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Furthermore, having guns in your vehicle or on your person is not necessarily a crime. Figured the Outdoors board world get that.

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Considering the reports stating that many of the bikers decided to hide their guns in the kitchen, in their food, or try to flush them down the toilet, I'm more than willing to bet many of those firearms were possessed illegally. I mean, if you were a law-abiding CHL holder whom legally owned the firearm, but didn't try to murder somebody that day and didn't fire a shot, then why dump the gun?

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They weren't just gathering with other motorcyclists, they were meeting with known members of organized crime.

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Having lunch with John Gotti, JR is not a crime and does not prove involvement in criminal activity or conspiracy to commit criminal activity.

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When Gotti fires off the St. Valentines day Massacre during said lunch, you will be involved in someway.

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Furthermore, having guns in your vehicle or on your person is not necessarily a crime. Figured the Outdoors board world get that.

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Unless you are committing a crime, or part of a gang...

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Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control.
(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view, unless the person is licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and the handgun is carried in a shoulder or belt holster; or
(2) the person is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic or boating;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.

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71.01(abridged)

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(d) "Criminal street gang" means three or more persons having a common identifying sign or symbol or an identifiable leadership who continuously or regularly associate in the commission of criminal activities

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If you are unaffiliated, do not participate and have no foreknowledge, you did not commit a crime by being present any more than the waitresses and cooks.

Again, they arrested unaffiliated people that were eating Mexican food a hundred yards away that didn't know anyone involved and charged them with murder.

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Furthermore, having guns in your vehicle or on your person is not necessarily a crime. Figured the Outdoors board world get that.

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Considering the reports stating that many of the bikers decided to hide their guns in the kitchen, in their food, or try to flush them down the toilet, I'm more than willing to bet many of those firearms were possessed illegally. I mean, if you were a law-abiding CHL holder whom legally owned the firearm, but didn't try to murder somebody that day and didn't fire a shot, then why dump the gun?

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Cops clearly didn't care if you were there legally and were unaffiliated and didn't care if you had nothing at all to do with the shooting.

While many were obviously criminals, it doesn't mean everyone there was.

Dont expect facts to stand in the way of a good self-righteous rant.

Have we seen all the facts? I mean I could spin a pretty good story if I was dumb and reckless enough to get mixed up in this thing.

They should all get their day in court and they will. But I also live in the real world where I can imagine an event of this magnitude and complexity is going to take some time to grind through.

And I'd point out to those that those preaching about facts that as some of the facts have leaked, they have steadily been toward the LEO side - like the number of firearms when many were incredulous at first about the weapons count. Then the number of bikers killed by other bikers vs LEO as autopsy reports came out. So by all means, lets keep the facts flowing. Give then their day in court and facts.

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Have we seen all the facts? I mean I could spin a pretty good story if I was dumb and reckless enough to get mixed up in this thing.

They should all get their day in court and they will. But I also live in the real world where I can imagine an event of this magnitude and complexity is going to take some time to grind through.

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We're almost a year out and people that had to put up thousands of dollars to get out of jail stalk haven't been indicted or had charges dropped. How long do we have to wait?

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And I'd point out to those that those preaching about facts that as some of the facts have leaked, they have steadily been toward the LEO side - like the number of firearms when many were incredulous at first about the weapons count. Then the number of bikers killed by other bikers vs LEO as autopsy reports came out. So by all means, lets keep the facts flowing. Give then their day in court and facts.

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I don't think there police acted wrong during the shooting, but rather after it. Also there Justice of the Peace that signed the warrants and set the million dollar bail acted wrong. He said he set it that high to send a message. That is a violation of civil rights. Bail can only bet set to ensure appearance in court. Bail can't be punitive, and the Justice said it specifically was.


Many of the facts contradicted police statements, too.

Such as?

http://www.kcentv.com/story/32000688/first-bikers-to-speak-publicly-after-twin-peaks-reflect-on-shootout-one-year-later

First Bikers To Speak Publicly After Twin Peaks Reflect On Shootout One Year Later

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The couple decided to take William's small, fledgling club to Waco for the lunchtime COC meeting and would drive by car because of the possibility of bad weather. Although his motorcycle wasn't at Twin Peaks, William and Morgan were. They didn't arrive on two wheels, but there were still dressed like bikersand their black leather would soon be replaced.

"Let's just say Waco has made us very hesitant about doing things," said William.

The Englishes were two of the nearly 200 bikers arrested after the fatal fight erupted in the restaurant parking lot between the Bandidos and the Cossacks.

"I've never been in trouble a day in my life," said Morgan who works for a bank in Brenham.

William had heard there was tension between the two groups DPS considers "criminal motorcycle gangs" or "outlaw motorcycle gangs" (OMG's).

"Anybody who rides has heard somewhere that somethin's been goin' on there," said William about rumors of a feud.


