Well, sort of. I approve of a Weak affirmative action policy. Not the strong affirmative action.

Weak affirmative action - same entry standards for all students / profs, heavier recruiting in minority communities to achieve a more racially balanced university.

Strong affirmative action - lower entry standards for minority students / profs.

This notion all depends on where you set that entry standard. It also creates a problem when say person A is way more qualified for a something than person B, while both meet the minimum standard. Person A is white and person B is a minority. Who do you take?

F affirmative action.

I've worked for everything I've gotten.

It's almost 2004.

I don't owe you sh#t.

That's why I like the military...everyone starts out equal.

Affirmative Action should be an "Opt-In" program for whites. Thus - if you are white and support affirmative action you can "Opt-In" and volunteer to give your seat up to a minority if the opportunity presents itself.

If B.Blouser and others want to voluntarily Opt-In and risk giving up their spot - go ahead. But I for one would not.

you go lobster

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That's why I like the military...everyone starts out equal

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I love in Full Metal Jacket where he says "the military does not discriminate...here, you are all equally worthless."

Affirmative action is good. It helps the curve.

You're not the only white male leaning in that direction. I mentioned that in class today and the responce I got was "it's not my fault blacks and mexicans are too lazy and stupid to get anywhere on there own." I know, the issue is much more complex than that, but if that's the best argument I'm faced with, I should be on the winning side of many "discussions". That comment to me just proves how much AA is needed, especially at TAMU.

i often wish i were black, hispanic, asian, female, anything but a white male

My god, that's about the most ignorant thing I've ever seen posted.

if I could be chosen over someone more qualified than me, Id rather be a minority too

Yeah, that MIGHT happen. But more than likely, you'd get to deal with discrimination on a regular basis and have people constantly thinking you're a moron or whatever other stereotype you'd like to throw in there simply because of your skin color. Whoop!!!!! And if you're one of the smarter people of said minority group, you MIGHT get in over a slightly more qualified white male. Man, that sounds like the life!!!

pull your head out bobcat...the pendulum has moved to the opposite end. I have experienced discrimination in SEVERAL sectors (school, work, athletics) over the past 5 years and it would benefit me to be anything other than a white male at this point

and chances are, if you had been born black, you'd have never been in a position to even have a chance at these work, athletic and school positions.

why would I not have a chance if i were black?

i dunno, if I was black, I could be racist and no one would care, theyd just lack because "im a funny black guy"

I'm sure my inheritance from my grandfather would have been less if he was black. I also bet my parents wouldn't have been able to buy a house right after they got married and had no credit history if they were black.

The percentage of minorities that even have a chance to attend a major university, get a good paying job, etc. are much less than it is for the average white person. Debate why that is, but I don't think its too difficult to believe.

A higher percentage of whites have more resources at their disposal, many of these because of the lifestyles they grew up in. They go to better schools (ones with good teachers, generally less violence so they can concentrate on school) and generally have more money to pay for resources to help them, because of what their parents can afford, etc. Does this mean that all black kids are underprivileged and grow up in poverty, while all whites grow up in the lap of luxury? Of course not. But if you took the average white kid and the average black kid, I'd imagine, almost certainly that the white kid would be going to a better school, he'd have a family that has more money and he'd probably deal far less with discrimination on a daily/regular basis. Does this mean he does not "earn" whatever he works for? No, but he was afforded opportunities and benefits that may very well have never been open to that black kid.

Again, let me be clear, it doesn't mean that whites don't work hard or don't "deserve" what they've gotten. But to deny the fact that the average white kid has a better chance of "succeeding" (however you want to define that) and being in a position to "succeed" is simply ludicrous. To put it as simply as possible, would you trade going to school in a middle class suburb for a life where you go to an inner city school, or a poor rural school where you may never have a chance to take an AP test or be on the debate team because your school can't afford to pay for the team's travel expenses (not to mention worrying about violence in school on a regular basis)?

Having said all this, what does this do for the people who don't fit the "norm" (i.e. white kids who are poor, and black kids who are middle class to rich)? That's something AA or whatever other replacement program needs to take better into consideration. The assumption would still be that blacks have systematically been discriminated against in this country. But don't take it from me. Ask some African Americans and see what they honestly think about discimination in this country.

lechnerd said what I did, only in 1/10th of the space. For those who aren't into the whole brevity thing

Well put. I always wonder if the people who say "racism doesn't exist" would be willing to say that in front of a group of African Americans. Hmmm... I don't think so!

Nice "The Dude" reference.

[This message has been edited by Brian2003 (edited 11/20/2003 11:08p).]

A) High school is free
B) If you work hard in high school, you will get good grades. Grades don't discriminate based on race.
C) If you get good grades you will get accepted to college and/or get a scholarship.
D) If you don't get a scholarship, loans and grants are available to you. I know this from my own personal experience.
E) If one school doesn't accept you, and you have good grades, it is highly likely that another school will.

AA sucks. Discrimination, when it comes to education, can always be overcome with hard work. It's a cop-out for inverse-racism and it represents the opposite of everything Martin Luther King Jr. worked for. He always preached against treatment based on color.

And forget the whole "their race was treated poorly in the past" because that's total bull****. If anyone deserves AA based on past treatment alone, it's the Jews.

Edit: my grammar and spelling are attrocious.

[This message has been edited by ArkAggie02 (edited 11/20/2003 11:21p).]

