Jackie came off successive 11-1 seasons at Pitt and regressed his first three years here.

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Even without that, we're a offsides penalty vs OU and Goodson running OB vs Neb away from an undefeated regular season.

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You forget a falsely overturned interception by Mark Dodge followed by a perfectly covered pass that was still caught in the endzone.

Of course, on the flip side:

-If Army scores on the final play, they win 31-28.
-If we don't convert on 3rd down late, Kansas wins 18-14.
-If Jorvorskie Lane doesn't convert a 4th and 18 on a 1-handed catch, Oklahoma State wins 27-20.

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I am an Old Ag and qualify to answer this. Great question and relevant to everything currently at issue.

Please filter out the juvenile responses. Those are only funny sometimes. We do have to laugh at the terrible, terrible Teams A&M has fielded. As that is more norm than not.

Two points to make.

1. The Aggie fan base, the belief system, the history of the school are absolutely unique. The Spirit developed certainly deserves a better representative than current and past A&M football Teams. You can sense the ENERGY/drive/determination in the Stadium to will the Team to victory or even a stop on Third Down but it doesn't get reflected into the Team's Performance. So Aggie expectations are for the Team to represent their love of the Spirit of AGGIELAND.

2. Football Players in the State of Texas are too diluted. There are more football schools in Texas than anywhere else. tu used to get more and thus their overall winning record. But not anymore. There are Texas Players on most Big Time Programs across the U.S. If I could assemble a Team of 22 current Texas Players regardless of what Team they are currently playing for I would win the National Championship with "ME" being the coach. (Meaning the players would be enough to win it.)

Sumlin will be just like Fran and Sherman. (Please exclude Manziel's 2 years. He was the greatest ever.) You are now seeing Sumlin and A&M au natural now. Sherrill was the best coach ever at A&M. He "hand" selected his team like Murray, etc. That is what IT TAKES. Alabama gets 99% of EVERYONE they hand select. Plus they have a JUCO FEED system for any backup they need. It is a Professional System. You can't coach Mastro to tackle. He just can't do it.

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Is it about time we truly embrace the unofficial motto of the SEC?

Good old boy network does the hiring around here, and it rarely works out in the long run. That, and we've been playing catchup on facilities since John David Crow and Wally Groff were the AD's.

All of the above is true, and I'll add one more thing. RC in his early years came close to having National Championship teams but he was always one or two elite players from being a legitimate contender. I attribute at least part of it to playing in the SWC. A good number of top players in the state went to out of state colleges simply because they did not want to play in the SWC for the same reason they do not want to play in the Big 12 now. Had some of them chosen to come here, they might have been just the difference makers we needed to put us over the top. In turn, that might have changed the course of history.

Jerry Jones syndrome. The people with the money try to make decisions they shouldn't be making

Because we are worried about keeping traditions like corps, yell leaders, cannons, and not about winning.
We snuggle up to that blanket of traditions and inside looking out, that we settle for nice tries and good efforts. We put up with mediocrity because aggies don't hate other aggies. But sometimes the winning fanbases and programs have hate and pride themselves on winning. Not on traditions.


I love A&M, tough love, but there is some truth here.

My 30th year.

We need to fix a few things.. we will be ok.

We were a small all male military college during the years when the major programs were building historic reputations which (correctly/fairly or not) still persist. Frankly, given our size and disposition back then, we kicked arse at football...

Historic reputations are like gold to the teams that have it, and like a holy grail to those who don't.

Not many teams (eg Miami) are able to get the rep quickly.

We'll get it. Unfortunately it will come later than many of us thought. I hope I live to see it.

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Sherrill ran himself off..

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False. We caved in to the DMN and NCAA. Jackie was the best coach we ever had and we should have told the NCAA to go F itself because we are keeping our coach.

And I think jturner81 has a very valid synopsis.

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This is an example of Aggies blaming someone else for our issues. The DMN is just a newspaper. The NCAA cannot be ignored. I swear some people here just can't look in the mirror and see what everyone else sees.

If A&M had tried to downplay the funny stuff going on under Sherrill we risked becoming another Miami.

As a person who moved to Austin in 1984 for the beginning of six straight wins over Texas I treasure what Jackie did for A&M. But his downfall cannot be blamed on on a newspaper and the NCAA.

