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Scary grafiti posted in Houston for HPD

8,875 Views | 138 Replies | Last: 8 yr ago by Texaggie7nine
Texan76
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quote:
You haven't yet explained why "military equipment" is a bad thing for police to have. just calling it military equipment as a reason to keep it with the military and out of LE and civilian hands is silly. lets look at some other pieces of "military equipment" and technology

GPS
Freeze Drying
EPIPEN
Duct Tape
Penicilin
Aviator Sunglasses
Walkie-Talkies
It is bad for normal police because it intimidates the very people they took an oath to protect and serve. You think anyone wants to communicate with someone dressed in full tactical gear?

Here is an excerpt from an article on what I consider a better tactic for police to take than walking around like Rambo:

In November 2011, a homeless man estimated to be in his 40s was found dead in a tent at the Occupy encampment in Salt Lake City's Pioneer Park. He died from a mix of a drug overdose and carbon monoxide poisoning from a portable heater. The incident prompted city officials to determine that it was no longer safe for the protesters to camp in the park overnight.

Salt Lake City Police Chief Chris Burbank, 46, was in charge of the eviction. But Burbank took a decidedly different approach from his counterparts in other cities who used aggressive, confrontational measures to oust their own Occupy encampments.

Burbank showed up at the camp and talked to the protesters, in some cases one on one. He explained that they'd need to start leaving the park at night, although they could come back during the day. He said that when the time came for them leave, they could do so peacefully, or they could choose to be arrested. He even asked them how they'd like their arrests to take place, in case they wanted the TV and newspaper cameras to photograph them giving themselves up for their cause.

Unconventional has been Burbank's modus operandi since he was appointed chief of police in 2006. Be it the drug war, immigration, or the handling of protests, Burbank's mantra to his officers is the same: Use the minimum amount of force necessary to resolve the situation. Or as Burbank puts it, "It's not can I do it, but should I do it?"

When it came time to evict the Occupy protesters in Pioneer Park, then, Burbank and his officers wore their standard, everyday uniforms, not riot gear, as police units in other cities had. Burbank also made sure he was first on the scene -- that the first person the protesters saw was the one with whom they had already had a conversation.

Most of the 200 protesters left voluntarily. Some took advantage of Burbank's offer to have his officers help with their belongings. Nineteen chose to be arrested. There was no violence, no rioting and little anger. And so as images of violent clashes between Occupiers and police in other cities made headlines across the country, in Utah, some Occupiers even praised Burbank for the way he had handled their eviction. It's one reason why the Salt Lake Tribune named Burbank its 2011 "Utahn of the Year."

"I just don't like the riot gear," Burbank says. "Some say not using it exposes my officers to a little bit more risk. That could be, but risk is part of the job. I'm just convinced that when we don riot gear, it says 'throw rocks and bottles at us.' It invites confrontation. Two-way communication and cooperation are what's important. If one side overreacts, then it all falls apart."

Burbank also dismisses the idea that his approach could only work in a smaller city like Salt Lake. "I think it should be applied everywhere. That's exactly how we as a nation should approach these events. We should approach it asking, 'How can we best facilitate these people's free speech?' Putting them nine miles away from whatever they're protesting doesn't allow them to get their message across.

"Doing it this way takes extra time, and sometimes you take a little criticism from your officers," he says. "But if my officers feel unsafe, that's when it's my responsibility as chief to show up personally."

Last July, Burbank weighed in on the issue of police militarization during an interview with the Deseret News. He said he worried that police were becoming too aggressive and too willing to use force.
"We're not the military," Burbank said at the time. "Nor should we look like an invading force coming in."
His comments came as editorial boards, columnists, and readers were still weighing in on a deadly police raid on the home of Matthew David Stewart, the death of Danielle Willard at the hands of two police officers and a scandal within the West Valley narcotics unit.

"It's unfortunate that an officer was killed," Burbank says of the Stewart raid. "But we need to take a look at their approach. Could we do it a better way? It should never be the goal to write a no-knock warrant. As police officers, our goal should always be to use the lowest possible level of force to fulfill our responsibilities. In a case like that, I don't know why you can't wait and just stop them as they walk out the front door."

Since the Stewart raid, a group of reformers have been pushing for legislation that would limit the use of forced-entry raids. Burbank said that he's gradually implementing a similar approach in Salt Lake City.

"I spent eight years on the SWAT team. I've served hundreds of no-knock warrants. I know firsthand how it all operates," he says. "I also know firsthand that there are better alternatives. Too often we start with the highest level of force. We should always start at the lowest level. If the police show up and the situation deteriorates, then that's our fault. We haven't done our job right. I think we get too caught up in the whole officer safety thing. The danger you expose everyone to in these raids is significant."

