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You aren't thinking in terms of principle.

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Principle is nice. Here's mine: equality of opportunity. You're claiming there is currently equality of opportunity for someone born into a nice suburb to middle class white parents vs a black child born in an urban ghetto. Anyone with functioning brain cells knows that's bs.

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Equality of opportunity is a good principle and here is where your mistake is: confusing economic freedom/opportunity and political freedom/opportunity. The one implied in yours statement is economic, and only ends up in the redistribution of wealth. Real equality of opportunity is political in nature...one of freedom from other men to go out and make a living, having a right to the product of one's own labor. And political equality is the ONLY one worth desiring or fighting for.

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White guilt these days? It's floating around everywhere.. Social media has become an anti-white propaganda ****hole. Far Left SJW cucks everywhere.

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I'm not guilty of a damned thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And sure as hell feel no guilt what so ever!! Why should ???!!!

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What is Sapper doing about all this injustice for black people wasting all his time posting on Texags.

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I was just thinking Dr. Watson was a dead ringer for that guy. His views on the intrinsic inheritable evil of ill-begotten wealth was fascinating to dig into.

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When did I say wealth was evil?

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You aren't thinking in terms of principle.

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Principle is nice. Here's mine: equality of opportunity. You're claiming there is currently equality of opportunity for someone born into a nice suburb to middle class white parents vs a black child born in an urban ghetto. Anyone with functioning brain cells knows that's bs.

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the United States military is ample opportunity for any individual born into any situation in life. Join up, work 20 years and have retirement and healthcare for life. This isn't rocket science. Stop making excuses.

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Unless you have a medical condition. Or the quota is met. Or you don't want to serve in the military for whatever reason. The military isn't 50 million people.

And you're basically saying poor people need to put their lives on the line just to have a chance at a middle class life.

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what percentage of those employed by the US military see combat duty? Yet another red-herring.

Not wanting to serve when your financial situation and future prospects are dismal is the definition of lazy. The opportunity is right there.

Medical condition? The ADA ensures these people can find gainful employment. Wasn't the conversation about socioeconomical situation to begin with?

Staff,

Can you provide a SJW/White Guilt board for these sorts of discussions?

TIA

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What is Sapper doing about all this injustice for black people wasting all his time posting on Texags.

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I was just thinking Dr. Watson was a dead ringer for that guy. His views on the intrinsic inheritable evil of ill-begotten wealth was fascinating to dig into.

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When did I say wealth was evil?

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If you are SapperAg, we had an exchange in 2015 (IIRC) where this was the main thrust of your argument.

If not, then carry on.

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What is Sapper doing about all this injustice for black people wasting all his time posting on Texags.

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I was just thinking Dr. Watson was a dead ringer for that guy. His views on the intrinsic inheritable evil of ill-begotten wealth was fascinating to dig into.

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When did I say wealth was evil?

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If you are SapperAg, we had an exchange in 2015 (IIRC) where this was the main thrust of your argument.

If not, then carry on.

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I've never argued that wealth is evil. That doesn't mean there aren't issues to discuss.

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You aren't thinking in terms of principle.

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Principle is nice. Here's mine: equality of opportunity. You're claiming there is currently equality of opportunity for someone born into a nice suburb to middle class white parents vs a black child born in an urban ghetto. Anyone with functioning brain cells knows that's bs.

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the United States military is ample opportunity for any individual born into any situation in life. Join up, work 20 years and have retirement and healthcare for life. This isn't rocket science. Stop making excuses.

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Unless you have a medical condition. Or the quota is met. Or you don't want to serve in the military for whatever reason. The military isn't 50 million people.

And you're basically saying poor people need to put their lives on the line just to have a chance at a middle class life.

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what percentage of those employed by the US military see combat duty? Yet another red-herring.

Not wanting to serve when your financial situation and future prospects are dismal is the definition of lazy. The opportunity is right there.

Medical condition? The ADA ensures these people can find gainful employment. Wasn't the conversation about socioeconomical situation to begin with?

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Seriously? So you're discounting anything but direct combat arms service in an asymmetrical environment? Beyond the fact that you're wrong, training accidents are very common.

Your second argument means nothing to my point and in fact supports it.

Finally, things like asthma or diabetes will keep you out of the service. The ADA won't do **** for that.

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Wait, so people shouldn't have to put themselves at risk to earn a comfortable living??? Did I read that garbage correctly???

Umm, hey, genius:

If you don't have education and experience that warrants you holding a comfy desk job making bank, risky jobs are the perfect place to look to get paid well.

Jesus, you can't make this **** up. I swear.

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Are you deliberately not understanding the point?