I agree we really were on the verge of national greatness with Jackie, and that MIGHT be exactly why he was "run off." He posed a threat to the natural order of things, i.e., tu. ... thing is, was Jackie doing the same things tu was doing? Was tu ever caught? Has tu EVER been caught? Why not? My theory: they developed and own(ed) useful people like journalists, politicians, etc. All we had (have?) are left-brain engineers and blowhard ex-military. It's all black and white to them - no shades of gray. They are incapable of understanding/playing "the game." In the end, this, like everything else, is about money and power. Things are changing; tu isn't the power it once was.

23rd all time wins considering they were behind in the facilities arms race until now for the last ten years, average to below coaching hires outside of Jackie and now Sumlin(yes he was and is a big time hire). I don't have the exact numbers in front of me but you can't tell me the multiple wars from 41-75 different effect A&M at different times vs so other schools. Yeah 23 sounds about right

For all of the years you mentioned, t.u. was able to pay players a LOT more than TAMU could or would. Prior to 1974, you had unlimited scholarships, which t.u. took advantage of their very wealthy alum and gobbled up any and all good recruits in an effort(that worked) to keep them from going anywhere else.

Tamu has truly been an underdog compared to the t.u.'s and Okrahoma teams. Since we joined the SEC, our otherwise, cheap ass alums have started spending copius amounts of $ to improve our football, etc. This being said, we are recruiting at an unprecedented level and regardless of who is coaching, Tamu will soon be an elite program.

Remember, the Bama's, LSU's, Ole Misses, etc have been recruiting on an SEC level for decades and have a huge headstart on us. We are throwing a ton of money at facilities, etc in an effort to catch up quickly. We've only recruited 2 1/2 SEC classes, so....... as long as we continue to spend the $, good things will happen.

Good post OP. I posted a similar question within another thread recently but it went nowhere in the postgame meltdown as I expected.

As I said in my post game comment I just cannot accept that there are historical haves and have nots and that's just the way it is. Actually, that I can understand but I can't accept that we're not a have on the production side while we clearly have the resources and fan commitment.

Basically very, very tired of excuses. That doesn't mean we should fire a coach every 3rd or 4th year and get caught in that vicious cycle. But we seem to find ourselves in this type of soul searching dilemnas more often than enjoying success.

Edit - good post by brakerman. I too think we're close but we've been waiting a long time considering that we thought we were close to a breakthrough under RC.

Spicewood, I just disagree. Those thoughts are part revisionist and part what the folks whose toes Jackie stepped on said at the time.

We stand up for him at the time, and it would have been fine.

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Until the move to the SEC, I believe the outside view was that A&M was a mid-tier football program...

As a school, no doubt a powerful and huge University, but in football, there was never the full scale commitment by the administration for athletics -

By moving to the SEC, a renown football conference and southern tradition league, its a statement by the University. Not only are we stepping up the athletic programs, but also embracing new traditions. We've always been tradition rich, but shallow pockets when it comes to pageantry of our brand, school, story, athletics, etc.

In Alabama, 87% of the population watches their college football team play on Saturday. In Texas, 17% of the population watches 1 of many play on Saturday... it simply is not as celebrated or valued. Because of the saturation of high school games, many programs on Saturday, and Cowboys/etc on Sunday, college football inside the state of Texas is not a religion like other places....

Travel around Texas neighborhoods and look for A&M flags in folks yards... then travel around Louisiana and you will see a fundamental shift...

Because of the adoption of college football in some communities, the focus on the Saturday games at Clemson, Florida State, Florida, Georgia, Alabama, LSU, Ole Miss, etc are just more rich in experience, care, commitment, and of course time spent by the community for the program.

A&M has never been loved by the surrounding communities, by the media, by the fans, etc like other programs have been. Aggies love A&M.... but the program has not been adopted with southern love/hospitality like other teams.

That outpouring of commitment, care, love, and support by the whole state flows into the Alabama program... and thus, makes it special. Same for Ole Miss, LSU, Florida, etc...

We are MUCH bigger than Alabama, better academics, many more students, many more wealthy alumni, huge endowment in comparison, etc.... we should, on paper, dominate them... buy why not? The commitment has not been there.... not yet anyway.

By stepping in the SEC, our eyes are opened to a religion that is athletic team support... of the likes we have simply never had or experienced. The 'culture' is slowly being adopted and I'm seeing a shift in support, but we aren't there yet.

