I used to subscribe to the common mantra that "grunge killed hair metal", but I don't see it that way anymore. I recently watched a documentary called "Decline of the West Part II - the Metal Years" filmed in 1988. It became apparent to me that the hair metal movement burned out on its own due to lack of originality and poor quality songwriting.

Basically, you had Motley Crue, Poison and Cinderella followed by a huge wave of crappy copycats.

I now say hair metal just ran its course and grunge coincidentally was the primary alternative left standing. Notice that grunge didn't last very long either.

So, Poison was NOT a crappy copycat itself?

I agree that hair metal was dying on its own accord. And I agree that Grunge did not come along and slay this massive beast. But I think it did give it the final death blow.

If you look, there in the late 80's, there were some new metal bands moving away from the "glam" of the true hair bands. They were still far from grunge, but were definatley somewhat more serious in their lyrical content. Bands like Living Colour and Guns 'n Roses come to mind.

I always thought the late 80s, specifically 1987 was the last hoorah for hair bands (Whitesnake; Girls, Girls, Girls). I credit grunge more for offering me an alternative to whiny college alternative music.

Most specific musical genres die out after a few years (disco, gothic heavy metal from the 70s, grunge, industrial...)

I'm thinking of subscribing just so I can get the new icon deals.

You raise an interesting point. I remember seeing Brett Michaels interviewed on how Poison was dumped by the record label even though they were selling millions of albums because the label was signing grunge bands left and right.

The same thing probably happened earlier in the 80s when other musical acts were dumped for the hair bands you mentioned along with others like Quiet Riot, LA Guns, Slaughter, Skid Row, Dokken, RATT, Warrant, White Lion and Trixter the one-hit wonders.

Personally, I loved the 80s "hair band" stuff especially RATT, Cinderella, Warrant, Dokken, Poison and the Crue.

HTownAg: Thanks for reminding me - I forgot to add RATT to the hair band Olympus. I have to admit that I like alot of that music too (especially Crue), but there was a STEEP dropoff in both originality and talent after the top 4 or 5 hair bands.

Really, who cared about bands like Enuff Znuff, Pretty Boy Floyd, LA Guns, or Faster ***** Cat?

Buck, did you watch that on DVD, I have not been able to find it.

On the Crue, I don't think it gets much better than their first two albums "Too Fast for Love" and "Shout at the Devil".

Come on... no mention of Winger? But it is funny how all of these bands can still tour and make a living out of it. Now they have to group 3 or 4 hair metal bands together for one show, but they are still doing what they love.
All of these concerts are coming through Dallas this summer:
Poison with Vince Neil and Skid Row
Whitesnake with Warrant and Slaughter
Queensryche, Dream Theater and Fates Warning
Enuff Z'Nuff, Faster *****cat, Pretty Boy Floyd and Steven Adler (Former GNR Drummer)

Pvt. Joker: It was actually on TV last Sunday evening on FUSE (the Canadian MTV). I'd love to see the original "Decline of the West" that documented the punk movement in the 70's.

HTownAg: I don't usually think of Skid Row as a true hair band. Did they have the huge hair and makeup, or was it just the fact that they surfaced during the hair era that causes you to group them with the hair bands?




[This message has been edited by Buck Turgidson (edited 7/2/2003 4:07p).]

Plano -

I've seen Poison four straight years at the Woodlands. Great show. I think this lineup pales to those in years past which featured bands like Cinderella, Warrant, Quiet Riot, RATT and Vince Neil.

The Whitesnake, Warrant, Slaughter, Winger tour is NOT coming to the Woodlands...

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Poison with Vince Neil and Skid Row
Whitesnake with Warrant and Slaughter

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Buck -

Both, they did have the huge hair and they did come out during the hair band era and they played the hair band ballads like "I Remember You". They did have some cool harder songs like "Monkey Business" and "Slave to the Grind" and "Youth Gone Wild" and "18 and Life".

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HTownAg: I don't usually think of Skid Row as a true hair band. Did they have the huge hair and makeup, or was it just the fact that they surfaced during the hair era that causes you to group them with the hair bands?

