The Iliad (first read through)

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dds08
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8:55p, 4/17/18
AG
So I picked up the book a day or so ago.

Here are some of my own thoughts after reading Book I:

1. Both Achilles and Agamemnon had serious pride/honor issues
  • They fought over Bresies
  • Why fight over one woman when there is a good chance more spoils of war will come.
  • Just let the women go. It isn't worth fighting over them or being stubborn over them at the cost of the war.
2. How was Chrysis not killed in the raid in the first place? How is it that he was allowed to live to even try to buy back his daughter?

3. The gods taking sides seem appalling.
  • Apollos doesn't like how Agamemnon refuses to return Chryses and sends a plague. Is this seriously how it works? The soldiers that suffered didn't even know it was Agamemnon's refusal that was the cause of the plague. Why should the whole army suffer for one man's folly (which was hardly folly at all IMO, Someone should have protected the priests)?
  • Achilles prize, Bresies was taken from him, so now he prays to the Gods in hopes they fall out of favor with his own countrymen; that helped win over the war spoils (women) in the first place? (Honor and reputation aside this is just plain dumb and disloyal.)
  • Any god who supported the Trojans was okay with a married woman breaking marriage vows and running away with another man in a sense? It doesn't add up.
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OldArmy71
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9:04p, 4/17/18
AG
As one of my wife's 9th grade students once asked her, "If the Greeks had all these gods, where are they today?"
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Definitely Not A Cop
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In reply to dds08 • 9:16p, 4/17/18
AG
dds08 said:
So I picked up the book a day or so ago.

Here are some of my own thoughts after reading Book I:

1. Both Achilles and Agamemnon had serious pride/honor issues
  • They fought over Bresies
  • Why fight over one woman when there is a good chance more spoils of war will come.
  • Just let the women go. It isn't worth fighting over them or being stubborn over them at the cost of the war.
2. How was Chrysis not killed in the raid in the first place? How is it that he was allowed to live to even try to buy back his daughter?

3. The gods taking sides seem appalling.
  • Apollos doesn't like how Agamemnon refuses to return Chryses and sends a plague. Is this seriously how it works? The soldiers that suffered didn't even know it was Agamemnon's refusal that was the cause of the plague. Why should the whole army suffer for one man's folly (which was hardly folly at all IMO, Someone should have protected the priests)?
  • Achilles prize, Bresies was taken from him, so now he prays to the Gods in hopes they fall out of favor with his own countrymen; that helped win over the war spoils (women) in the first place? (Honor and reputation aside this is just plain dumb and disloyal.)
  • Any God who supported the Trojans was okay with a married woman breaking marriage vows and running away with another man in a sense? It doesn't add up.


Just proof that the entertainment industry has always sucked at being creative.
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$240 Worth of Pudding
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In reply to OldArmy71 • 9:43p, 4/17/18
AG
OldArmy71 said:
As one of my wife's 9th grade students once asked her, "If the Greeks had all these gods, where are they today?"

Same place his god is, but I digress.
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dds08
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9:44p, 4/17/18
AG
Although I don't recognize Greek gods; I sure do respect the god that encouraged Achilles to sheath his sword in front of Agamemnon. That could have easily gotten ugly. I doubt any of the guards stood much of a chance against Achilles. It shows restraint and respect for authority.

Great job Achilles parents did at teaching him to follow the kings and rulers. What kind of "Hero" goes against his own superiors? Then again, they were fighting for a questionable cause (Menelaus lost his wife and now we need another war. Great)
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Ulrich
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9:45p, 4/17/18
All those things, the pride and folly, are part of the point. If you treat ancient epic poetry like a straight history book it's not going to make much sense. The were multipurpose works: entertainment, morality lessons, even instruments to teach things like navigation and manners.
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dds08
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In reply to OldArmy71 • 9:50p, 4/17/18
AG
OldArmy71 said:
As one of my wife's 9th grade students once asked her, "If the Greeks had all these gods, where are they today?"
You see hints of them here and there if you know what to look for.

Goodyear tires and lettermen jackets of high school track stars have the winged heel, Apollos.

Astrology

The movies:

Hercules
Immortals

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Definitely Not A Cop
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9:56p, 4/17/18
AG
What are comic book hero's, but modern day Greek Gods? Mythical beings with powers that humans have dedicated tons books, buildings, movies, and songs dedicated to them.
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rhutton125
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7:35a, 4/18/18
AG
The pettiness of the gods was pretty well documented in other Greek texts and plays and things. Zeus always sleeping around, Hera hating Hercules because he was one of Zeus's children, things like that.

