AggieDruggist89 said:

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double b said:

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Also, anyone thinking of MIT you will at least need one of these things for a STEM field, and the more you can accumulate, the better your odds are for admissions.

• University-level research
• Research Publication
• Summer Internship with a well-known company
• Super Selective Summer Research Program (RSI, Welch Scholars, Fermi Lab, etc.)
• National Academic Accomplishments (USACO, AIME/AMO, F=MA, Robotics, etc.)
• Start a non-profit

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And how should normal parents and students know this?

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1. They obviously aren't looking for normal students
2. If a kid has been in the smart kids class for 12 years, they are going to know what the other high achievers are doing, their advisors and teachers know it too.

double b said:

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Bonfire.1996 said:

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He's been an Aggie his whole life, so it's all good, but the most frustrating thing is my son learning how the USA works at age 17. Meritocracy is finished and I hope it hasn't influenced his drive for greatness.

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I certainly understand your frustration in this process and your son sounds like a phenomenal person. I am quite sure he will make an excellent citizen and will give back more to society than he takes.

However, he sounds like the classic case of a well-rounded student, and selective colleges want students to be "pointy" or "angular" in college applications. All of the schools you mentioned have an essay asking "why this major" question. More than likely, his response and his resume didn't match up well. I bet with a little bit of guidance and support, the results may been very different for Ga Tech and UMICH.

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Your son sounds as if he is incredibly driven, as is mine. I COMPLETELY understand your sentiment with regards to the understanding that we do not live in a meritocracy, and that with regards to institutions of higher learning (and initial employment) it is perfectly acceptable to discriminate against White and Asian kids based on race, and it is completely unacceptable to discuss it in an open and honest way.

With regards to schools wanting a "pointy" or "angular" application, I fell into the trap, given to me by a college counselor, of believing that colleges really wanted intellectual diversity on their campuses, not just what they brag about (their diversity of skin color). Unfortunately, the area where my son excels in, and devoted significant time to (becoming Chairman of our state's Teen Republicans, volunteering on multiple campaigns, participating in our city's Youth City Council, publishing an independent research paper about Gen Z's engagement in politics, etc.) did absolutely nothing for him in terms of gaining acceptance to one of multiple universities to which he applied. At least the counselor WAS smart enough to tell him to not include his participation in Pro-Life events on his resume, even to the "Catholic" universities to which he applied.

Another Doug said:

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1. They obviously aren't looking for normal students
2. If a kid has been in the smart kids class for 12 years, they are going to know what the other high achievers are doing, their advisors and teachers know it too.

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1. My kids are pretty normal though my son does compete in Rubik's cube competition. He does it in less than 10 seconds but I think it now requires sub 3 seconds.
2. I think my kids were in smart kids class but not sure what other high achievers were doing was blatantly obvious.

I don't know how much different the final outcome would've been for my daughter if we did it differently. Better undergrad with similar Law school for similar outcome but a larger student loan debt that includes undergrad? Son definitely did better with undergrad admissions but we shall see what happens with grad school. Will definitely follow up in 3-4 years.

Our (unfortunately white male son with two working college educated parents) is in his top choice grad school. Six percent of his graduate school classmates are white males. You need to be top 1-2% everything to compete if you don't have the demographics de jour. Even if you succeed, you will be hated for being a cold blooded soul crushing gunner because that is what it takes.

Bonfire.1996 said:

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double b said:

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Also, anyone thinking of MIT you will at least need one of these things for a STEM field, and the more you can accumulate, the better your odds are for admissions.

• University-level research
• Research Publication
• Summer Internship with a well-known company
• Super Selective Summer Research Program (RSI, Welch Scholars, Fermi Lab, etc.)
• National Academic Accomplishments (USACO, AIME/AMO, F=MA, Robotics, etc.)
• Start a non-profit

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Thanks for your kind words, it's fine, we are over it, and he will have a great time and a bright future at A&M.

That list is quite comical, though. I understand the "desire" aspect of getting a 14-17 year involved in the field they are choosing. It's stupid, but I understand it. Maybe they are trying to test the kid's commitment level, who knows?

But making those things the deciding factor amongst a class of elite students is dumb. In STEM fields, it is quite simple. The brightest, the most creative, and the most gifted students will go farther and faster than students who excelled at the "desire" aspect. MIT, and everyone for that matter, does NOTHING to identify the truly elite academic performers.

