priest can say some nice words, but the therapist can teach you to change your behavior for the better

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Oh, such high and mighty therapist talk. I guess 'educated' people don't need to confess their sins in the church to a priest and confession is just for uneducated country bumpkins.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

A) Confession is a ministry of the church and is FREE. The church does not charge somebody $100/hour to talk to them.

B) Some of the best advice that I have ever received about living a holy life was heard while I was in the confessional.

C) Only a priest, not a therapist, can say ‘in persona Christi’ by the authority of the Church through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, “Your sins are forgiven. Go in peace.”

There is a place for rightly ordered therapy but it is not to replace the ministry of reconciliation that was given to the Church by the Lord Jesus.

C) Only a priest, not a therapist, can say ‘in persona Christi’ by the authority of the Church through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, “Your sins are forgiven. Go in peace.”

There is a place for rightly ordered therapy but it is not to replace the ministry of reconciliation that was given to the Church by the Lord Jesus.
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C- forgiveness of sins has nothing to do with confessing to a Catholic priest. Again, that is tradition (which apparently means it is off limits for questioning).

Again, I think confession is great from a psychological standpoint; but why not do it with someone who can actually assist you in changing your behavior, instead of simply having someone say the "magic words."

I have never turned down someone for counseling due to an inability to pay. That is one of the big reasons I worked in the Pastoral Counseling field. The $100 clients are necessary to make a living so we can see the other folks.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
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I take this to be an emotional response not grounded in reality; don't start sounding like diamond.

"C- forgiveness of sins has nothing to do with confessing to a Catholic priest."

If that is true, then why would Christ give his apostles, the first bishops, the power to forgive and retain sins? Was he saying, "I give you this power, but don't use it, that would be against my teaching. You just need to confess your sins directly to me, okay?" Of course not.

"Again, that is tradition (which apparently means it is off limits for questioning)."

Here's what the Didache says: "Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

If this sacrament was born out of just tradition, with no root in scripture, then why is there no uproar in the early church about this passage? This document was written while John the apostle was still living! Why do we find no record of the early church and the apostle John correcting this "un-biblical" practice, if in fact it stems directly from tradition? History is silent, of course, because confession is a thoroughly biblical sacrament, which has been practiced in the church from the beginning.

This whole issue is one of the many problems with Catholicism. It's just not Biblical. Confession is good and Biblical of course, but the whole Catholic setup is not Biblical. Whether or not you confess to a priest or to your friend has NO bearing on your forgiveness. It's between you and God. You don't need a priest to tell you you're forgiven. If you sin on Tuesday and confess it right then and there to the Lord, boom, it's DONE. You are forgiven. No further confession needed, and certainly not to one certain person who is a sinner just like you. That priest has no more "power" than any other Christian.

JMJ, your answers are all from Catholicism 101 and not much else. Quoting a church father does nothing for your position. And Jesus never called his followers "bishops." Just admit it, you guys made this stuff up (which is ok) and do not like anyone questioning your traditions.

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Just admit it, you guys made this stuff up (which is ok) and do not like anyone questioning your traditions.

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Case and point why rational dialog is almost impossible.

I quoted 8-10 passages of scripture. Nobody has bothered to provide any alternative exegesis.

Jesus looked at his diciples and said, "AS THE FATHER SENT ME, so I send you. He breathed on them and gave them the Holy Spirit and said, "If you forgive sins they are forgiven. If you retain them they are retained." What a strange thing for Jesus to tell his apostles (who we know appointed successors from Acts 1) if we only need to pray to Jesus by ourselves after we commit sins and go pay Prof. Gradoo $100 to talk to him about them.

[This message has been edited by Seamaster (edited 2/27/2009 11:39a).]

I mean...gradoo says we should admit that we 'made it up.'

OK. When did we make it up? Apparently we made it up in about AD 70 when John was still alive. Over 200 years before the Trinity was defined and over 300 years before the canon of scripture was defined.

What a vast and intricate conspiracy.

None of those verses you quote mention anything about confessing to a priest. Well, actually they do, but the priest it's referring to is the great high priest, the one and only person who can forgive sins. We need no earthly intermediary, and there are verses that explicitly state as much.

[This message has been edited by watty (edited 2/27/2009 11:59a).]

cant the bible just be open to interpretation by different christian faiths?

why the need to tell someone else that they're wrong?

watty,

The scripture he posts tells that the apostles were given power to bind and loose by Christ.

What are they going to bind and loose?

Were they only going to bind and loose during their lifetime and everyone afterward plays by a different set of rules?

Give me a freaking break. There is as much Biblically to support the Catholic doctrine of confession as there is to support numerous Prot. doctrines.

To difference is you discount it because you don't want to beleive that you could perhaps be wrong.


[This message has been edited by clw04 (edited 2/27/2009 12:12p).]

OK. When did we make it up? Apparently we made it up in about AD 70 when John was still alive. Over 200 years before the Trinity was defined and over 300 years before the canon of scripture was defined.

What a vast and intricate conspiracy.
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It isn't that big a deal really, most theology is made up. Just don't use Scripture to justify what is not there.

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watty,

The scripture he posts tells that the apostles were given power to bind and loose by Christ.

What are they going to bind and loose?

Were they only going to bind and loose during their lifetime and everyone afterward plays by a different set of rules?

Give me a freaking break. There is as much Biblically to support the Catholic doctrine of confession as there is to support numerous Prot. doctrines.

To difference is you discount it because you don't want to beleive that you could perhaps be wrong.

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I think what watty is saying, but I don't want to speak for him, is that everyone of those scriptures gives to the apostles the power to do those things; however, non-Catholics apply those scriptures to every believer in Christ, not just to priests.


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Preventing teen pregnacy by handing out condoms is like preventing murder by handing out bullet-proof vest!

[This message has been edited by bleed maroon ag (edited 2/27/2009 12:44p).]

bleed,

Then its all about interpretation and not about it not being in the Bible?

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bleed,

Then its all about interpretation and not about it not being in the Bible?

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That's right. Interpretation that has to be done through the Holy Spirit and independent from what any denomination teaches, what its traditions are, what its goals are, etc. (and I'm speaking about both Catholic and Protestant Churches). Because lets face it, heaven's going to be a melting pot of all these churches, not any particular one of them!

________________________________________________________

Preventing teen pregnacy by handing out condoms is like preventing murder by handing out bullet-proof vest!

"I think what watty is saying, but I don't want to speak for him, is that everyone of those scriptures gives to the apostles the power to do those things; however, non-Catholics apply those scriptures to every believer in Christ, not just to priests."

The key here is that Jesus said, "As the Father as sent me, so I send you..." The word apostle means "those sent". He was clearly speaking only to the apostles and not to everyone.

"..he breathed to them and said to them..."
Christ breathed on only the apostles. Again, in this action he shows that he was speaking only to them, and that this power is only meant for them and their ministerial priesthood, not the priesthood of all believers.

"Interpretation that has to be done through the Holy Spirit and independent from what any denomination teaches"

All churches claim to be under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and yet in the United States we have thousands of independent denominations that disagree on even the most basic christian doctrines like the Trinity and Christ's nature. How can this be reconciled with the idea that the Holy Spirit cannot contradict himself, since he is God?

[This message has been edited by JMJAg10 (edited 2/27/2009 1:27p).]