Burbank points to an incident in January in which police and federal officials were pursuing two women suspected in a string of bank robberies. One of the women, Kelly Fay Simons, was apprehended by the Joint Criminal Apprehension Team, a fugitive task force made up of U.S. Marshals and cops from law enforcement agencies around the area. Simons was killed when, according to officers on the JCAT team, she drove her truck at them.

Burbank had recently pulled his department out of the JCAT program because he believed the team's tactics were too aggressive. The day after Simons' death, Burbank's own officers located her accomplice, Sandra Chotia-Thompson, and convinced her to turn herself in without incident.

"Again," Burbank says, "we should be asking, what's the least amount of force we can get away with here, and still be safe?"

As for the service of drug warrants, Burbank rejects the conventional wisdom held by so many police departments around the country that aggressive raids make the process safer for everyone. He says the goal in drug investigations should be about improving quality of life and making neighborhoods safe, not necessarily making arrests and racking up convictions.

"Let's say you have neighbors complaining about a drug house on the corner," he says. "They don't feel safe. It's a menace. Now, you could do a long investigation, culminating in a big raid. But in the meantime, the neighbors still have to live with the menace. Why not just send two uniformed cops to the house that same afternoon? They knock. They say, 'Hey. Knock it off.' The drug dealers pick up and leave. No guns drawn, no raid. Which approach will have a more immediate effect on the neighborhood?"

He adds that the latter approach is also less likely to get someone killed -- whether a cop, a drug suspect or a bystander.

Burbank worries that police today get too much training in how to use different types of force, but too little training in conflict resolution.

"I have two goals in policing. First, we need to humanize our police forces. We aren't an occupying force. We are a part of the community. And we need to understand that to do our jobs, we sometimes need to expose ourselves to a little bit of risk. Otherwise we end up doing our jobs out of paranoia, not out of dignity and respect for the community," he says.

"Second, no bias in what we do. We need to recognize that we have emotions, and learn to dial that back a little bit. One of the most important traits in a good police officer is empathy."
Texan76
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quote:
Do you think perhaps there may possibly be a correlation between a lower Line of Duty deaths and advanced gear and tactics? Gee, I wonder.
Correlation, yes. Causation, no.

There is also a correlation between lower line of duty deaths and the invention of the internet.
BlackGoldAg2011
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AG
This in no way proves that "normal police" shouldn't have "military" gear. all it proves is that this instance was not a circumstance where it was needed. just because one police force didn't need riot gear to clear out some protesters, doesn't mean that they will never need it. finding one situation where "military equipment" wasn't needed does not mean it is never needed or called for.

further more, restricting the equipment our police use because "it is intimidating" is asinine. the took an oath to protect and serve, not "make me feel better". and in some instances, being able to intimidate is a huge benefit in de-escalating a situation.

so if you want to make the argument that our police need training in proper ways to interact with people in various situations, go for it.
if you want to argue that better judgement is needed on when to deploy what equipment, be my guest.
but to argue that because they sometimes don't need it, then they shouldn't have it at all, makes you seem foolish and naive.

edited for Texan76 because apparently he likes line breaks
BlackGoldAg2011
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AG
quote:
quote:
Do you think perhaps there may possibly be a correlation between a lower Line of Duty deaths and advanced gear and tactics? Gee, I wonder.
Correlation, yes. Causation, no.

There is also a correlation between lower line of duty deaths and the invention of the internet.
why is improving gear used and tactics employed not causal to lower rates of duty deaths as populations have increase?
randy828
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AG
wow, the people arguing over our police force using whatever they can to do their job boggles my mind.

Go put a badge on, walk a few days in their shoes, go make a bust in a gang infested/drug dealer area and tell me you don't want as much protection and force as you can absolutely have.


I am absolutely for giving our police officers every means available to capture or eliminate the criminals in our cities.
GoneGirl
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AG
quote:
I can tell you it's a scary time to be a police officer. we all know it's a dangerous job when you sign up, but things have changed. I dont see it getting any better anytime soon. BS like this doesnt help.
Too true. I know we've been talking with our officers about being careful out there. They're trained to be observant, but it's a totally different atmosphere.
Texan76
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quote:
This in no way proves that "normal police" shouldn't have "military" gear. all it proves is that this instance was not a circumstance where it was needed. just because one police force didn't need riot gear to clear out some protesters, doesn't mean that they will never need it. finding one situation where "military equipment" wasn't needed does not mean it is never needed or called for. further more, restricting the equipment our police use because "it is intimidating" is asinine. the took an oath to protect and serve, not "make me feel better". and in some instances, being able to intimidate is a huge benefit in de-escalating a situation. so if you want to make the argument that our police need training in proper ways to interact with people in various situations, go for it. if you want to argue that better judgement is needed on when to deploy what equipment, be my guest. but to argue that because they sometimes don't need it, then they shouldn't have it at all, makes you seem foolish and naive.
I'd be happy if you would just take an oath to hit the return key every once in awhile.
The Wonderer
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AG
quote:
Do you think perhaps there may possibly be a correlation between a lower Line of Duty deaths and advanced gear and tactics? Gee, I wonder.
It's my job to wonder!
GoneGirl
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AG
quote:
quote:
I can tell you it's a scary time to be a police officer. we all know it's a dangerous job when you sign up, but things have changed. I dont see it getting any better anytime soon. BS like this doesnt help.