So we have discovered the crux of the issue. Sapper thinks that having to navigate reality is immoral, racist, bigoted.

You should be able to earn a middle class wage in the manner that he deems fair and safe. Apparently he believes middle class is a birthright. This is the very definition of entitled.

You are right, sapper. Everyone else is wrong. Only you are smart enough to understand the plight of the uneducated and poor. Only you know the way out.

Our ideas of personal responsibility are apparently way off base. Please tell me how much of my wealth I have to have redistributed so I can alleviate myself of my racism and hatred.

What's your problem? I've presented my side of the argument. Some of the responses have either not spoken to the argument or not understood it.

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So we have discovered the crux of the issue. Sapper thinks that having to navigate reality is immoral, racist, bigoted.

You should be able to earn a middle class wage in the manner that he deems fair and safe. Apparently he believes middle class is a birthright. This is the very definition of entitled.

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Good grief. We are talking about problems in economic mobility and the reasons for chronic poverty. Part of the problem is a lack of opportunity and your answer is dangerous jobs for poor people. What could go wrong?

What part? Put a percentage on it. I'd put laziness and taking a free handout while not providing children with two parents at 70%

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So we have discovered the crux of the issue. Sapper thinks that having to navigate reality is immoral, racist, bigoted.

You should be able to earn a middle class wage in the manner that he deems fair and safe. Apparently he believes middle class is a birthright. This is the very definition of entitled.

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Good grief. We are talking about problems in economic mobility and the reasons for chronic poverty. Part of the problem is a lack of opportunity and your answer is dangerous jobs for poor people. What could go wrong?

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My answer is you do whatever it takes. Like I did. Like my father did. Like my wife did, her father, their fathers, son and so forth. For some of us, it meant dangerous jobs. So what? Either you want out of poverty, or you dont. Either you want opportunity, or you dont. If you do, you find ways to make it happen without crying "poor me".

You know, that "pulling yourself up by the bootstraps" that you tried to convince me was just a myth, despite having lived it.

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What part? Put a percentage on it. I'd put laziness and taking a free handout while not providing children with two parents at 70%

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Here's the numbers for SNAP:



Roughly 60% of non-elderly, able-bodied adults work who are using SNAP. More than 80% work in the year before or year after using SNAP.

Not what I asked. What percentage of the problem is due to this:

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Part of the problem is a lack of opportunity...

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Holy crap! You're telling me it supports your argument that nearly half don't work?!?

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Not what I asked. What percentage of the problem is due to this:

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Part of the problem is a lack of opportunity...

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How exactly do you want me to quantify that? Wealth disparity? Health outcomes? Educational rankings? I already linked multiple studies on social mobility.

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Not what I asked. What percentage of the problem is due to this:

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Part of the problem is a lack of opportunity...

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How exactly do you want me to quantify that? Wealth disparity? Health outcomes? Educational rankings? I already linked multiple studies on social mobility.

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That's because you can't.

Am opportunity only exists if you make an effort to find one.

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You aren't thinking in terms of principle.

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Principle is nice. Here's mine: equality of opportunity. You're claiming there is currently equality of opportunity for someone born into a nice suburb to middle class white parents vs a black child born in an urban ghetto. Anyone with functioning brain cells knows that's bs.

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the United States military is ample opportunity for any individual born into any situation in life. Join up, work 20 years and have retirement and healthcare for life. This isn't rocket science. Stop making excuses.

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Unless you have a medical condition. Or the quota is met. Or you don't want to serve in the military for whatever reason. The military isn't 50 million people.

And you're basically saying poor people need to put their lives on the line just to have a chance at a middle class life.

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what percentage of those employed by the US military see combat duty? Yet another red-herring.

Not wanting to serve when your financial situation and future prospects are dismal is the definition of lazy. The opportunity is right there.

Medical condition? The ADA ensures these people can find gainful employment. Wasn't the conversation about socioeconomical situation to begin with?

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Seriously? So you're discounting anything but direct combat arms service in an asymmetrical environment? Beyond the fact that you're wrong, training accidents are very common.

Your second argument means nothing to my point and in fact supports it.

Finally, things like asthma or diabetes will keep you out of the service. The ADA won't do **** for that.

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where did I discount anything but direct combat? In fact, my point was that the percentage that serve supports roles is likely much higher than those in combat roles. But this conversation digresses from the topic at hand. If you an able bodied person born in a poor situation opportunity is there. You just have to be willing to accept it. For many, that should be military service. It is the quickest way to flip your situation. 4 years active duty can afford you a college education. 20 years gets you lifetime retirement. Let's forget the few scenarios that would prevent someone from joining, those are the exception.

No. WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE PROBLEM do you think is lack of opportunity, that keeps people poor?

70% laziness and taking handouts by single parent families is what I would say.

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No. WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE PROBLEM do you think is lack of opportunity, that keeps people poor?

70% laziness and taking handouts by single parent families is what I would say.

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So we're just randomly throwing numbers around with nothing to base them on but personal belief? Not playing that game. I can point to a ton of markers correlating to a lack of opportunity, and I've given some of them.

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What part? Put a percentage on it. I'd put laziness and taking a free handout while not providing children with two parents at 70%

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Here's the numbers for SNAP:



Roughly 60% of non-elderly, able-bodied adults work who are using SNAP. More than 80% work in the year before or year after using SNAP.

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So you're trying to argue that people don't abuse welfare out of laziness, and you presented a graph showing that work rates rose dramatically after welfare reform put a cap on benefits in 1996?

Thanks for proving everyone else right, I guess.

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Not what I asked. What percentage of the problem is due to this:

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Part of the problem is a lack of opportunity...

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How exactly do you want me to quantify that? Wealth disparity? Health outcomes? Educational rankings? I already linked multiple studies on social mobility.

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That's because you can't.

Am opportunity only exists if you make an effort to find one.

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THIS ^^^^^^^ is eot.

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What part? Put a percentage on it. I'd put laziness and taking a free handout while not providing children with two parents at 70%

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Here's the numbers for SNAP:



Roughly 60% of non-elderly, able-bodied adults work who are using SNAP. More than 80% work in the year before or year after using SNAP.

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So you're trying to argue that people don't abuse welfare out of laziness, and you presented a graph showing that work rates rose dramatically after welfare reform put a cap on benefits in 1996?

Thanks for proving everyone else right, I guess.

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Actually, I was arguing that there is a significant population working hard that is still poor and still has limited opportunities. The food stamp program participation plummeted after reform and has grown significantly recently because of the recession. And still most folks are working.

So now you think merely working entitles you to a middle class wage?

Oh sorry. I thought you knew.

And have discipline with the money you do make.

In all honesty, listening to Watson makes me care less about these issues. I and most others have their own problems to deal with.

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As my grandpa told me when I was being lazy and not helping him one weekend, "The world needs ditch diggers, Buck. If you don't pull your head out of your ass, you'll be one of them. You better learn how to do something a little more valuable to society, or your life is going to be spent looking at others who have more than you wondering why they had all the luck."

This from a man born in Germany under Hitler's rule and came to the US as a non-English speaking 8 year old shortly after WW2. Being German, he experienced a type of hate and prejudice during his teenage years that few of these poor people can fathom. A man who never finished the 10th grade and instead became an electrician trainee. Finished as a VP of a commercial electric company. Ended up more than providing for his family and giving us the work ethic we needed to succeed.

Sure, it's anecdotal, but I have many more examples from the rural area of Texas where I grew up. There are ways out, without the military. Construction crews, plumbers, landscapers, oil companies, etc. pretty much take anyone willing to work at a trainee level to start. But you have to work hard at something worth working at. Not "work hard at McDonalds".

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Actually, I was arguing that there is a significant population working hard that is still poor and still has limited opportunities. The food stamp program participation plummeted after reform and has grown significantly recently because of the recession. And still most folks are working.

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As I've stated before, PHD Watson.. in my professional life I've seen many blacks and hispanics move up into upper management with relative ease with no college education. Just as many, if not more than whites. Considering population percentages, they're much more represented than whites in my business. Several, not all aren't even very bright. In my first person world view I honestly believe minorities have many advantages over whites these days.

I seen a poster above mention McDonalds, but even at McDonalds you can work and move up and earn a decent living. It's not the best example, but it's possible. At almost any retail company you can work your way up into decent, if not above average money with zero college education. It can take time, but it's very achievable for even the most average of Joes.

Instant gratification doesn't exist though.. for ANYONE. Myself as an example.. I've only recently began truly climbing the ladder where I work. It's taken 6 years. I came in with more experience and a much better work quality than many of my fellow coworkers(of all races) and I would see them move beyond me despite this. I could have easily gotten disgruntled and fell back into another struggle, but I'm a grinder and it will continue to pay dividends.

I have no doubt in my mind that I would make it to a solid living in modern day America as an average black man. I've seen many do it. There's nothing holding a lot of them back besides delusion.

I understand some of Watsons points, but to me.. many of them will continue to be crutches instead of true eye openers. Social media continues to exemplify this.

I have not white guilt. I never owned slaves and as far as I know nobody in my family ever did so I have nothing to feel guilty about.