I don't recall the reasons for the gods being split on Troy but I'm sure some of it was as little as ___ never liked ___. And I don't think they cared all that much about the consequences or collateral damage, in a way.
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Sapper Redux
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7:47a, 4/18/18
Definitely don't try to understand the motivations of these characters in modern terms. Their definition of honor is REALLY different than ours. And while we view justice and punishment as operating on an individual level, for the ancient Greeks, it was often a collective matter. The soldiers are punished because their leaders are asses to the gods. It's actually not all that different from the plague of the firstborn in Exodus.

As for the gods, the Greek view of theodicy is, "bad things happen because the gods are complete *******s who just happen to be all powerful." And why are the gods split? That happens all the time. The gods have their favorites based on who worships them best, etc. Homer definitely wants you to root against Troy, however. Two of the main gods supporting the Trojans are Ares and Aphrodite. Those are considered two of the lowest, most dishonorable gods.
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wangus12
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 8:21a, 4/18/18
AG
War & Tits. Sounds like I'm rooting for Troy
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to wangus12 • 8:32a, 4/18/18
wangus12 said:
War & Tits. Sounds like I'm rooting for Troy


I always found myself rooting for Troy. I liked Odysseus, but otherwise the Greeks seemed like a bunch of preening dicks and Hektor felt like the most relatable, decent guy out of everyone.
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BQ78
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In reply to dds08 • 9:07a, 4/18/18
AG
Quote:
What kind of "Hero" goes against his own superiors?


Dietrich Von Saucken is holding for you on line 1.
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Bismarck
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 11:55a, 4/18/18
AG
Dr. Watson said:
wangus12 said:
War & Tits. Sounds like I'm rooting for Troy


I always found myself rooting for Troy. I liked Odysseus, but otherwise the Greeks seemed like a bunch of preening dicks and Hektor felt like the most relatable, decent guy out of everyone.
I completely agree about Hector. Throw Paris and Helen to the Greeks and move on.

One thing to keep in mind is that the poem isn't meant to be literal. If Helen was really taken to Troy, that was likely used as a pretext for sacking a rival city-state. Homer is explaining a conflict that occurred well before his time.
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Bruce Almighty
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12:28p, 4/18/18
AG
I remember asking my English teacher while reading The Odyssey if all the ancient Greeks were in Hell because they didn't believe in Jesus.
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Damien Thorn
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In reply to Bruce Almighty • 2:24p, 4/18/18
Bruce Almighty said:
I remember asking my English teacher while reading The Odyssey if all the ancient Greeks were in Hell because they didn't believe in Jesus.
They were a bit surprised when they got there for sure.
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dds08
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7:52p, 4/18/18
AG
Talk about patience.

Achilles didn't even give the Achaian troops a good chance to get him a replacement war spoil woman after Agamemnon took Briseis away. Instead, he prayed to the "gods" and had them fall out of favor with his own fellow soldiers.

The opportunity costs are too high.

What god is that easily swayed?

If anything had Achilles been more patient, his fellow soldiers might have found him someone prettier and/or of great character.
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dds08
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In reply to Ulrich • 10:17p, 4/18/18
AG
Ulrich said:
All those things, the pride and folly, are part of the point. If you treat ancient epic poetry like a straight history book it's not going to make much sense. The were multipurpose works: entertainment, morality lessons, even instruments to teach things like navigation and manners.
Fair enough.
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Ulrich
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In reply to dds08 • 10:28p, 4/18/18
It's not about the woman, it's about the insult. Whether or not that's logical or moral, Homer is telling you that's what Achilles felt. Achilles was perfectly willing to die for glory and sacrifice everything over a point of honor. He wouldn't have been out of place in ancient Rome, medieval France, or the American west... or even now. Hot tempered pride is alive and well.

As for the gods, maybe you're getting a little wrapped up in how you think about godliness and losing track of how Homer and his peers thought about godliness. You can disagree with his theology, but that's not a particularly relevant critique of the plot/theme.

The experience of the Iliad and Odyssey will be more enjoyable if you immerse yourself in the world Homer creates rather than keeping it at arms length to more easily critique his culture, mythology, and religion.
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BQ78
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In reply to Bruce Almighty • 10:47a, 4/19/18
AG
User's name does not check out.
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dds08
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In reply to Ulrich • 2:34p, 4/20/18
AG
I've only read book one. I have a ton more reading to do.
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redline248
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8:03p, 4/20/18
AG
I remember when Troy came out being disappointed at how few people Achilles killed in that movie.
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Bismarck
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11:19p, 4/20/18
AG
Troy was just plain disappointing.
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Bruce Almighty
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In reply to Bismarck • 11:20p, 4/20/18
AG
Bismarck said:
Troy was just plain disappointing.


The fight between Achilles and Hector was bad ass though.
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