And it's creepy how William looks like he's in a coffin.

I noticed this too.

It's two timelines, William as the MiB, the MIB as the major shareholder/ board member, probably Ford as a host.

Can't say that I love all of that, or that they can make all of the details line up. But it's still an awesome show.

AgLiving06 said:

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I think they can use the two timelines to get everyone up to speed, but I don't think they keep it up the entire series.

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I've never expected the two timelines approach, if true, to continue past this season. It'll have served its purpose by season's end, and I doubt they'll continue showing young William back in the real world or coming back to the park. My bet is that it becomes a single, current timeline going into season two.

Probably some kind of allusion to William not yet being "alive," being (re)"born" in the park (as the MiB says), etc.

Not to get super spoilerish, but how long has Hopkins signed on for? He's pretty old after all. But with the setup in season one, it's kind of hard to imagine the park without him...

Something else about the current best theory.

If whatever MIB/William did with Delores in the barn in ep1 was meant to send her back down the off loop path she went down 30 years ago (and a actually think that's a good explanation for her flashbacks) , what is the purpose of Bernard?

In other words, who in the present is leading her to the maze?

I think her own "subconscious" is leading here there. Now whether that subconscious is "Arnold" or whatever I dunno.

Bernard, at this point, is a confusing character no doubt, but I think he's more interested in creating an true artificial intelligence and he believes Dolores is one so he's trying to figure out how/why/etc.

Maybe MiB replayed the fortune teller bit in the barn.

If that is William in a coffin there are a hundred scenarios that could take him to that point and still be alive.

They are in a train car full of coffins and nitro filled robot corpseses.

PooDoo said:

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Maybe MiB replayed the fortune teller bit in the barn.

If that is William in a coffin there are a hundred scenarios that could take him to that point and still be alive.

They are in a train car full of coffins and nitro filled robot corpseses.

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That pic is from the very first time we see William. It's a reflection of him sleeping in the train that brings him and Logan to the park.

We haven't talked about that much, but nitro-filled corpses is an interesting plot point from a mechanics standpoint.

There's absolutely no way that there's actually nitro-filled bodies riding around on trains in the park.

Does central command have the power to render whatever the chemical actually is useless? We saw them have to give permission for even a small explosion to the MiB. So if Dolores would have shot the body, would anything have actually happened? Definitely no right?

Just an interesting point, kind of like William pointing out last week that the park gives you a "sense of danger" or whatever exactly he said.

Still not buying the 2 timeline theory. They demonstrate no difference between hosts of supposed 30 years prior to present day despite there being multiple mentions of how they were much less life-like previously? Present day security notices Delores is off track and send someone after her while she's with Logan and William? There is yet to be any hard evidence for the theory, only circumstantial (L&W are part of some organization looking to fund the park, MIB has a foundation and he previously helped the park, a nonspecific conversation between L&W regarding the parks finances, vague conversation between Ford and MIB, Lawrence dying with the MIB and returning to interact with L&W). Its impossible to completely rule it out, but it would be unfairly deceptive for the writers to create 2 separate timelines given what we have already seen, and would be a significant let down for that to be the case.

With the two timelines being so likely, I still think it's quite possible that Bernard's scenes are not all in the "present" as well. If we assume that Bernard is indeed a host, his encounters with Dolores in that room might be from years ago. Even as far back as the period before she even met William. I know Bernard has stated that he's only been there for a little over 10 years, however, if he is a host, that could be just part of his loop and story. Bernard's character is very interesting to me and I think could have a lot of possibilities on how it plays out even to the point of him potentially being a recreated Arnold. Something that will surely come into play, is what he whispers to Mr. Abernathy as he's locking him up in storage back in the first episode. We don't know what he says to him, but it can be guaranteed that it'll come back into play as we begin to discover his true motives.

AliasMan02 said:

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The more I think about it, the more I think the interview room where we see Bernard and Ford talk to Delores is digital. One of the butchers talked about VR during his break, so we know that's a thing. It also kinda lines up with the concept that "this is a dream." It solves some logistical problems as well.

Does anyone who is being physically examined do the "this is a dream" exchange? Maybe Delores in the first episode when talking to Stubbs with others in the room?

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This definitely makes sense. They're robots, so they could definitely just be sending them into a virtual reality that they would have no way of differentiating from the "real" world. My question is, how does it look to the interviewers, provided they're human.