Im worried people will leave the force or simply stop police work if sentiment continues to support criminals over police.
We've got six open positions right now.
rjamizon
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quote:
quote:
I don't have to join HPD. I get to vote. And people like me are voting away police department's ability to buy "toys" like MRAPs, grenade launchers, and grenades (even if it makes you fee good to play semantics).
Not in Houston, you aren't. HPD is funded with the General Fund, which voters don't have any say in, except through who they elect, and every candidate in recent history has campaigned on more funding for HPD.


I don't get to vote for Mayor, City Council, or Sherrif?
BlackGoldAg2011
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AG
even your own graph you posted shows how adopting new gear can improve police survival when you look at what happened around the change in the trend
Ryan the Temp
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AG
quote:
quote:
quote:
I don't have to join HPD. I get to vote. And people like me are voting away police department's ability to buy "toys" like MRAPs, grenade launchers, and grenades (even if it makes you fee good to play semantics).
Not in Houston, you aren't. HPD is funded with the General Fund, which voters don't have any say in, except through who they elect, and every candidate in recent history has campaigned on more funding for HPD.


I don't get to vote for Mayor, City Council, or Sherrif?
Reading comprehension.

And the Sheriff doesn't have any authority over HPD, btw.
BlackGoldAg2011
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AG
better?
rjamizon
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quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
I don't have to join HPD. I get to vote. And people like me are voting away police department's ability to buy "toys" like MRAPs, grenade launchers, and grenades (even if it makes you fee good to play semantics).
Not in Houston, you aren't. HPD is funded with the General Fund, which voters don't have any say in, except through who they elect, and every candidate in recent history has campaigned on more funding for HPD.


I don't get to vote for Mayor, City Council, or Sherrif?
Reading comprehension.

And the Sheriff doesn't have any authority over HPD, btw.


Ryan, c'mon man.
Texaggie7nine
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http://www.khou.com/story/news/local/2015/09/01/former-oilers-star-claims-cop-pulled-gun-him-during-traffic-stop/71547910/
7nine
Ag of Enlightenment
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AG
If you don't believe there is a direct correlation between modern gear and tactics the lowering of LOD deaths and injuries, you are naive at best, willfully ignorant at worst.

The simple fact of the matter is this: modern tactics and modern equipment (flash bangs, armored personnel vehicles, etc) save lives. We are not nor wish to be an "occupying force." We respond to dangerous criminals, we are not the cub scouts. I'm sorry if you feel intimidated by modern police officers.
Texan76
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Got zero issues with kevlar.

Police militarization and the warrior cop crap started in the last 15 years or so in ernest. Exacerbated by all the surplus military equipment and gear left over from our recent wars. Has that made cops safer?

To me, it has made citizens less safe and less trusting of police. That makes police work more dangerous. You are not occupying forces. You are civil servants.

No knock raids with flash bang grenades should be very, very rare.

When police become the army, they need an enemy. We are the enemy now.

And I am a 38 year old white attorney who lives inside the loop Houston, has my CHL, and whose criminal record consists of two speeding tickets.

If militarization makes me uneasy, imagine what it does to poor people in crappy neighborhoods. Not all of them are bad people. But they won't talk to someone dressed up like a Soldier of Fortune. Talking to witnesses and the community is kind of an important thing.
rjamizon
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Your words say this:

quote:
We are not nor wish to be an "occupying force."


Yet police actions say this:

aggiemike02
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AG
its only partially ironic that your picture shows your point parked at what looks like a fair or a park, not actually being used in any type of action whatsoever.
Ag of Enlightenment
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AG
So let me see if I'm clear here: you would feel safer if law enforcement were put in more danger. That's your argument?
The Wonderer
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AG
quote:
its only partially ironic that your picture shows your point parked at what looks like a fair or a park, not actually being used in any type of action whatsoever.
And also having USMC stenciling with what appears to be an inventory number...
aggiemike02
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AG
hahaha, yep. i didnt want to pile it on but...
GoneGirl
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AG
I've seen our Bear Cat in action and I know it saved lives that day.
onceaggie
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AG
quote:
I don't have to join HPD. I get to vote. And people like me are voting away police department's ability to buy "toys" like MRAPs, grenade launchers, and grenades (even if it makes you fee good to play semantics).