It's all BS though. MIT says on their freaking website that all their applicants are elite students and they feel it is their duty to diversify the elite. White males are absolutely excluded, period.

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Can always apply for grad school. Honestly it's probably a bit easier than under grad. Be active in engineering clubs, get good grades and good GRE score.

Go to Tulsa for free.

Seriously, when are people gonna learn? If you're dead set on an elite school, you've already decided to go to grad school or professional school. So, just follow the money for undergrad, and then go to grad school at one of those elite places, and they'll pay you to be there.

Getting a bachelor's degree at MIT is a horrible idea for almost everybody.

94chem said:

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Go to Tulsa for free.

Seriously, when are people gonna learn? If you're dead set on an elite school, you've already decided to go to grad school or professional school. So, just follow the money for undergrad, and then go to grad school at one of those elite places, and they'll pay you to be there.

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I get it. But there's also the experience of going to a bigger school, where you feel comfortable, etc. I made a decision based on money when I chose my college (chose A&M over Rice), and am glad that I did, but I also feel that it's such an important, formative time in your life that you need to be happy where you go. I am not going to say I am made of money, but I do have a 529 set up for my son that I have funded and that his grandmother funded. That being said, there are some schools I have told him I would NOT pay for, where I don't think the ROI is there at all.

One other point, is that simple demographics and more information has shrunk the funnel.

People here are taking about changes in the last 50 years, in 1974 the US population was 209 million, now it is 341 million. So there are over 60 percent more kids (assuming basic age demographics are similar) applying for each spot than did 50 years ago.
Additionally, with the rise of college rankings (USNWR etc.), the schools parents consider good enough for their kids has narrowed. Everyone applies to the same 50 or so schools. But the University of Kentucky still has a 94 percent acceptance rate for example, Ole Miss is at 90. On the flip side, UVA is at 16 percent, UNC at 17 percent. Two of those schools are favored in rankings, 2 aren't. Even if they are better schools, the difference isn't that stark.

And then add the common app, where kids can easily apply to a dozen schools or more, and the pool for each spot grows even more.

The solution is parents realizing getting into an actual or public Ivy isn't the end all. It helps, but a kids ability and work either after college is multiples more important than where they got their degree. I have worked for Ivy League grads and for people who went to commuter schools. Get your degree, get your foot in the door and make your own success.

Saw the local news highlight a girl that got accepted into 57 schools. All I could think was "You and people like you are jacking up the process for schools and other kids just for an ego-stroke."

The solution is parents realizing getting into an actual or public Ivy isn't the end all.
---------------^^^^^^^
This.

DannyDuberstein said:

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Saw the local news highlight a girl that got accepted into 57 schools. All I could think was "You and people like you are jacking up the process for schools and other kids just for an ego-stroke."

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Yep, they should shame people like this. They are making life difficult for admissions officers and causing real harm to kids that are trying to get into their dream schools. If the news had any integrity at all they would ask, "So why did you apply to all of these schools you had no intention of attending?"

It's disgusting to me when I see some super smart kid that applies to volumes of schools they have zero intent to attend simply because of ego and bragging rights, especially for selective schools. I actually don't even blame the kid as much as I blame the parents that likely encouraged them to do so.

There are lots of Youtube videos out there of kids that get into 10 or more of the Top 25 schools. They also apply to a ton of next tier schools they know they will be admitted. So they end up with this volume of acceptances knowing their real list was less than 5. So all they are doing is taking spots from kids that really want to go to those schools. They force schools to try to find ways to figure out yields based around this as well and many are starting to deny kids who are highly qualified but they assume they are just playing games with them. For instance a kid from the other part of the country with no connection to an area who has never visited or shown interest in a school but has a great app to the point of being overqualified.

BTW, this happens at A&M as well and especially with the Top 10% rule. About 16k applicants to A&M were Top 10%. So essentially the entire Freshman class could be Top 10% Auto Admit. That's still less than half of the kids that actually are Top 10% in Texas. These are kids that get accepted in September but don't have to say yes or no until May. So then you have about 40k who aren't Top 10% fighting for admission and seeing how many A&M will take beyond the theoretical number of 100% yield. Typically it's about 7-8k, or about 22-23k that get regular admission. A&M is shooting for 14k or so that actually enroll. It's a crazy system.