William said they thought about leaving, but didn't. After walking through a sea of Cossacks on the patio, which Morgan said were being rude to "anyone who wasn't them," the couple and several of their club members went to the front of the restaurant, discussing if they should eat at Twin Peaks before the COC meeting or somewhere else after. They never even put their name in. After about 15 minutes they heard a scuffle in the parking lot and started going towards it but quickly ran to the opposite side of the restaurant when they heard shots. William, a former marine, pinned Morgan to the building to protect her while he listened to hear where the gunfire was coming from.

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When the gunfire ended, the Englishes waited in the parking lot until police came. They said officers lined the bikers up, 15 or so at a time, and searched them for weapons.

"They were searching me in front of all these men, ya know, feeling all around making sure there's nothing on me," said Morgan. "I think the worst thing they found was a hair tie."

Next, the Englishes said their hands were restrained with zip ties, and they were bused to the Waco Convention Center.

"I sat there crying for William," said Morgan who was scared authorities were going to separate her from William. "I was like 'no you are not gonna put me on this bus with people, I have no idea who they are zip tied.'"

They got to stay together for the drive and remained together at the convention center where more than 200 bikers were separated into rooms.

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The couple was separated and booked into two different facilities for crimes they say they knew nothing about. Morgan was so upset when she arrived, her blood pressure was too high for them to book her. She said they had her wait in a holding cell, telling her she needed to "calm down" so she could be healthy enough to go to jail. After several hours, they took her blood pressure again and she went before a judge.

They tell me...you're under a million dollar bond," said Morgan who was shocked by the figure.

While several bikers did come up with $100,000 to post their $1,000,000 bond, most of the bikers could not afford it, and they were forced to stay incarcerated until the bonds were lowered. For William and Morgan, that was two weeks and a day. Their defense attorney, Houston-based Paul Looney, got their bonds reduced to $25,000 (of which they had to pay $2,500 each). Morgan was able to return to her job as a banker, but after two weeks of missing work, William lost his job, and his pension, at a company he'd been working with for nine years.

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They might want to bring up the Baylor rapes the PD and DA tried to cover up.

This should get nasty.

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how was the one million dollar bail amount for nearly 200 individuals proper?

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Never said that it was. But they had no idea who actually killed people and who didn't. How exactly would you have handled it?

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"it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer"

Ben Franklin, echoing and enhancing Blackstone's principal from English common law.

not that the views of founders cut much ice in our justice system anymore...but IMO this principal provides a guide on how such matters should be handled in a free society.

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how was the one million dollar bail amount for nearly 200 individuals proper?

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Never said that it was. But they had no idea who actually killed people and who didn't. How exactly would you have handled it?

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I'm fairly certain rounding up everyone that could possibly be involved in a crime and punishing them with excessive bail to "send a message" is exactly what Stalin would have wanted in the absence of mass executions and/or deportation to Siberia.

Could you imagine that if a Crips member gets gunned down, so police go arrest everyone wearing Bloods red because some of them are probably involved?

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Investigated and charged people with crimes they actually committed?

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I believe that's what they're doing -- or what they're trying to do.

I asked for specifics: who exactly would you have arrested and who would you have let go free? What would you have based that on? Exactly how much would you have set for bail on each person? What specific charges would you have made and against who? Please answer these questions before you try to refute other points because they are very important to this discussion.

You are talking in generalities essentially arguing that since there MAY be some injustice against one or more individuals, ALL are being unjustly prosecuted. There were, what, 9 people killed? And we know that most of them were not killed by police, right? I'm not saying the police here have done everything perfectly -- that's absurd. But you and others are *****ing about every little thing they did do and I want to know SPECIFICALLY how you would have handled things better. Saying "I would have only arrested the right people..." is stupid. They believe they did and you thinking otherwise isn't actual proof they're wrong. Saying they should have done things different is fine -- but it begs the questions I asked above.

Look, you guys are making this sound like cops had nothing better to do one night and busted down the door of some innocent homeowner, charged him with some trumped up crime, locked him up and now no one knows where he is or when his court date is. In fact, we have a group of individuals who, for whatever reason, dressed up in a similar fashion that outlaw gangs have been doing for decades and attended an event where they knew or should have known trouble would break out. Serious trouble DID break out and people were killed. I'm not saying that means everyone there was particularly guilty of a crime, but it IS, like it or not, reasonable to assume that many are and getting the facts when some people aren't talking and others might not be telling the truth is going to take time and effort. Its also going to involve mistakes. If you've never made any mistakes in your profession then I suggest you go apply to be the Waco PD chief (or head of whoever is leading the investigation) and see if you can continue that perfect record. Just keep in mind that others will criticize you as much as you've criticized those in charge here. How do you handle unfounded criticism?

Also, just because Franklin and others (including myself) think that guilty should go free BEFORE innocents go to jail doesn't mean we just let everyone off. I really do not understand what those most vocal on here (in the corner of the bikers) want law enforcement to do. Anything they do WILL bring criticism from someone.