Lol if you think your vote matters
GoneGirl
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AG
quote:
quote:
I don't have to join HPD. I get to vote. And people like me are voting away police department's ability to buy "toys" like MRAPs, grenade launchers, and grenades (even if it makes you fee good to play semantics).


Except my vote cancels out yours.
BlackGoldAg2011
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AG
quote:
Got zero issues with kevlar.
you made the statement that you didn't believe there was a causation between using advanced gear and tactics and lower duty deaths. kevlar is an example of using advanced gear
quote:
Police militarization and the warrior cop crap started in the last 15 years or so in ernest. Exacerbated by all the surplus military equipment and gear left over from our recent wars. Has that made cops safer?
please define what you mean by "police militarization" as this discussion has been talking about the use of surplus equipment, not some undefined, polarizing piece of rhetoric.
quote:
To me, it has made citizens less safe and less trusting of police. That makes police work more dangerous. You are not occupying forces. You are civil servants.
conjecture based on personal opinions. show me evidence of this assertion. it may make citizens feel less safe, but decisions should not be made based on how a policy makes people feel.
quote:
No knock raids with flash bang grenades should be very, very rare.
couldn't agree with you more
quote:
When police become the army, they need an enemy. We are the enemy now.
inflammatory, political rhetoric. meaningless in actual, logical discussion
quote:
And I am a 38 year old white attorney who lives inside the loop Houston, has my CHL, and whose criminal record consists of two speeding tickets.
what relevance in the slightest does this have to the discussion at hand
quote:
If militarization makes me uneasy, imagine what it does to poor people in crappy neighborhoods. Not all of them are bad people. But they won't talk to someone dressed up like a Soldier of Fortune. Talking to witnesses and the community is kind of an important thing.
again, your and the public's feelings are and should be completely irrelevant in making decisions about policy, gear, and tactics.

(also, did i use enough line breaks to be to your liking?)
rjamizon
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How about this:



or this:


or this one:


or this one:


or this one:
BlackGoldAg2011
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AG
so based on your previous comments
quote:
Yet police actions say this
and these pictures, i can only assume you are worried that our police spend too much time parking their MRAPs in various locations

edit:
sorry, just noticed that one is being driven in a parade, and is not in fact, parked
rjamizon
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It's funny that you don't understand why people are upset with police, yet over and over again in this thread when people have tried to show you why, you mock them. I am 100% against violence against police, but if you don't try to understand why people are agitated, the police hate and violence will only get worse. Mock away.
Sooper Jeenyus
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AG
quote:
quote:
again, your and the public's feelings are and should be completely irrelevant in making decisions about policy, gear, and tactics.

Wow. Just shut-up and comply, huh?
BlackGoldAg2011
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AG
sorry, I shouldn't mock, but you are not putting together any sort of argument for why the police should not have "military equipment". all you are doing is proving that they in fact have this equipment. which no one is arguing. we all agree that they have it. While i concede that I shouldn't mock, it is simply out of frustration while I wait for someone to put together a succinct argument for why the police should be forbidden from owning this equipment other than "it looks scary"

and i do understand why people are upset with police in many occasions. what i don't understand is why some people are upset at the fact that PDs simply own equipment that they can't fathom a need for. which i have tried to lay out on several occasions why they might need such equipment.
Zobel
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AG
Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles are over the top for civilian police forces.

Fully automatic weapons are (generally) over the top for civilian police forces.

Chris Burbank has it right, and we could use about a million more like him.
BlackGoldAg2011
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AG
quote:
quote:
quote:
again, your and the public's feelings are and should be completely irrelevant in making decisions about policy, gear, and tactics.

Wow. Just shut-up and comply, huh?
reading comprehension, not sure why I expect it at this point:

no. valid arguments supported by facts and data should be considered in those decisions. peoples feelings (also see, emotions) are and should be irrelevant in policy making
The Wonderer
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AG
quote:
It's funny that you don't understand why people are upset with police, yet over and over again in this thread when people have tried to show you why, you mock them. I am 100% against violence against police, but if you don't try to understand why people are agitated, the police hate and violence will only get worse. Mock away.
I'm not a fan of MRAPs being handed to what seems like every single police force, but let me show you why they are necessary in larger metro areas:

North Hollywood Shootout - 02/28/1997

Video of the shootout



BlackGoldAg2011
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AG
there is also the point that MRAPs are being handed out (read: free). while they may be over the top in some circumstancs, would you rather your tax dollars go to destroying (or storing) a perfectly good armored vehicle because it is "over the top" for a police force, and then more tax dollars go to the PD acquiring an entirely new vehicle that isn't so "over the top"?
 
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