I'm a 4.3 currently and did not start scoring much better until I found the fairway consistently off the tee. And that didn't happen until I got properly fit for a driver. The game is still hard but it sure is nice hitting from the short grass and not pitching out from the trees.

Keep hitting balls but also go play as much as you can. Good luck. As a pro once told me, "The principals of this game are simple. But the game itself is fcking maddening!"

I think improvement and how you go about it changes with how good you are. I think someone who is just picking up the game should most certainly work on getting off the tee and making good contact. As he/she improves to let's say a 20 hc, I think the biggest way to improve would be practicing 100 yards to the cup. Once said player reaches a 10 HC it then becomes the ability to score i.e. driving the ball well and puting balls in close proximity the hole. Now that the player is a 5 to scratch it becomes on how to get the ball into the hole for birdie opportunities and how to scramble for pars. I agree with the premise that every shot counts, but if we're talking specifically on how to improve your game as a 20 hc it's going to primarily be 100 yards and in( that is of course if you're a half way decent tee guy, even with a 5 iron.)

Everyone is ignoring the fact that people lose strokes in different areas.

If the OP is 4 putting, then work on that.

If they are losing 10+ strokes a round due to not finding the fairway, then work on that.

There is no right or wrong answer to which is better.

Its all relative to the individual and their current strengths/weaknesses.

I lose strokes from 130 in. Why? Because I haven't worked on my short game as diligently as other facets of my game...plus I go through about a gazillion putters per season.

On the other hand, someone at my same level on paper could have worked his tail off on 130 and in, but falls short in the facets of the game I'm better at.

For me, I'll lower my scores once I fully commit myself to practicing 130 and in. Much more-so than I will banging Driver/3-Wood/5-Wood at the range.

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I'm a 4.3 currently and did not start scoring much better until I found the fairway consistently off the tee. And that didn't happen until I got properly fit for a driver. The game is still hard but it sure is nice hitting from the short grass and not pitching out from the trees.

Keep hitting balls but also go play as much as you can. Good luck. As a pro once told me, "The principals of this game are simple. But the game itself is fcking maddening!"

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He bought his game!!!


I kid.

What JJ said.

For me, it's 100 yards in. That's where I lose strokes.

Johnny Miller when he was at his best...and perhaps best in the world during a short span of his career, there wasn't anyone better than him at 117 yards in.

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Most folks talk about shaving the most strokes in the short game.

I use to think that as well, but read the linked article on GolfWRX and think there's a lot of truth in GIR being the key.

Greens in Regulation

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Thanks for posting this.

It pretty much confirms my previous post/experience. Guess I'm not an anomaly.

oh man where to start. First - whomever said that the majority of strokes is short game for high handicappers is right, that doesn't mean it isn't for low handicappers. Shooting a 70-75 is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 putts, then several approaches < 100, so it still is > 50%.

My personal thoughts for higher handicappers:

1) Penalty strokes and 3 putts are things that really inflate your score. Avoid those.
2) Avoid penalty strokes by using good course management. Avoid 3 and 4 putting by learning to control distance control - note I did not say you have to be a great putter and make everything - just learn to control distance really well.
3) Don't short-side greens, and play the "proper miss" on most all shots
4) hit completely out of the trouble you are in. What I mean is...if in the sand - hit if 50 feet away from the hole on the other side of the green if you have to, but don't leave it in the sand. Same things with a short-sided chip, same thing with hitting over water, or over a tree. Do that first, then worry about proximity to the hole.

You should be able to lower your score pretty easily with good course management, its just that most people don't know what that is or think it doesn't matter with a higher handicap.

I have shot 67 hitting 11 greens in regulation and shot 75 hitting 16 greens in regulation, hence why I think short game/putting is a premium.

Responding to the above post about GIR - you are assuming that a higher GIR %age means lower scores. It doesn't - guaranteed you # of putts will increase as your GIR does, all other things being equal.

Thanks for the replys all..

My pre-shot routine is always the same. Line up mark/leaf/twig/blade of grass between ball and aiming point by standing behind the ball and using my club to line up my shot. Stand over ball with feet together, square up club face with mark on ground, get feet set, hit ball. I've found I'm much more accurate with my shots (at least GOING in the right direction) with this routine.

For an example of my crazy game take last night. I went to the range warmed up and proceeded to him my PW behind the 100yd green inside a 20ft circle 13/15 times, boom, boom, boom just every ball went where I wanted it too. 7I, similar results. Not quite as accurate but hitting the ball well. As I moved up in irons/hybrids results OK, but not as good as the lower clubs. Which I expect (the lower clubs are easier to hit). I finish with my driver, which I do hit OK most of the time, but sometimes get to far behind and push it right/fade the ball (not a slice, it just starts right and fades).

