So one isolated incident in 1997, in which neither side was using up-armored vehicles, demonstrated the need for all municipalities to have such vehicles?

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Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles are over the top for civilian police forces.

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why?

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Fully automatic weapons are (generally) over the top for civilian police forces.

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why?

If you want to get really technical, a flash bang is a grenade. There are multiple types of grenades ranging from flash bangs, fragmentation, high explosive, etc.

I'm on the side that militarization of LEO's is not necessarily the best idea. I get the premise behind it, and have little issue with LEO's implementing daily equipment like kevlar vests or even tactical load carrying vests because they serve more than one purpose.

I do, however, have issues with MRAP's going to LEO's or the implementation of SWAT tactics for what should be non-SWAT issues.

For example - int he case where the flash bang grenade put the baby in a coma, why exactly was there an absolute need to raid the house? I've found that if you look at a situation where this is implemented - the vast majority of times it is not necessary and doing something as simple as waiting and making a better decision on when to arrest somebody would prevent a lot of perceived issues. A great example of this is the Branch Davidian raid. I'm not saying it is somethign that can be done in 100% of all situations - but generally speaking, and especially for something like a drug deal arrest, posting survellance and arresting the guy when he is at breakfast at Denny's or somesuch is less likely to have both a negative public perception and put officer's lives in danger as well.

I still can't understand where the DOJ has any authority over municipal LEO departments either. In fact, they should have absolutely ZERO authority as a safeguard - we have no national police force and never should.

There are great cops out there. There are craptastic cops. One of the biggest issues is the wall of defense of LEO's that needs to be overcome sometimes when a craptastic cop should not be a cop anymore. I get protecting your own, but LEO's should be the first to boot an officer that does not walk the line properly. And there should be more understanding on both the citizen and municipal LEO side of perception, what daily life is like, etc. Anything but the continual wedge that seems to be driven between the two anyway.

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again, your and the public's feelings are and should be completely irrelevant in making decisions about policy, gear, and tactics.

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And some cops wonder whey they are having a public relations disaster the past couple years.

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So one isolated incident in 1997, in which neither side was using up-armored vehicles, demonstrated the need for all municipalities to have such vehicles?

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It is generally seen as when LEOs started "ramping up" because of the absolute chaos caused by 2 determined individuals against 400 LEOs armed with some shotguns and revolvers.

That is absolutely a time when an armored vehicle is useful as are long range snipers.

Because by nature they are designed to protect their occupants and operators from mines and ambushes. Last I checked, we don't have a high incident of mines or ambushes in the city of Houston.

Fully automatic weapons are designed, generally speaking, for suppressive fire. As a rule, shots fired on full auto are not aimed rounds. I see no reason for a civilian law enforcement agency to be using suppressive fire.

Just don't break the ******* law and mind your own business.










/EOT

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And give me a break with the tax dollars. I see ghosted out interceptors and brand new trucks all the time. It's no different than any other aspect of our government spending -- wasteful, budget driven, and completely out of tune with the rest of the nation.

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In Houston, most of the public safety budget goes toward funding the pensions.

What's an MRAP gonna do there? Drive up and squish 'em? Most civilian MRAPs don't have a gunner up top.

You've given a case study that you suggest caused the adoption of MRAPs. Can you show me the corresponding case study where the use of an MRAP addressed the problem presented by this case?

In an ironic way it reinforces my point. "No different than any other aspect of our government spending".

And he's saying that MRAPs save tax dollars. Uh huh.

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And give me a break with the tax dollars. I see ghosted out interceptors and brand new trucks all the time. It's no different than any other aspect of our government spending -- wasteful, budget driven, and completely out of tune with the rest of the nation.

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So because we are wasting money in other areas, we shouldn't care about wasted money here?

and i'm saying already built MRAPs save tax dollars over buying new police specific armored vehicles

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What's an MRAP gonna do there? Drive up and squish 'em? Most civilian MRAPs don't have a gunner up top.

You've given a case study that you suggest caused the adoption of MRAPs. Can you show me the corresponding case study where the use of an MRAP addressed the problem presented by this case?

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No, I gave you an incident that may have been different if police had a vehicle that was armored, MRAP, APC, or otherwise. And that shootout did lead to changes in how LAPD and other departments outfitted their officers.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2012/02/how-the-north-hollywood-shootout-changed-patrol-rifles.aspx

The onus isn't on the public to tell police forces why the answer is no. The onus is on the cops to tell us why the answer is yes.

Police officers should have the tools they need to do their jobs.

The MRAP and other up-armored vehicles were engineered as a response to a (military) need.

Police do not need them to do their jobs. "Free" from Uncle Sam or otherwise.

And you can't just park an MRAP (or any vehicle) and use it. They require maintenance and have operating costs. Your tax argument is silly.

What's that got to do with MRAPs?

I don't have a problem with an officer carrying a rifle. Or anyone else, for that matter.

As many crazy people as there are in the US, I have no problem with the police gearing up for worse case scenario. If they don't have the training or competence to know when to use it, that's on them and there should be hell to pay.

But I'd rather have them equipped then to be outgunned by thugs, cartel, etc.

Is militarization of the police force a real issue? Seems to be a very minor point.

I guess MRAP maintenance if free. Probably does not require specialized parts or mechanics with specialized skills. I am sure the Crown Vic ball bearings will work just fine on the MRAPs.

It's all ball bearings these days anyway.

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Just don't break the ******* law and mind your own business.










/EOT

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"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so."

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Just don't break the ******* law and mind your own business.










/EOT

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"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so."

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So you're one of those....

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you know what SWAT stands for? Sit Wait And Talk. I'm not sure where people get the idea that No-Knock Warrants and Dynamic Entries are the norm, the truth is its far from it. In my almost decade on, I've only been on 2 scenes that became SWAT scenes. And SWAT scenes go on for hours. They will arrive, stage, brief, and make contact and then wait and wait, and wait. Unless of course immediate action is required which is only necessary if the loss of life is immediate. Narcotics Teams will more often make dynamic entries because they know the evidence (narcotics) can often be destroyed quickly.

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Truth, right here. It isn't what you see on tv - especially what you see on the news.

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wow, the people arguing over our police force using whatever they can to do their job boggles my mind.

Go put a badge on, walk a few days in their shoes, go make a bust in a gang infested/drug dealer area and tell me you don't want as much protection and force as you can absolutely have.


I am absolutely for giving our police officers every means available to capture or eliminate the criminals in our cities.

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So much this. I'm just glad that my family members in HPD have finally had enough of all this **** and are retiring.

How do you send a PM? Was trying to send one but I didn't want to throw actual names on Texags. Especially names of officers.

Gotta buy stars

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The simple fact of the matter is this: modern tactics and modern equipment (flash bangs, armored personnel vehicles, etc) save lives. We are not nor wish to be an "occupying force." We respond to dangerous criminals, we are not the cub scouts. I'm sorry if you feel intimidated by modern police officers.

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That is one hell of a golification for what amounts to < 1% of a LEOs on the job acitivity.

Noooooooo. Freedom(Braveheart)

Dumb ****s because they don't just say thank you and not question the fashion by which some cops do their "jobs"?