Eventually A&M will be a special place athletically... a final destination for a Head Football Coach, not a stepping stone to something better.... Until that day, I'm here, supporting and standing at the 12th Man... and will help build that vision.

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Well said.

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we should have told the NCAA to go F itself because we are keeping our coach

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The NCAA and the media would have been after us for eternity until they found something. There was no way our football program could have been successful under that kind of pressure.

We were one more season with Manziel and Evans away. Should have done WHATEVER they asked for. Put the money in an endowment under their name. Promised them statues in front etc.

There are two differing opinions up above, one indicating that we have not been patient enough with coaches and the other indicating we have held on to some to long. Personally and IMHO, I believe the latter is the more accurate assessment, I think we have hung on to some too long. Some of these traditional power programs will not hesitate to make a move a few years in and will not hesitate to make multiple move for a few years until they get it right. As a poster above mentioned, at some of these powers it is a religion and they fully vested in the program, the entire state is. That is probably the reason why they don't hesitate to bring make moves, when 80%+ of your state is watching you play, and things go south, that is a lot of pressure to right the ship and quickly.

I think with the SEC move, we have shown a commitment to the athletics, I think it will take time but I do believe we will get there.

Excellent thread.

But I still see , wait till next year or years. Nothing wrong with believing. Just it continues the cycle.

Again, I really think Manziel spoiled a lot of folks(I mean $450MM worth and all those statues, where is his??). Can't really do that because A&M did not actually win any championship. All the current recruiting is better but not Alabama better.

59-0 remember folks. That is SEC reality. Losses this year to Auburn, LSU and more. Just watch every year going forward. Alabama elite 22 versus A&M's 6 or 7 studs. Year in and year out. Coaching is not going to out maneuver Alabama. Spurrier is excellent Coach but doesn't have the players Alabama does as just an example.

NCAA is owned by the Big Schools. It is Semi-Pro People. Sherrill was just playing by the rules of the "not in power" schools. It is good that once in 25 years an A&M with a rag tag squad challenges the great ones. Good for audiences and better commercial money. Just adopt that. Act humble for 25 years until maybe Manziel's son decides on A&M.

A&M almost turned a corner because of Manziel. Winning attracts the best. But this year is going to cancel that. A&M could not keep Manziel for 2 more years. That says something and proves something.

Too bad Aggie Spirit can't be represented by the Track Team. Those guys and girls are great.

SEC West gonna be better for recruiting but way more difficult than Big 12 to ever win anything.

"Just wait 'til next year" ... said by every Aggie since 1876.

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Too bad Aggie Spirit can't be represented by the Track Team.

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It is.

People need to realize that college football is honestly way more streaky than it lets on sometimes.

Texas had 9 10-win seasons in a row. This will be the fifth year in a row they're not even close to that.

Alabama for the 10 years before Saban was horrendous, but they turned it around.

Tennessee was a national powerhouse in the 90s all the way until 2004, and they hardly ever go to bowl games now / can't find a way to freaking beat Florida.

Va Tech used to wreck the ACC year in, year out, and they're constantly getting blown out at home now.

A 59-0 drubbing is tough, yeah, but it doesn't mean people need to talk about pulling the trigger on Sumlin. He's done well and we'll probably turn this around

I just read sail33or's thread and opened a vein.

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A&M almost turned a corner because of Manziel. Winning attracts the best. But this year is going to cancel that. A&M could not keep Manziel for 2 more years. That says something and proves something.

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I don't agree with this. 1. The only thing it says is he wanted to go pro and I don't blame him. This is not like Jamar Toombs declaring only to not get drafted. 2. Whether or not this year cancels anything is to be determined. I don't think it will and I hate to see a fellow Ag assuming 'we suck again' . I feel your pain but I don't believe this. We can do our part by not being defeatists.

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I agree we really were on the verge of national greatness with Jackie, and that MIGHT be exactly why he was "run off." He posed a threat to the natural order of things, i.e., tu. ... thing is, was Jackie doing the same things tu was doing? Was tu ever caught? Has tu EVER been caught? Why not? My theory: they developed and own(ed) useful people like journalists, politicians, etc. All we had (have?) are naive engineers and blowhard ex-military. It's all black and white to them - no shades of gray. They are incapable of understanding/playing "the game." In the end, this, like everything else, is about money and power. Things are changing; tu isn't the power it once was.