Since the local course has a $1/hole after 6:30 and free cart for patrons, I decide to go play. Nail my first drive 290 yards according to swing by swing (I mean I nutted that thing, over a sand trap ~250 and rolled forever on the hard ground). So I'm 200 out which is 3H range for me, except the flag is right with a bunker on that side guarding the flag. I know I cannot land soft enough to stay on the green, and more likely I'll land it short and roll it into the sand. Rather than risk an errant shot, I decide to hit my 5I a little left to give me a cleaner shot at flag with my 56W. I proceed to toe it and hook it way left into the rough ugg.. Get to the ball and its not so bad, I can still get on from there in 3 and have a chance at birdie/par. I then hit it on the toe of my wedge, only this time I leave it way open and it flops in front of the green. Awesome, lying 3 and still not on. Hit it again, nice shot ~15 feet out. 2-putt for bogie.

So here I have a great drive, totally fubar'd by an errant 5I shot, and a flop wedge costing myself at least one stroke.

Lots of holes like that. Good drives or OK drive peppered with errant iron shots here and there. Throw in the 1 or 2 drives I push into the trees and the strokes added up fast. It seems I'll string together some good holes, then just fall apart for 2 or 3.

Swing by Swing says my average for the year is;

Par 3 = 4.3 avg

Par 4 = 5.2 avg

Par 5 = 6.6 avg

2.2 putts per hole

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Nail my first drive 290 yards according to swing by swing (I mean I nutted that thing, over a sand trap ~250 and rolled forever on the hard ground). So I'm 200 out which is 3H range for me, except the flag is right with a bunker on that side guarding the flag. I know I cannot land soft enough to stay on the green, and more likely I'll land it short and roll it into the sand. Rather than risk an errant shot, I decide to hit my 5I a little left to give me a cleaner shot at flag with my 56W. I proceed to toe it and hook it way left into the rough ugg.. Get to the ball and its not so bad, I can still get on from there in 3 and have a chance at birdie/par. I then hit it on the toe of my wedge, only this time I leave it way open and it flops in front of the green. Awesome, lying 3 and still not on. Hit it again, nice shot ~15 feet out. 2-putt for bogie.

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What do you hit better, 100 yards full swing or 20 - 30 yard SW partial pitch?

I ask because I personally have a better chance of getting up and down from 100 yards with a full swing with SW or GAP...than 30 - 50 yard pitch from hard pan. Today.

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I ask because I personally have a better chance of getting up and down from 100 yards with a full swing with SW or GAP...than 30 - 50 yard pitch from hard pan. Today.

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I would bet a good chunk of money this is not true. It just feels that way. The old "layup to a comfortable distance" myth.

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I ask because I personally have a better chance of getting up and down from 100 yards with a full swing with SW or GAP...than 30 - 50 yard pitch from hard pan. Today.

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I would bet a good chunk of money this is not true. It just feels that way. The old "layup to a comfortable distance" myth.

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Except you don't know my game.

And if I put 10 balls 100 yards from the pin and 10 balls lined up 30 yards to 50 yards with 2 yd increment, I promise you, I will have a lower score from 100 yards with 10 balls...purposely or not.. and you'll never know.

You'd lose your good chunk of money real fast. Just saying.

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I ask because I personally have a better chance of getting up and down from 100 yards with a full swing with SW or GAP...than 30 - 50 yard pitch from hard pan. Today.

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I would bet a good chunk of money this is not true. It just feels that way. The old "layup to a comfortable distance" myth.

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Except you don't know my game.

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You're right, I don't. I do know that many others have thought the exact same and been proven wrong by math. You could be the exception, I'd just bet you aren't. I make lots of bets I lose. Luckily I win more often.

Dave Pelz says otherwise.

http://www.golf.com/instruction/master-awkward-distance-pitch-shots

40 yard is the worst shot in golf.

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40 yard is the worst shot in golf.

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I hit one yesterday ~55 yards from a front center pin. Tried to get cute with the shot...flight it low...and hop and stop it with my 58*. It never got to the hop part because I caught me some chunky action. Ended up as a Bogey.

Next hole was a Par 3...pulled a 54*...took a full swing...got it within 10 feet...and made the Birdie putt.

Long story short is I'd much rather have a full swing shot because my partial swings around the green need work.

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Dave Pelz says otherwise.

http://www.golf.com/instruction/master-awkward-distance-pitch-shots

40 yard is the worst shot in golf.

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But he doesn't say it's harder to get close than 100. He measures distance from home to distance missed. By that measure it is hard but you still get it closer.

That's why I say people think 100 is easier. They remember the times they birdie or save par. You expect to do it from closer and often are having to scramble to save par and get bogey or worse, so the perception is you are worse.

