So, we all as a society discuss what formulates a person in adulthood. We usually agree that it is a combination of biological, family, and external environment. Twins are obviously usual studied. So, I have a case from my childhood of twins that had a unique upbringing and dramatically different outcomes. Curious what this board of misfit toys thinks.

So, twin boys in my hometown. Good family. Parents felt they wanted the twin boys to not always be conjoined. So, at the 5th to 6th grade transition they held one back to repeat 5th grade. So, the twins had the same parents, same schools, same town but were different classes by one year. End result - one went on to become a major financial guy who worked for Goldman Sachs all over the world. The other stayed in the hometown and is still going on a lifelong career as a UPS driver. Pretty drastically different.

Did the classmate peers have that much effect on the twins individually?

ETA: they were identical twins

Don't leave us hanging

YokelRidesAgain said:

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Chicken/egg, right? I'm presuming the one who was held back is the UPS driver?

The possibilities are that he had something (like a learning disability) that the other twin didn't have, which contributed to that decision as well as difficulty with academics in the future.

Alternatively, the stigma of being held back may have caused him to dislike school and became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

(It would be a twist if the guy who got held back turned into the investment banker.)

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Your insight is perfect. I did not divulge which became super successful and which became the UPS driver for a reason as that would taint the views and responses. I'll disclose later. Did the one held back feel second rate. Or did that motivate him to say **** you I'll show everyone.

But, don't downplay or forget some possible simple explanations - not say that is or isn't it but just wanting to add that.

As for some disability the one held back could have had that was not the case. They both did very equally well in all their scholastic endeavors in middle and high school - as well as in all sports they participated.

Jugstore Cowboy said:

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Having Mom & Dad decide that you're the one who's repeating 5th grade and your twin will be the "older brother" from then on is pretty ****ing weird, assuming all else was equal.

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I am in complete agreement with that!!

There were some irish twins a few years older than me in my hometown. I always wondered why the adults would gossip and say "oh you know she's dating one of those black boys" or "he's running around with those brothers these days". I think one of them moved out of state. I ran into the one that stayed in the county about a year ago. He had shaved off all that ginger hair and grew out of those freckles. He looked well, not so irish anymore.

EDIT: To clarify, their last name was Black, but when I was a kid I only knew them by their first names.

Anyway, have you ever taken a personality test, and then take it again a week, month, or year later and get widely different results? It turns out twins are actually different people. Most don't create interior designing reality shows together.

Anchorhold said:

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There were some irish twins a few years older than me in my hometown. I always wondered why the adults would gossip and say "oh you know she's dating one of those black boys" or "he's running around with those brothers these days". I think one of them moved out of state. I ran into the one that stayed in the county about a year ago. He had shaved off all that ginger hair and grew out of those freckles. He looked well, not so irish anymore.

Anyway, have you ever taken a personality test, and then take it again a week, month, or year later and get widely different results? It turns out twins are actually different people. Most don't create interior designing reality shows together.

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Funny story of twins. We were friends with a guy in South Carolina who was in charge of all imports/exports in/out of the US for BMW. His identical twin brother in New Jersey was in charge of all imports/exports in/out of the US for Mercedes. And they were both Italian New Jersey guys.

Which one delivered?

I had aunts that were twins and this also happened to them, one of them ended up a grade ahead of the other. i think it was because one of them was struggling a bit in school, may have had some speech issues.

Both became successful adults in that both had long professional careers, but the twin who was in the grade ahead had a noticeably more successful career. But not so drastically different you could point to their academic history as the differentiator, the most likely explanation is the more successful in school twin was just more talented in areas that lead to professional success. Getting held back did not hugely affect the other twin, she was happy and had a long career in a administrative role. The "ahead twin" was definitely not as fun, personality wise, as the "held back twin". But I think that's just how their personality's were wired, nothing to do with the school situation imo - but who knows.

What is weird to me about them is that both went through a nursing path to get to their career. Both married at age 36 to an immigrant (one from Hungary, one from Korea). Neither had children. One had an apartment in Boston, the other an apartment in NYC (grew up on working farm in upstate NY). Both lived to their mid-80's but had been recently predeceased by their husband.