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Another hair band I forgot was Britny Fox! They HAD to have the biggest hair of 'em all! They must have put some kind of wire support structure inside that hair!

I never liked the hair band music. I think what turned me off to it the most was the fact that I used to love Headbanger's Ball on MTV when for the first couple of years or so because they would actually play real heavy metal. Then the hair bands came in (along with Riki Rachtmann) and turned HB into a complete hair band show. You would see the hair band videos during normal MTV time and then again on HB.

I think that Guns-n-Roses and Metallica killed hair metal before grunge came around to clean up the scraps. Those 2 bands set the stage for having commercial success as a rock band without pandering to the hair band formula, and that opened the door for the likes of Alice in Chains and Soundgarden, and later Nirvana and Pearl Jam and the rest of the "grunge" bands.

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Queensryche, Dream Theater and Fates Warning

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These 3 are not hair bands; not even close. Queensrhyche, in their "Rage For Order" days, did dress pretty gay, but their music was not hairband type music.

If you ever feel like catching an hour of hairband videos watch VH1 Classic's Metal Mania. It's a hoot.

I love the "pouty" look of all those guys(?) in Britney Fox

Tell me again how Metallica played a role in killing hair metal? The entire early part of their career they existing alongside all the hair metal, and the Black album didn't come along until grunge was in full gear?

Good call on Britny Fox! Saw them with Kix and Ratt one year.

[This message has been edited by HTownAg (edited 7/3/2003 9:11a).]

Metallica co-existed with the hair metal bands for several years, but was not one of them.

If you wonder how Metallica helped kill hair metal, you must not be old enough to remember the release of the video for "One" in 1988. The success of that song and the album ...And Justice for All was unprecedented for a "speed metal" band, and that along with the success of Appetite for Destruction caused a lot of labels to look for bands that were darker, edgier, and harder than the Britney Foxes and Poisons of the world. If you weren't watching the headbanger's ball, you would have never seen something like "One" on MTV but that video was in regular rotation on MTV and rock radio. Of course, Metallica all but became a hair metal band after that by joining forces with hair band producer Bob Rock and making the more formulaic, radio friendly black album.

I don't think thrash killed hair metal either - as was previously mentioned, thrash coexisted for many years with hair metal.

As far as GNR goes, I don't think of them as hair metal, but they're not thrash. If we're gonna call Skid Row a hair band, then GNR is not much different. Look at the hair on "Welcome to the Jungle". Look at the power ballad "Sweet Child o' Mine". Plus, Sebastian Bach could kick Axl Rose's a$$.

the story goes that Axl's hair in "Welcome to the Jungle" was a bit of a joke

Great discussion here. I'm biased because I agree with everything y'all are saying. Good point about GNR and Metallica killing hair bands.

Where do you think The Cult fits in to the hair band scene?

Have you noticed that the same thing that happened to hair bands is happening to Texas Country? A few good originals followed by countless copycats who all sound the same. I'll be glad when this particular genre is finally as dead as Faster *****cat. Good riddance!

That happens w/ every single genre. Record execs seem to have little creativity. One or 2 bands make it big in a new genre, then the market gets flooded w/ similar sounding, but lower quality acts in an attempt to milk it for all it is worth. I think I first realized this back in the early/mid-90's when I was in high school. This was about the time Boyz II Men hit it big, and I remember working out at the gym, they had TVs everywhere on MTV, and there was video after video of young R&B groups consisting of 4-5 singers.

More recent examples would be:
- The ska influx around '97
- Boy Bands: BSB & N'Suck, then flooded w/ 98 degrees, O-Town, God knows how many more
- Girl singers: Britney and Christina, followed by Mandy Moore, Jessica Simpson and more
- girls who play instruments (minor difference from above): Michelle Branch, Vanessa Carlton, Avril
- Crap-ass modern "punk": Blink 182, Sum 41, New Found Glory, Simple Plan, Good Charlotte

Of course grunge went through the same thing. There were the few good originals (Nirvana, Soundgarden, AIC, Pearl Jam), and then a host of poorer rip-offs (Candlebox, 7 Mary 3). Hair metal and Texas country are nothing unique.