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tu did get caught. Only Aggies seem to not know this. Their hands were in a smaller cookie jar. Did they do more or less than A&M? I don't know. Someone does, but the story isn't on the internet to be found. My gut says tu knew how to play the game better than almost everyone - maybe because they produce so many lawyers. I don't think their advantage is so clear now. They don't truly excel not at much except revenue, mens swimming, and womens volleyball.

I agree with the poster above that college sports is streaky. Former powerhouses like Michigan truly suck now. Texas is gasping. Tennessee has been bad for a long time. Florida State has only recently recovered from the tail end of Bowden's tenure. Miami is still not back. Jeez there are two schools from Mississippi at the top of the rankings. That has never happened before.

Jturner181 is exactly right. I would only add that until recently, we have not had a lot of Ags in positions of power or influence in positions to help. We, for a long time, did not have a journalism school with alumni to shape the narrative in state or national media. We never, until recently, had a law school (thanks to tsip meddling), to get in the State legislature. We never had friends inside the NCAA like the sips did. We, for a long time, had presidents that were fine being told what to do.

(Gates was good in a lot of ways but, do you think for a minute he would have led us out of the BDF?)

We have been out-spent, out-manuevered, and accepting of "our place" for too long. The stars lined up with Dr. Loftin, Rick Perry, a legislature out of session, the LHN, and conference expansion. It is all about to change dramatically. This recent embarrassing loss is but a bump in the road. There is too much money at stake for us not to be contenders.

I agree with many of the other old Ags. It's coming.

Here's what I see us lacking over the years:
HEART.
I've seen teams that should have won go out there and just play at 20%. Kind of what we saw the last few games and especially in Alabama. We need a culture shift in the locker room. The culture on campus is already in place, and has been for a while. It's not making it into the locker room. Maybe the athletes need to mix more with the students, because they need to catch the mind set of "I'm a Texas Aggie by gum, and come hell or high water I shall prevail, I shall never give up, and even if I somehow get outscored I shall never be beaten. I shall never ever stop playing until the ref blows the final whistle".

So many years good teams just didn't believe in themselves. It's that little something extra that's missing. Having a great coach is important, but we need student leadership even more. You saw the effect of the team believing in Johnny. Imagine the effect if they believed in each other and themselves.

I'll rest.

I see some here have the "HOPE" thing going. Michigan, Texas, Virginia Tech, etc that have been mentioned as "once great" and now are not. This is not relevant to A&M because A&M has NEVER been in that company.

TEXAS ATHLETES GO TO EVERY CORNER OF THE COLLEGE WORLD.

A&M is a small/specific world (yes, but very, very proud.) The Alum has lots of Money as does the University.

The SEC timing while getting Manziel was a Giant Historic coincidence. You are now looking at SEC Reality. This year, next year, etc.

Yes, getting better recruits but always behind SEC Powers. BECAUSE THEY do not lose 59-0. It is the NOTHING Part to pay attention to. I always watch any Aggie game with one eye closed. I have lost more money than I care to mention by betting friends on A&M. Yes, I also HOPE they win something someday.

So is hope futile. Kinda. It will take a great leader to focus and concentrate all Aggie power, connections, money, legacy, creativity, etc. It will NOT come by switching to Kyle Allen, going to the next $5MM coach or calling a deep pass play, etc. Or putting 100,000 in the stands.

Alabama was 3-8 in 2000.

Quite frankly, your post is full of crap.

Greg Hill fumble against FSU sealed our eternal fate, eternally!

There is no reason why the only Texas team in the SEC can't be a national power. We have the $$$, the resources and Texas HS recruiting to be dominating every year.

After ending up #5 in year 1, making it to #6 this year and with our recruiting the past three years, I thought we were on our way. Hopefully it wasn't a mirage.

Cecil, you mention Alabama in 2000 to make what point. That A&M can rise to greatness also.

Alabama has a history of doing so. A&M was no where to be found in the top 25 in 2000 (like Alabama). Has A&M risen to Alabama level since. Alabama has many times. You are comparing the two situations.

No real comparison. Your post is crap.

We kinda agree about Sherrill.

I am saying many things have to happen for A&M success. Not just wait on Sumlin.

FTAB needs to play something more up tempo than When Johnny Comes Marching Home.