The "ahead twin" had a domineering, take control, "I know the right answer and don't listen to advice", type personality. The "held back twin" was happy go luck, quick with a smile and a joke. Again, I just think that is hard wired personality but the nature and nurture question is impossible to answer as far as an explanation for ALL of someone's personality and outcomes. Both obviously impact a person, but every person is a little experiment with thousands of variables and endless possible outcomes.

My wife's dad had a twin, I never met the twin because he died in his 50's before I met my wife. But my wife's dad is 5'4", I was told the twin was 6'0" + . The tall twin became a dentist and apparently had issues with the ladies. My FIL was absolutely bat**** crazy always on the move and trying to make money off odd deals and trades (on a small scale). Much of both personalities could be ascribed to their backwoods east Texas type upbringing and I really don't have theories. But what I do believe is that growing up a male and 8 inches shorter than your twin brother must have been pretty brutal and had an impact somehow.

Quote:

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I did not divulge which became super successful and which became the UPS driver for a reason as that would taint the views and responses. I'll disclose later.

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As a parent of twins **** them. How dare you stunt one of your child's growth? It's the antithesis of being a parent. Let your twins grow on their own with guidance of course. I cannot imagine the arrogance of those idiot parents. It's child abuse, plain and simple. The mental anguish fostered on the one that was held back is incalculable.

I would have guessed the one held back was more successful. Boys mature later so that would have meant being more developed resulting in a class leader, athletic opportunities, driving, better grades, etc.

I'm guessing the one held back had other issues than parents simply wanting them to be in different grades.

FIDO*98* said:

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I would have guessed the one held back was more successful. Boys mature later so that would have meant being more developed resulting in a class leader, athletic opportunities, driving, better grades, etc.

I'm guessing the one held back had other issues than parents simply wanting them to be in different grades.

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I could see it either way. He had a massive chip on his shoulder that caused him to want to focus and excel in school and life. Maybe show his parents he is the better brother.

Or he had a massive chip on his shoulder that made him resent his parents and the choice to hold him back. This caused him to not do well in school.

Who knows, maybe the OP will have more insight.

WC87 said:

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As a parent of twins **** them. How dare you stunt one of your child's growth? It's the antithesis of being a parent. Let your twins grow on their own with guidance of course. I cannot imagine the arrogance of those idiot parents. It's child abuse, plain and simple. The mental anguish fostered on the one that was held back is incalculable.

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Read in isolation, the first sentence of your post comes across as incredibly harsh to your children. Fortunately, you included other sentences.

Not sure of the purpose of this thread.

Top UPS drivers make a ton of money (after putting in the time) and they have really really good benefits.

Mega Lops said:

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Not sure of the purpose of this thread.

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Sir, this is the GB - enough said?!?!?

Claude! said:

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Read in isolation, the first sentence of your post comes across as incredibly harsh to your children.

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Have you ever had children? Much less two of them, at the same time?

Little monsters, the lot of them.

YokelRidesAgain said:

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Claude! said:

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Read in isolation, the first sentence of your post comes across as incredibly harsh to your children.

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Have you ever had children? Much less two of them, at the same time?

Little monsters, the lot of them.

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No, but I did spend several years of my life as a child, and I can confirm.

BigPete3281 said:

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It does not matter which twin became successful and which did not, the parents are horrible for introducing such wild variables at that age voluntarily. Like, really really horrible.

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I agree but I wasn't in their shoes. Mayyybbeee, there were other factors inside their family .

Now, everyone focused on who went ahead and who stayed behind. But, I led off with environment and ended with peers. So, one ahead went into finance and lived all over the world. The one held back stayed local and was a UPS driver.

Now, in late HS, they both got girlfriends they later married. The one ahead was with a girl whose parents moved around so she was only in our hometown for her last two years of HS and then they (the twin and the gf) both went off together to a big name school and she also had grand ambition. The one held back was with a local girl whose family lived in our hometown for at least four generations and she didn't want to go to college, no one in her family went to college and she was clear she'd never marry and raise kids anywhere away from her family.

Curious questions - would this same scenario occur if they had not been separated into different years.

And, still knowing both, they both are happy family oriented good men.