I've played both sides of this with my kids. My eldest was someone who dreamed of being an Aggie from birth. Between my wife and I and even moreso his Grandad he was about as brainwashed as you could be. Yet he was not an auto admit so he had to sweat it out until March before finally getting a System Admit. Fortunately he had already fallen in love with doing MART at Galveston and it ended up being the best thing, he's crushed it. Just got his 3rd straight Deans Honor Roll and will graduate early, yet he wasn't good enough for College Station.

Youngest is an exceptional student who will be an easy auto admit. He will have a ton of options and could get into a lot of schools. He's probably going to apply to no more than 7 or 8 though and maybe not that many. A few safeties, a few he has a strong chance with, a few reaches. Most likely he's coming to A&M because he loves it as well but going to look at a few options. Only looking at places though where he can at least envision himself there though. He's not going to apply to a bunch of schools just for the hell of it and to brag about it. If nothing else I don't know why someone would pay money for an app and spent the time on those applications just to brag about it. The level of narcissism is hard for me to grasp, it screams of insecurity. It's also gross because those schools have kids like my elder son that really, really want to go there and instead their admit gets sucked up by some kid on an ego trip.

Crazy, I only applied to 2 schools for undergrad, and 5 for grad school.

Personal opinion -> the common app is a problem. I think it is hurting more kids than it is helping, including the more disadvantaged kids that they are hoping to help the most.

bmks270 said:

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Crazy, I only applied to 2 schools for undergrad, and 5 for grad school.

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One and two for me, respectively.

A brief anecdote, but I think a fair one...

Browsing Facebook this week, I'm the age where my friends' kids are graduating. Lots of A&M, Ok State, Auburn, etc., and the next steps are listed - seminary, finance/accounting firm, the usual things that successful people do. My own daughter is getting a biochem degree from a small liberal arts college this fall and likely heading somewhere for a doctorate. Tulsa, where her sister goes, claims that 97% of their grads are either in grad school or working in a job in their field within 6 months of graduation. I believe it. Part of the student union is a huge career/placement center.

Meanwhile, several years ago I hired someone with a STEM degree. She went to a high end prep school, played D1 sports at Brown University, and I got her...through a temp agency. That's right. From the Ivy League to a placement agency. People at Texas State, Lamar, SHSU, etc., were finding jobs with STEM degrees, but the woman with the $300K degree was dumped unceremoniously into a temporary agency. She was a great employee, and of course she left after several years to go to grad school, just as anyone would have counseled her at Brown...if they had cared enough to provide the value they claim to offer.

94chem said:

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A brief anecdote, but I think a fair one...

Browsing Facebook this week, I'm the age where my friends' kids are graduating. Lots of A&M, Ok State, Auburn, etc., and the next steps are listed - seminary, finance/accounting firm, the usual things that successful people do. My own daughter is getting a biochem degree from a small liberal arts college this fall and likely heading somewhere for a doctorate. Tulsa, where her sister goes, claims that 97% of their grads are either in grad school or working in a job in their field within 6 months of graduation. I believe it. Part of the student union is a huge career/placement center.

Meanwhile, several years ago I hired someone with a STEM degree. She went to a high end prep school, played D1 sports at Brown University, and I got her...through a temp agency. That's right. From the Ivy League to a placement agency. People at Texas State, Lamar, SHSU, etc., were finding jobs with STEM degrees, but the woman with the $300K degree was dumped unceremoniously into a temporary agency. She was a great employee, and of course she left after several years to go to grad school, just as anyone would have counseled her at Brown...if they had cared enough to provide the value they claim to offer.

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Point made, but if she were a D-1 athlete, even at Brown, I would bet that her tuition was significantly reduced by scholarship, or that she was given needs based money. The other story here is that some other kid's parents were paying $300K to put their kid AND this woman through Brown.

Friend's daughter HS '24 got into Harvard. She picked Sam Houston over Harvard. Major is Criminology and she will have a great story. Who would fear a cop from Harvard?

Point is, it depends on your major.

Sounds like a good idea tbh

HECUBUS said:

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Friend's daughter HS '24 got into Harvard. She picked Sam Houston over Harvard. Major is Criminology and she will have a great story. Who would fear a cop from Harvard?

Point is, it depends on your major.

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Harvard is an over rated institution anyways!