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I always wonder if the people who say "racism doesn't exist" would be willing to say that in front of a group of African Americans

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I would tell them their own cultural pathologies (illegitimacy, celebration of anti-social behavior, paranoia about racism) are the problem, not discrimination.

There we go with the broad generalizations again! That makes your position so much easier to justify doesn't it?

AA is a slap in the face,for those eligible, who did earn what they've gotten.

what bobcat is saying is that he wants to see more whites in basketball and football.

affirmitive action for whitey!

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C) If you get good grades you will get accepted to college

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But not everyone wants that to apply to Flagship Universities, so they want to get rid of 10% rule.

Good grades at the right schools should get you accepted to a good college.

how about the irish catholics. gangs of newyork was a little extreme, but from what i understand, their situation was just as difficult - oh, im a black jew...

really rono? so am I

What I want to know is how many cities in the US have these horrible "inner city" schools that I hear so much about? What about the Whitey McWhitey rich-boy schools? Also, what percentage of the national enrollment do these schools make up?

It seems to me like this would be a pretty small, insignificant number when compared to the nation as a whole. I see it as "strong examples" - the "fors" want everyone to picture whites going to schools like Highland Park High and the minorities suffering through some Oak Cliff or 5th Ward-type school.

What about your "average American town" school? Ones like Bryan, Navasota, Hempstead, Waller, Caldwell, Lufkin, etc, etc, etc. Do the minorities in these schools really need help getting into college over people like me? Other than maybe some form of financial aid (which is available to almost everyone), I don't see that they do - we were in the same classes, lived in the same neighborhoods, etc.

What would AA do for kids like us? Nothing, except screw over the "majorities" for the simple fact that they're not "minorities." Like b.blauser said - if you feel like something absolutely must be done, why not have groups that travel to those few inner city schools and "recruit." At least that way, we're all on a level playing field and my spot isn't taken by someone less qualified just because they're a minority.

I think lotsa you people just read the thread title & posted WITHOUT reading the body of my original post.

I am NOT for a QUOTA SYSTEM. Weak affirmative action doesn't support that. It supports recruiting more strongly in minority areas in effort to increase APPLICATIONS from them. It DOES NOT favor one race or socioeconomic group over another.

I, as some of you, have been at a disadvantage because of my white male status in landing jobs. I've been told flat out, when pressing for an answer, that the company is only doing affirmative action hiring, and I don't fit that bill. Yes, I too have been a victim of strong AA policies, and I DO NOT support them. It's just discrimination in the other direction.

Would I like to see a more diverse Texas A&M? a more diverse workplace? OF COURSE. But not at the expense of cheating someone out of the opportunity to give it to someone lesser qualified.

Michael Jackson apparently doesn't need AA.

He went from being a Black male to a white freak!

If you want diversity, join the engineering program like me. Plenty of diversity there.

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Good grades at the right schools should get you accepted to a good college

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I'm sorry, but I don't know what you mean you when you say "right schools." Are there wrong schools? I'm pretty sure that if you have a 3.75 at any accredited high school and do decently on a the ACT/SAT, you are going to get accepted to college.

If all high schools are presumably the same because they're free and everyone can go to them, why do people try so hard to get their kids into a suburban area where the schools are good?

Brian,

I don't know of anyone that has said racism doesn't exist, that is an ignorant statement. That doesn't change the Civil Rights Act of '64 though that eliminated overt racism (at least in favor of whites). Racism in terms of people's attitudes and feelings though is virtually impossible to eliminate and it crosses racial boundaries.

The problem with most of the arguments here in favor of AA is they assume that they talk about how the average minority comes from a worse background than the average white person. The problem with that is that there are many minorities that are middle and upper class and many whites that are lower class. If you make evaluations based solely on race then it gives a major advantage to those middle and upper class minorities while working against lower class whites who have a more compelling need for help. The key is to eliminate racial preferences and instead replace them with means testing (and neither should matter when it comes to admissions). Every study done on the affects of AA have shown that the biggest beneficiaries are middle class minorities and not the lower class that the program is supposed to help. For instance, I have a neighbor 2 doors down that is black and has 2 kids. He makes more money than I do and lives in a nicer house than mine. Why exactly should his kids be able to get scholarships and recruitment to Universities when I have family members that live in West Texas that don't make 20% of what he does and are trapped in a terrible school system? Why should the kids in West Texas have to pay their own way to a Community College or trade school while the minority kid in an upper middle class neighborhood gets a free ride to most of the schools in the State even though they have basically the same academic credentials? So that a meaningless statistic about the percentage of minorities at A&M can be slightly higher and make some liberals feel good about themselves? It doesn't make any sense to me.

Another dark side of AA that you don't hear about is the failure rate of minorities at schools that take race into account in admissions. It has nothing to do with race, it is because you are allowing kids that don't have the academics to get into A&M on their own go to Rice or Duke and they are in over their head. Academics are color blind and people should be admitted to schools based on their abilities and not their skin color. Another concern is the percentage of minorities at those schools that do graduate that have degrees in liberal arts. Liberal arts are not a bad thing (I was a POLS major myself) in and of themselves but the problem at those schools is they have designed curriculums with the plight of those weaker academic minorities in mind in such things as African American Studies in order to be able to get them to graduate. Many of these kids could go to a school that their academics would have normally qualified them for and graduated with a much more meaningful degree. That isn't to say there aren't exceptions to the rule because there certainly are, still statistically if you put a kid who was Top 5% of his class with a 1400 SAT up against a kid that was Top 25% with a 1200, the odds are that the first kid is going to do better irregardless of skin color.