Raises lots of questions
- did being held back lower his expectations
- if together would they have applied more peer pressure to each other to excel

Sliding doors of life. Like the time I almost turned down a research project because I was too busy but I felt there was just something about it. Now, because of that it lead to countless follow on projects and I became close friends with a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (he was just a simple Lt. Col at the initial start). I still give him a hard time that no one thought in a million years he'd make even full bird colonel lmfao!. His response is always if I have a desire to disappear (which he could do!!)

Mega Lops said:

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Not sure of the purpose of this thread.

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It's so the OP can brag about working for UPS.

NoahAg said:

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Mega Lops said:

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Not sure of the purpose of this thread.

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It's so the OP can brag about working for UPS.

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Good one. If I did work for UPS it was in the office or a pilot as I've lived in six different countries (the US is the only one of that group of six that was in the Americas, so no Mexico or Canada).

Tecolote said:

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So, we all as a society discuss what formulates a person in adulthood. We usually agree that it is a combination of biological, family, and external environment. Twins are obviously usual studied. So, I have a case from my childhood of twins that had a unique upbringing and dramatically different outcomes. Curious what this board of misfit toys thinks.

So, twin boys in my hometown. Good family. Parents felt they wanted the twin boys to not always be conjoined. So, at the 5th to 6th grade transition they held one back to repeat 5th grade. So, the twins had the same parents, same schools, same town but were different classes by one year. End result - one went on to become a major financial guy who worked for Goldman Sachs all over the world. The other stayed in the hometown and is still going on a lifelong career as a UPS driver. Pretty drastically different.

Did the classmate peers have that much effect on the twins individually?

ETA: they were identical twins

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So many assumptions and unverified facts presented here!

Family secrets could render the whole backstory partially or wholly untrue.

What type of twins were they? Identical or Fraternal or even rare Heteropaternal (different fathers) could mean wild variation in genetic similarity.

The story that "the parents decided" to hold one back sounds like a cover story for "one of our kids is obviously a lot slower than the other" but in order to shield him from stigma/teasing, we're just going to play it off as our choice."

TX AG 88 said:

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Tecolote said:

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So, we all as a society discuss what formulates a person in adulthood. We usually agree that it is a combination of biological, family, and external environment. Twins are obviously usual studied. So, I have a case from my childhood of twins that had a unique upbringing and dramatically different outcomes. Curious what this board of misfit toys thinks.

So, twin boys in my hometown. Good family. Parents felt they wanted the twin boys to not always be conjoined. So, at the 5th to 6th grade transition they held one back to repeat 5th grade. So, the twins had the same parents, same schools, same town but were different classes by one year. End result - one went on to become a major financial guy who worked for Goldman Sachs all over the world. The other stayed in the hometown and is still going on a lifelong career as a UPS driver. Pretty drastically different.

Did the classmate peers have that much effect on the twins individually?

ETA: they were identical twins

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So many assumptions and unverified facts presented here!

Family secrets could render the whole backstory partially or wholly untrue.

What type of twins were they? Identical or Fraternal or even rare Heteropaternal (different fathers) could mean wild variation in genetic similarity.

The story that "the parents decided" to hold one back sounds like a cover story for "one of our kids is obviously a lot slower than the other" but in order to shield him from stigma/teasing, we're just going to play it off as our choice."

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Anything other than identical and then this is just any two random siblings. So, for clarification just for you, they were

How much does it really matter that they are identical?

I guess what I'm asking is, how often do identical twins end up on the same career path? Or in a similar lifestyle that aren't being separated at some point?

I feel we need that info to make a better argument.

Great, thought provoking stuff, OP

I have identical twin daughters that are about to be seventeen. In between kinder and first they got a new principal that called us in and said she would be separating the girls into different classes so they wouldnt be dependent on each other. I argued with her that it wasnt her decision and that i wanted them with the same teacher early in schooling so we could identify if they had different strengths and weaknesses which would be easier to determine in identical environments.

I ended up moving them to a different school as she was of the opinion that she was the one with the doctorate and these decisions were hers.

They do have individual strengths and weaknesses that differ and being able to identify that has helped us guide each girl into a better path for each.

And there is a "head twin", its a real thing.