IMO, even though the Cult tried to look like a hair band in some early videos, the music was a bit different. Maybe it's because Astbury idolized Jim Morrison and it came through in the lyrics or because they were British but I never thought of the Cult as a hair band in the mold of Ratt, Poison, Cinderella, Crue, Dokken, etc.

Love this discussion guys!

Yeah, I viewed the Cult as being outside a specific genre. A rock band with some Metal flavor and maybe a little New Wave influence.

The Cult was packaged and marketed like a hair band, but the music was different.

In fact, their music changed pretty dramatically from album to album. They were more new wave & Cure-like on Love, more straight-ahead rock & AC/DC-like on Electric, and a pop-metal/power balladish on Sonic Temple.

Dude, Skid Row kicked some ass, they certainly weren't just "hair metal." Sebastian COULD kick Axl's arse no crap about that. And Poison was/is the equivalent to n'sync or something today, I'm sorry. Just because C.C. gets up there and rolls around and plays screeching harmonics with his whammy bar all night doesn't make it cool. I submit that "Unskinny Bop" will NEVER be cool! To each his own, but they were/are one of the least talented of the era. They wrote songs for bouncy haired chicks who didn't know any better.

I used to play in a metal band, and our bass player was from Philly, and LOVED all that crap, Poison, Warrant, Bon Jovi, Enuff Znuff, etc. Warrant did rock some, I'll give him that. I could never listen to Znuff, Winger, etc. Just couldn't do it. There was basically crap pop metal, and real metal, and a few grey area bands. Maiden, Priest, Ozzy, Old Metallica, Megadeth, and others on one side, and Poison, Ratt (minus Warren Di Martini), etc. on the other. I have to admit I have seen most all of these bands live, and some of them did put on decent live shows. Vince Neil can't sing for crap anymore, though the rest of Crue rocked.

Us And Them - The Pink Floyd Experience
http://www.usandthemband.com

"...'cos life is impossible without a guitar."
-David Gilmour

I know DiMartini is playing with Dio now and played on one Whitesnake tour in the 90s, was it the late Robbin Crosby who was in Ratt with Jake E. Lee in the early days?

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Ratt (minus Warren Di Martini),

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Echoes97: My only point about Poison is that they were a pioneer of hair metal. They had a unique look (excessive glam) and sound (pop with a thin veneer of metal) that was later widely copied. Nobody would call them a real metal band, just one of the original hair bands that everybody copied. Notice that they still have well attended tours at pretty big venues every year while the previously mentioned hair clones are either out of business or struggling at local bars.

The first time I saw Poison I immediately thought they were trying to rip off Motley Crue.

It is my opinion that Motley Crue, Ratt, Bon Jovi, and Def Leppard were the original hair metal bands that every other hair metal band was derived from.

1. Poison didn't have the Satanic bent of early Crue.

2. Def Leppard wasn't a hair band - the were a NWOBHM band that went pop later!

3. However, you might have a point - if you crossed Bon Jovi & Crue you might get an offspring like Poison.

I saw Joe Elliott go ballistic in an interview when the reporter put Def Leppard in the hair band category. He strongly maintains that Leppard was NOT a hair band.

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It is my opinion that Motley Crue, Ratt, Bon Jovi, and Def Leppard were the original hair metal bands that every other hair metal band was derived from.

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I didn't say Poison ripped off early Crue, but they did rip off Theater of Pain Crue. And a cross between Crue and Bon Jovi is exactly how I would characterize Poison, good job!

I also agree that Def Leppard did not start out as a hair band. But if Joe Elliot thinks they never were one then he needs to go back and listen to everything after Pyromania.

I picked Crue, Def Leppard, Ratt, and Bon Jovi because they did the pop metal before it was popular and they are the ones that seemed most often imitated by Poison, Winger, Slaughter, and Warrant, etc... Other bands were around doing the same thing, but were not as often imitated (Van Halen, Quiet Riot, Great White come to mind).

Of course, the whole thing really comes from Kiss and Aerosmith, but I don't think it lost all respectability until Theater of Pain came out and the parade of crap that followed it.