By Pelz's math being 8 yards from 40 is the same as 20 from 100. I'll take the 40 shot any day.

For me it was really tightening up the wedge game. Short game yes, but really on 50-100 yard shots that weren't full swing and required control. Also, the driver was a huge weakness for me. I can hit it 300+ regularly, but that doesn't mean **** when I'm fanning it out to the right or double crossing when trying to cut it. It's good to be able to move the ball both directions, but there's always one shot you should be able to count on even on a bad day.

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Dave Pelz says otherwise.

http://www.golf.com/instruction/master-awkward-distance-pitch-shots

40 yard is the worst shot in golf.

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By Pelz's math being 8 yards from 40 is the same as 20 from 100. I'll take the 40 shot any day.

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"and 25-handicappers an incredible 50 percent error (where the ball finishes either halfway to the hole or halfway past)."

Except you as a self proclaimed 23 handicapper, you're going to be 20 yards away from the hole on 40 yard shots not 8 yards. Of course you'd take that 8 yard variance. Except...even Pros only average 6 yards away from the pin while 10 handicaps are at 10 yards. And if I'm 10 yards off on a 100 yard shot, I have hit a bad shot.

Sure, I'm not great from that distance but I'm still way bette than from 100.

I would bet $1000 you can't get over 50% from 100 yards within 30 feet from varying locations.

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Sure, I'm not great from that distance but I'm still way bette than from 100.

I would bet $1000 you can't get over 50% from 100 yards within 30 feet from varying locations.

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And I will bet you $10,000 that I can't get over 50% from 30 to 50 yards within 30 feet from a hard pan lie with my 56 degree SW with 12 degree bounce or 60 degree with 8 degrees of bounce. Bring your check book.

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Sure, I'm not great from that distance but I'm still way bette than from 100.

I would bet $1000 you can't get over 50% from 100 yards within 30 feet from varying locations.

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And I will bet you $10,000 that I can't get over 50% from 30 to 50 yards within 30 feet from a hard pan lie with my 56 degree SW with 12 degree bounce or 60 degree with 8 degrees of bounce. Bring your check book.

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It's pretty easy to fail at something so I'd never bet against someone who can fail to win. That said, using only a 56 or 60 is probably part of your problem.

I'm a bit of a math nerd. My intent isn't to puss people off. But, in all sports common perception is often wrong. In baseball it's about bunting. In football it's about 4th down conversions. In golf around the importance of chipping and putting. There are outliers, but most of us aren't outliers and like pointing out the fallacies.

so have we decided the short game is important or not?

Important but not as much as the tee to green game. The math has been done.

The math has also been done on the "should i lay up to 100 or hit it to 50?" Getting the ball closer results in lower scores. You may feel more comfortable with the 100 yard shot, and in the grand scheme of evaluating shots, may hit higher quality shots from 100. But by hook or crook, the 50 yard shots end up closer to the hole more often and lead to lower scores.

I'd say the 'putting is more important' stance can be easily supported by the direct impact on the final score of a hole.

For example, if I make an 8 footer to save a par... I immediately save 1 stroke off my score by making that putt. There is nothing else to be done on that hole.

If I hit a great drive... Its hard to gauge exactly how many strokes that saved b/c I still have plenty of chances to screw up and so the end score may not directly show. However, if i hit it OB, its easy to see how many strokes that added to the hole as well.

Bottom line, just suck less at all of it. If you really suck in one part, stop sucking so much.

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I'd say the 'putting is more important' stance can be easily supported by the direct impact on the final score of a hole.

For example, if I make an 8 footer to save a par... I immediately save 1 stroke off my score by making that putt. There is nothing else to be done on that hole.

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I could say driving is more important.

Hit a bad drive and you are re-teeing for stroke and distance.

Miss the 8 footer and I don't have a penalty stroke.

I guess I wasn't saying putting is more important... but rather that once you putt out... you can't screw up the hole any more... so the stroke is directly and immediately saved. If you hit a great drive... you still have many chances to top it into a bunker, or blade it over a green, or 3 putt from 12 feet.... so you don't know that you saved a shot off your final score or not. You put yourself in a better position, but there is still more work to be done. If you hit it OB, you obviously cost yourself 2 strokes (as I stated above)... so that sucks... don't do that.

Of course Spieth has huge advantage over golfer that shoots 100 in every category. And biggest plus is in iron shots. Then driver. And short game has least amount of strokes gained.

But this perfect example of people reading stats correctly but not knowing how to interpret them. Or not asking the second and more important question.

The guy shooting 100 should practice everything. But he should focus on short game. Putting, chipping, and simple pitching. It's a question of efficiency.