TCTTS said:

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Your two main issues have already been addressed previously in this thread, and I honestly don't think either are a big deal.

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It's been addressed rather poorly. "Security are all hosts" and "maybe they advanced a ton in the first couple years and have not since" are pretty poor explanations. The reason I have issues with them is you have to create more theories, again without significant evidence, in order to explain a theory that is already lacking hard evidence. Again, it's all possible, but I would be disappointed as it would be unnecessarily misleading when the story does not really require misleading timelines in order to remain captivating.

Why don't they build a few robots that can repair the refrigeration level?

Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag said:

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Still not buying the 2 timeline theory. They demonstrate no difference between hosts of supposed 30 years prior to present day despite there being multiple mentions of how they were much less life-like previously? Present day security notices Delores is off track and send someone after her while she's with Logan and William? There is yet to be any hard evidence for the theory, only circumstantial (L&W are part of some organization looking to fund the park, MIB has a foundation and he previously helped the park, a nonspecific conversation between L&W regarding the parks finances, vague conversation between Ford and MIB, Lawrence dying with the MIB and returning to interact with L&W). Its impossible to completely rule it out, but it would be unfairly deceptive for the writers to create 2 separate timelines given what we have already seen, and would be a significant let down for that to be the case.

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I'm with you. There could be two timelines but I don't think they are 30 years separated. If William is around at the start of the park, that is really going to irritate me as it is sloppy story telling.

Hosts started out very mechanical, like we saw them in flashbacks and see with Bill the bartender. They work on them for a few years before the park opens, and they get continually improved.

After a few years of ooeration, up to when MiB/William first arrive at the park, the hosts are still mechanical but very lifelike. A million perfect pieces. They are insanely expensive and the park is losing money. Logan is an exec at Delos and sent to look into investing. They (probably William after he takes over for Logan) buy in, providing the tech to create biological hosts, which is much more cost effective.

By the time we catch up with the MiB, hosts have been all biological for a generation.

AliasMan02 said:

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Hosts started out very mechanical, like we saw them in flashbacks and see with Bill the bartender. They work on them for a few years before the park opens, and they get continually improved.

After a few years of ooeration, up to when MiB/William first arrive at the park, the hosts are still mechanical but very lifelike. A million perfect pieces. They are insanely expensive and the park is losing money. Logan is an exec at Delos and sent to look into investing. They (probably William after he takes over for Logan) buy in, providing the tech to create biological hosts, which is much more cost effective.

By the time we catch up with the MiB, hosts have been all biological for a generation.

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Yeah but that's not what the show has told you. Incremental improvement. Minor updates that over time has evolved them.

Look at Sizemore's conversation with Theresa. He says, "Do we really want realistic hosts? Is that what our guests want? You used to be able to tell the difference." You get the impression that for a while, the hosts were not that human.

Look at the discussion between Bernard and Elsie regarding reveries. They're stressing the gradual evolution of the hosts. It isn't just the way they look either, it's the way they interact with humans. William can't tell even tell that Delores isn't human - he has fallen for as if she is human. And they way she treats him is totally different. Not just biology, personality. Look at the way Old Bill interacts with Ford. I love his scenes because the dialogue is just so good. There is never any doubt that you are talking to a host. He hears Ford's story but his response is just so canned, it misses all of the nuance you'd expect. And then, as they gradually work on the hosts, that changes.

The only way the timeline theory works with everything they've shown us so far is if William and Logan are in the same time frame as Bernard, Elsie, etc. But Bernard, Elsie, et al. are around significantly past the park opening. So it just doesn't make sense.

And again, a major theme of the show so far has been the point at which the creation develops a level of sentience that they have intrinsic value, so to speak. If there is a 30 year gap between the MIB and William, that whole theme is pointless.

If that's the direction they go, the show screwed up the way it treated William's interactions with Delores completely. It is inconsistent with what we've seen from Sizemore, Bernard, and basically everyone at corporate.

Quote:

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Look at Sizemore's conversation with Theresa. He says, "Do we really want realistic hosts? Is that what our guests want? You used to be able to tell the difference." You get the impression that for a while, the hosts were not that human.

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"You get the impression..." - except that I really don't. Your "evidence" is just as circumstantial as everyone else's on the other side of the argument. There's no definitive proof that Old Bill was actually part of the park. Ford simply says he was the second host they ever built. That doesn't mean he ever interacted with guests. And the gradual evolution of reveries doesn't mean that the hosts gradually went from robotic movements to smooth, human-like movements over years and years. The reveries they're referencing are just tiny ticks here and there that help sell the illusion better and better, an illusion that was already selling itself quite well 30 years ago. Honestly, Alias' points come across as very sound, and make perfect sense.

