I firmly believe that Robb Stark was not markedly better of a person than Tywin Lannister

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Dumb guy

better/worse is not the difference. Competent/incompetent leader is

Dumb, inexperienced, and arrogant....horrible combination

I firmly believe that Gurney Halleck was way more of a badass than Duncan Idaho.

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I firmly believe that Gurney Halleck was way more of a badass than Duncan Idaho.

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True, plus he played a mean baliset

Robb Stark is a traitor for raising an army against the true king of westeros.

Who is the true king of Westeros?

dead guy

He was an oathbreaker and that cost him his life.

I like to think if Ned waged the war they would have won. Two or three non-Robb children marries a Frey, catelyn doesn't dare defy Ned and set Jaime loose, he doesnt let theon go or lose winterfel, and the boltons wouldn't be so bold.

But the big kicker is he wouldn't declare king of the north, he would have sided with Stannis. And if we're Stannis and Ned versus Lannister and Tyrell, all hail king Stannis.

Gurney.

agree with BoCH

I think he's still a good guy...Father executed and sisters held hostage...who wouldn't want to wreck shop on the people responsible for that?

There really wasn't ever any justification for Robb to declare independently. He should have sided with one of the Baratheons, as BoCH said. His independent declaration doesn't really contribute anything to the well-being of the people of Westeros.

He's leading about as well as you would expect a 17 year old to. OF COURSE he jeopardized his entire campaign for some above average poon.

As a member of nobility, with all the privileges that he grew up with, Robb is unofficially bound to make sacrifices on the behalf of his subjects. That's the only way to keep a system of nobility halfway fair. His marriage and romantic life is one of these sacrifices. Ned did it. Hell, even Robert Baratheon did it (technically) and he's not exactly a shining moral standard.

So really, the Red Wedding is kind of satisfying.

Hell. I never saw anything out of Tywin which suggests that he would make a poor leader of Westeros. Nothing suggests that he would have been inferior to, say, Renly or Stannis. He's not terribly unjust. He's really pretty reasonable and even-minded His only fault is that he's a Lannister homer, just like the rest of his family.

He's a fair sight better than Robb.

I completely agree with Bill. Robb broke his oath, let emotion control himself and as a result lost his life and that of 10,000's of men.

Ok. So Tyrion was the other character that was brought up in the wire thread.

I think Tyrion is the closest thing to a "Good guy" that is still alive (after season 3) He seems to be the only one that holds true to vows he makes (and doesn't make those he knows he won't keep) and he stands up for the weak when he can. I think this is a guy that knows the system is ****ed and he is doing what he can to protect those that he can.

^ But as with all the Lannisters, family does come first. If family came between Tyrion and the just decision, family would win. His priorities are his family first, and then reasonable benevolence after that.

Of course he's a lot better than Robb, in that he's not 17 ****ing years old with an uncontrolled boner.

He's 30 something with a controlled, but very active boner.

I think the Hound is a "good guy", as well.

^ The Hound isn't a bad guy either. He's very reasonable, if a little bit rough around the edges.

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His priorities are his family first, and then reasonable benevolence after that.

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I actually don't think that's true, at all. He rarely if ever shows favoritism towards his family members, and even schemes against them. You can't expect him to just up and kill all of them even if he knows they are in the wrong.

On that note, I think McNulty is a good guy when he isn't ****ing his friends or ****ing his friends over.

[This message has been edited by RolfFromDusseldorf (edited 6/20/2013 3:46p).]

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If family came between Tyrion and the just decision, family would win

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I know this is true but it really just pisses me off. Cercei tried to have him killed, his father strips him of any power, and the rest of the Lannisters and their subjects treat him like dirt. Yet he still would chose them first. Blows my mind.

Robb was an idiot. Like already mentioned, he let the wrong head lead and it cost him his life, his wife's life, his unborn child, his mother, and the rest of his army. It was a dumb choice.

Tyrion is tywin with a conscience

I think it depends on the "justness" of the decision and the family member.

I believe tyrion would have cut off the king's pecker if he had raped the stark girl or hurt the hoar.

But I don't think he would have done anything to Tywin if he had the stark girl killed.

And the hound is another character I would trust around me. I am not saying I would like what he would do just that I trust that he would be predicitable in the situation

If Robb and his bannermen were smarter, they should have just declared independence and started fortifying the North - both against attacks and against a certain season that they are always mentioning is on its way.

Let Stannis, Renly and the Lannisters go ape shat on each other, enjoy the murders from afar and when King's Landing is freezing its balls off, start marching down there to take it all.

Of course, that's having no knowledge of Dany and the dragons or what Euron or the other Ironborn might be up to.

Muck, the problem with just holing up in the North is that they are somewhat dependent on stuff from the south. I imagine that when winter comes and all their crops wither and die, they are going to be pretty darn hungry without crops from the south.

And Joffrey had already demanded that Robb come south and bend the knee, meaning that just staying in the north would have been a fresh invitation to be invaded by the Lannisters and likely have both of the sisters killed (Remember, Robb is constantly mentioning how the Lannisters have his sisters).

Even if he did all that, I don't think it would stop the Redd Wedding or something like it. Roose Bolton always had eyes for a bigger position, and it would still be in his best interest for the line of Starks to die off. Maybe it happens differently, but it seemed like it was inevitable.

[This message has been edited by SuperAg05 (edited 6/20/2013 5:22p).]

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Who is the true king of Westeros?

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Stannis.

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If Robb and his bannermen were smarter, they should have just declared independence and started fortifying the North - both against attacks and against a certain season that they are always mentioning is on its way.

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His revolution started when Ned was captured and was continued in order to save his sisters. If i recall right it wasn't his idea to declare himself king but rather brought about by his bannermen upon hearing about Ned.

The stars had to align for the boltons to pull off this coup. The Starks may be the oldest family in control of a kingdom of westeros. Blood of the first men etc etc. Killing Robb wouldn't end the Starks reign of the north without bran and rickon being awol AND Sansa and arya have to be sidelined as well.

If the boltons helped the Lannisters kill off all the children except Sansa. The north would rally to kill the boltons in the name of their Leige lord. But they had help destroying Starks forces and his most loyal banners forces with relatively few casualties. Exterminating all Starks would probably be the only way the Boltons could do it on their own.

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So really, the Red Wedding is kind of satisfying.

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No, two wrongs don't make a right.

******spoiler, as this might be read by people who haven't read the books. sorry.********************




















I don't think John Snow is dead, so that makes him the "good guy" in my eyes.

[This message has been edited by Aggie94 (edited 6/20/2013 8:07p).]

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So really, the Red Wedding is kind of satisfying.


No, two wrongs don't make a right.

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It doesn't have to be just to be satisfying. Call it more karmic justice or living and dying by the sword that you lived by or making your own bed or getting what's fair.

Medieval style GRRM karma.

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If Robb and his bannermen were smarter, they should have just declared independence and started fortifying the North - both against attacks and against a certain season that they are always mentioning is on its way.


His revolution started when Ned was captured and was continued in order to save his sisters. If i recall right it wasn't his idea to declare himself king but rather brought about by his bannermen upon hearing about Ned.

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Could have gotten as much if not more justice/revenge if he'd sided with one of the the Baratheons.