With a 1 hour lesson on chipping and pitching, the weekend hacker will show IMMEDIATE improvement. It's a simple lesson. Still have to practice it. But a few basic pointers will instantly shave strokes off the terrible golfer's score.

Same with putting. The 30 handicapper is throwing away tons of shots on the green. Practicing putting, especially distance control will pay immediate dividends.

Marked and permanent improvement in the full swing, especially long shots, takes time. A lot of time. No doubt, this will be the biggest strokes gained. But you aren't going to get immediate improvement.

Very good points that haven't been made. Agree.

This may have been posted before, but this kind of sums it up:

http://www.topendsports.com/sport/golf/important.htm

The way I think about it is this:

120+ golfer: work on hitting a clean tee shot and keeping the ball in play (just getting around the course).

100 golfer: chipping and putting can shave a chunk of strokes off your score.

90s golfer: placing your drive and hitting the greens from 135 out.

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Important but not as much as the tee to green game. The math has been done.

The math has also been done on the "should i lay up to 100 or hit it to 50?" Getting the ball closer results in lower scores. You may feel more comfortable with the 100 yard shot, and in the grand scheme of evaluating shots, may hit higher quality shots from 100. But by hook or crook, the 50 yard shots end up closer to the hole more often and lead to lower scores.

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Well Hell.... That settles it. Then from now on, I will not lay up to 100 yds...instead, I will always try to get as close to the green, forget that troubles are mostly near the green but who cares. 250 yards out... I'm swinging my 3W over the trees, hazard areas, bunkers, creeks, rivers, lakes and ponds. And no consideration should be given that I can hit 150 yards more accurately than 250 yards.

If math is important, then let's not forget that probability is math too.

Why don't Pros always go for the green on short par 4s?

Why did Jack throttle back on drives and use 3W?

If you say score from 40 yards is better than 100 yards, then have they looked at the score from 300 yards out using 2 different approaches? Say... someone laying up to 100 yards using 3 iron vs. swinging out of shoes using 3W trying to get within 50 yards? Which method yields a lower scoring average? I haven't read the stats you're using. But if the data only looks at that perfectly placed shot that's 50 yards away from the pin vs. 100 yards, then they need to also look at the shot before it.

Using your logic, on a 300 yard par 4, everyone should strive to drive the green. But we don't. Because there are trouble everywhere near the green. I'm better off scaling back to 3 iron 200 yards then 3W or Driver into trouble.

Playing golf is more than just simple math.

Obviously, there are sometimes other factors that play into the risk and decision on specific shots, but on the whole, it's a dumb move to lay up to 100 if the #1 motivation of your decision is that you like hitting your SW. That was my point. Dave Pelz would tell you the same.

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Obviously, there are sometimes other factors that play into the risk and decision on specific shots, but on the whole, it's a dumb move to lay up to 100 if the #1 motivation of your decision is that you like hitting your SW. That was my point. Dave Pelz would tell you the same.

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Unfortunately there are other factors in every shot of golf. Not just sometimes. And if you like 50 yard shot off Hard Pan? By all means, you da man.

You don't lay up to 100 yd because you like hitting SW. You lay up to 100 yd because it avoids trouble and also prevents having to hit an inaccurate partial shot.

It's called playing to your strength, not a dumb move. And Dave Pelz would say play to your strength.

Let's look at how this conversation started from Agracer. From your readings/logic, Agracer should have gone for it with 3H. Instead he scaled it back with a 5 iron only to get in trouble...then proceeded to miss the partial wedge shot. If he'd hit a poor shot with 3H, he would have been in a deeper trouble, My simple question was...for this scenario, would have have been better off laying back to 100? Obviously the counter point is he could have gotten in trouble with Wedge Wedge 100 yard shots.. but probability says less likely than 5 iron or 3H.

Then y'all got your panties in a wad.

Whatever the book y'all read.. screw it. Just like Hogan's 5 Fundamentals...great book.. if you hook.



"Nail my first drive 290 yards according to swing by swing (I mean I nutted that thing, over a sand trap ~250 and rolled forever on the hard ground). So I'm 200 out which is 3H range for me, except the flag is right with a bunker on that side guarding the flag. I know I cannot land soft enough to stay on the green, and more likely I'll land it short and roll it into the sand. Rather than risk an errant shot, I decide to hit my 5I a little left to give me a cleaner shot at flag with my 56W. I proceed to toe it and hook it way left into the rough ugg.. Get to the ball and its not so bad, I can still get on from there in 3 and have a chance at birdie/par. I then hit it on the toe of my wedge, only this time I leave it way open and it flops in front of the green. Awesome, lying 3 and still not on. Hit it again, nice shot ~15 feet out. 2-putt for bogie.

So here I have a great drive, totally fubar'd by an errant 5I shot, and a flop wedge costing myself at least one stroke. "