TCTTS said:

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Quote:

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Look at Sizemore's conversation with Theresa. He says, "Do we really want realistic hosts? Is that what our guests want? You used to be able to tell the difference." You get the impression that for a while, the hosts were not that human.

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"You get the impression..." - except that I really don't. Your "evidence" is just as circumstantial as everyone else's on the other side of the argument. There's no definitive proof that Old Bill was actually part of the park. Ford simply says he was the second host they ever built. That doesn't mean he ever interacted with guests. And the gradual evolution of reveries doesn't mean that the hosts gradually went from robotic movements to smooth, human-like movements. The reveries they're referencing are just tiny ticks here and there that help sell the illusion better and better, an illusion that was already selling itself quite well 30 years ago. Honestly, Alias' points come across as very sound, and make perfect sense.

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I guess we just agree to disagree. Sizemore's conversation, to me, makes absolutely no sense if the hosts have been human-like for 30 plus years. Why would he just now be voicing the concern that the hosts are indistinguishable from humans if they had been that way for 30 years?

The reveries themselves indicate the slow, continuous incremental improvements that the hosts have seen where every new update makes them closer and closer to humans.

Then, you look at the timing of the two conversations comma and it shows the different perspectives of Behavioral and corporate on the updates. Behavioral Marvels at the technical feat, and corporate wonders if this is really going to make them more money.

If 30 years ago they were 97% of the way there already, this conversation and approach makes no sense to me.

And although no one has addressed it, the theme of the show makes less sense if they got 97% of the way there 30 years ago. You would think one big jump going from not human at all to almost totally human would be such a system shock, people would reject it. But the slow, incremental improvements people hardly notice until you look up and say holy crap, these hosts are self aware. That just seems so much more aligned with the theme of the show.

I am not sure why you are hung up on 30 years ago being the beginning. Here is what we know about the timeline of the park's existence:

- Arnold and Ford worked 3-4 years unmolested on nothing but "creation" prior to the park opening.
- It took one year of development to pass the Turing test.
- Old Bill is the second host ever created.
- Dolores is 34 years old and the oldest host "in the park".
- The "last critical code failure" was 30 years ago.
- The MiB has been coming to the park for 30 years.

These are literally the only concrete time references we have. None indicate when the park opened or the timing and speed of the hosts' physical evolution. All we know is the last failure occurred around when the MiB started coming to the park and Dolores was around at the time as well. For all we know the park could have been open for 10 years before the last incident.

My wife and I just finished rewatching the season and there is nothing to discredit the two timeline theory. Everything that has happened so far falls right into place.

Except we know Arnold died right before the park opened, and he died 34 years, 7 months, etc... ago.

If Delores is the first host, and she last saw Arnold 34 years ago on the day of his death, and we know Arnold and Ford worked several years unmolested in pure creation, then Delores is older than 34 years.

AliasMan02 said:

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Except we know Arnold died right before the park opened, and he died 34 years, 7 months, etc... ago.

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So there was 7-9 years of development that happened prior to the MiB ever setting foot in the park. There is no reason to think the hosts were not lifelike at that point. They were just mechanical rather than biological.

MW03 said:

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If Delores is the first host, and she last saw Arnold 34 years ago on the day of his death, and we know Arnold and Ford worked several years unmolested in pure creation, then Delores is older than 34 years.

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She is not the first host.

Also, did the board lady say bits been 30 years since the last critical failure or incident or something? Does that mean the hosts did some 4 years after Arnold's death, or do we think she was approximating?

Well regardless, unless she was built the very day Arnold died, then she's older than 34.

Belton Ag said:

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dlance said:

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My wife and I just finished rewatching the season and there is nothing to discredit the two timeline theory. Everything that has happened so far falls right into place.

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Needed someone smarter than you to help figure it out, huh?

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I've never thought it wasn't the case (two timelines or my wife being smarter than I). The William/Logan timeline is the backstory of how the MiB came to be.

MW03 said:

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Well regardless, unless she was built the very day Arnold died, then she's older than 34.

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Dammit I'm going to lose my mind. I swear someone in the show said she was built 34 years ago also.