Lots of words

They arrested a guy at the Mexican restraunt next door
Completely out of control arrests and bail

Haven't looked through this thread in awhile, but the couple from Smithville or Bastrop or wherever it was that had taken a ride on their bike and stopped in Twin Peaks or the Mexican restaurant for lunch, they got arrested and couldn't make bail.

The woman had a very understanding employer. Still had a job waiting. The man was close to retirement but his company finally gave up on waiting for him. He lost his job and his pension.

Law enforcement and the judicial system in that city and county are an embarrassment.

FNG said:

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Haven't looked through this thread in awhile, but the couple from Smithville or Bastrop or wherever it was that had taken a ride on their bike and stopped in Twin Peaks or the Mexican restaurant for lunch, they got arrested and couldn't make bail.

The woman had a very understanding employer. Still had a job waiting. The man was close to retirement but his company finally gave up on waiting for him. He lost his job and his pension.

Law enforcement and the judicial system in that city and county are an embarrassment.

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IMO, prudent person would have entered that restaurant and walked right back out again.

dubi said:

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FNG said:

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Haven't looked through this thread in awhile, but the couple from Smithville or Bastrop or wherever it was that had taken a ride on their bike and stopped in Twin Peaks or the Mexican restaurant for lunch, they got arrested and couldn't make bail.

The woman had a very understanding employer. Still had a job waiting. The man was close to retirement but his company finally gave up on waiting for him. He lost his job and his pension.

Law enforcement and the judicial system in that city and county are an embarrassment.

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IMO, prudent person would have entered that restaurant and walked right back out again.

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I've been to Sturgis. Is that imprudent?

dubi said:

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FNG said:

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Haven't looked through this thread in awhile, but the couple from Smithville or Bastrop or wherever it was that had taken a ride on their bike and stopped in Twin Peaks or the Mexican restaurant for lunch, they got arrested and couldn't make bail.

The woman had a very understanding employer. Still had a job waiting. The man was close to retirement but his company finally gave up on waiting for him. He lost his job and his pension.

Law enforcement and the judicial system in that city and county are an embarrassment.

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IMO, prudent person would have entered that restaurant and walked right back out again.

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Holy geez......this post.....

1) To quote Elmore Leonard, "Outlaw life is hard."

This will be a very large felony murder case, and a chance to break the backs of some criminal organizations and their front.

2) I'm sure there were some "wrong place wrong time" folks at the initial arrest.

I'm also sure some of the folks claiming that, and still being held, were actually minirly connected to the criminal organizations - and they'll have to face the penalty of associating with sex-traffickers, drug-dealers, and killers.

Bradley.Kohr.II said:

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1) To quote Elmore Leonard, "Outlaw life is hard."

This will be a very large felony murder case, and a chance to break the backs of some criminal organizations and their front.

2) I'm sure there were some "wrong place wrong time" folks at the initial arrest.

I'm also sure some of the folks claiming that, and still being held, were actually minirly connected to the criminal organizations - and they'll have to face the penalty of associating with sex-traffickers, drug-dealers, and killers.

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Where is the law that that describes the penalty for associating with them? Criminal code? Civil? Fines?

Or are they breaking the law because they live differently, and look different than the wacko PD? Huge abuse of power and they are getting away with it. Many of us don't care care to live in a police state where some cowboy gets to tell us who to associate with and where we can do it.

Bradley.Kohr.II said:

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1) To quote Elmore Leonard, "Outlaw life is hard."

This will be a very large felony murder case, and a chance to break the backs of some criminal organizations and their front.

2) I'm sure there were some "wrong place wrong time" folks at the initial arrest.

I'm also sure some of the folks claiming that, and still being held, were actually minirly connected to the criminal organizations - and they'll have to face the penalty of associating with sex-traffickers, drug-dealers, and killers.

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Yeah, f*** the Constitution! If you're "associating" with bad hombres, you get what you deserve.

The fact that half the people in this thread are die hard Second Amendment supporters but refuse to even countenance the idea that the Constitution should apply to everyone - even those people you find undesireable - is completely disgusting. And telling.

FNG said:

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Haven't looked through this thread in awhile, but the couple from Smithville or Bastrop or wherever it was that had taken a ride on their bike and stopped in Twin Peaks or the Mexican restaurant for lunch, they got arrested and couldn't make bail.

The woman had a very understanding employer. Still had a job waiting. The man was close to retirement but his company finally gave up on waiting for him. He lost his job and his pension.

Law enforcement and the judicial system in that city and county are an embarrassment.

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Not to mention Waco PD's activity in covering up rapes committed by Baylor football players.

Any time anybody's constitutional rights have been overlooked, or worse, trampled...it should be a time for house cleaning in the jurisdiction where it happens...there is never a justification for it, and any party who is privy to or participates in the denial of God given civil liberties should be at the least fired, if not criminally charged themselves.

The down-the-line ramifications of having your liberties and rights ignored all for some murky interpretation of the greater good can be life ruining. As said earlier, it is better that 100 guilty men go free than one innocent person suffer. If you cannot understand this you have absolutely, positively no place in a free society.