Who was the last great catcher?

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6:15p, 8/2/16
AG
In light of the the Rangers getting Lucroy (who is a good catcher, don't get me wrong), I started to think about truly 'great' catchers. Guys who had amazing arms, could bat .290 plus, and/or hit 20+ homers a year. And do that over multiple seasons.

Have we had any of them since Pudge and Posada?

Is the position not just regarded as highly as it used to be? Maybe it was because I played little league in Arlington, but I always considered the catcher the premier position behind the pitcher (FIFY protected)
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gigem1223
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6:24p, 8/2/16
Yadier Molina and Buster Posey come to mind
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cone
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6:31p, 8/2/16
AG
Joe Mauer?

He had a 32 WAR from 04 to 10

better than Posada's best stretch
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corleoneAg99
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6:33p, 8/2/16
AG
Mauer
Posada
Kendall
Martin

Then Yadi and Buster. All top 20 WAR guys since 1960. Mauer currently #9. Yadi and Buster round out top 20.
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W
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6:47p, 8/2/16
AG
the golden era of catchers was probably the mid-to-late 70's...

Bench, Fisk, and Carter...Hall of Famers

Simmons and Munson...perennial all-stars.

also Manny Sanguillen has some good years in that era too with the Pirates

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Sapper Redux
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7:34p, 8/2/16
If you're looking at the whole picture, as in their ability to call a game, then catchers like Jason Varitek were mediocre hitters but excellent catchers.
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Dock
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9:06p, 8/2/16
Piazza was ridiculous.

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94chem
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9:14a, 8/3/16
Bob Boone and Jim Sundberg were the 2 great catchers of the 70's and 80's that mostly fly under the radar.
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CorpsAg11
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In reply to Dock • 9:16a, 8/3/16
AG
quote:
Piazza was ridiculous.

Not a great defensive catcher though
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CorpsAg11
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9:17a, 8/3/16
AG
Posada was not an all time great, that's just the Yankees media machine controlling your mind. Same with jeter.
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astros4545
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9:56a, 8/3/16
AG
Pudge piazza and steroids
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corleoneAg99
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10:19a, 8/3/16
AG
I hate the Yankees as much as anyone but Posada is top 15 all time in WAR and 10th in offensive WAR.

He was pretty great.
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Capt_Crunch 14
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In reply to CorpsAg11 • 11:51a, 8/3/16
AG
Your Yankee hate is clouding your judgement here. Posada is definitely a top 20 or better all time catcher.

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CorpsAg11
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In reply to Capt_Crunch 14 • 1:30p, 8/3/16
AG
quote:
Your Yankee hate is clouding your judgement here. Posada is definitely a top 20 or better all time catcher.

Hah maybe so. I could see him being a top 20 offensive catcher, especially b/c catcher is a position from which great offensive production is not expected. But he was not a great defender (some would say he was really bad actually) and he wasn't great at catching base stealers. He was the 3rd best catcher of his era behind Piazza (who was enough of an offensive juggernaut to overcome avg D) and Pudge.

He is not a HOF'er in my book because his offensive production at any other position than catcher would not warrant a spot and he didn't make a good catcher.
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Squirrel Master
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1:58p, 8/3/16
AG
The answer to the question is Buster Posey currently. At this very moment, a future HOF catcher is in his prime.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to CorpsAg11 • 2:08p, 8/3/16
AG
quote:
Posada was not an all time great, that's just the Yankees media machine controlling your mind. Same with jeter.
I agree about Posada not being an all-time great, but come on, Jeter? The guy is 6th all-time in hits. You don't rack up 3,400+ hits if you aren't an all-time great. He also did it in fewer years than everyone surrounding him on the list. You have to go to 17th (Paul Waner) to find someone w/ only 20 years of experience. Plus he had 5 Gold Gloves and was ROY.
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PacifistAg
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2:10p, 8/3/16
AG
I'd say post-Pudge, the only "great" all-around catchers have been Yadier Molina, Posey, and Mauer.
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CorpsAg11
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In reply to PacifistAg • 2:41p, 8/3/16
AG
quote:
quote:
Posada was not an all time great, that's just the Yankees media machine controlling your mind. Same with jeter.
I agree about Posada not being an all-time great, but come on, Jeter? The guy is 6th all-time in hits. You don't rack up 3,400+ hits if you aren't an all-time great. He also did it in fewer years than everyone surrounding him on the list. You have to go to 17th (Paul Waner) to find someone w/ only 20 years of experience. Plus he had 5 Gold Gloves and was ROY.
Jeter should be in the HOF but he is criminally overrated because he was a Yankee. He had a lot of hits, but had little power and mostly hit singles so his OPS was always meh. People think of him as a great defensive SS when really he was below avg and had terrible range. There's no doubt guys like him and David Ortiz will be first ballot HOF'ers while guys like Bagwell, who is way more deserving, may just sneak in.

But back to the catchers
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KT 90
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2:51p, 8/3/16
AG
Did I just read that Jeff Bagwell is more deserving of the HOF than Derek Jeter? I'm not exactly a Yankee fan either, but wow.

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TXAggie2011
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In reply to CorpsAg11 • 3:12p, 8/3/16
AG
quote:
Jeter should be in the HOF but he is criminally overrated because he was a Yankee. He had a lot of hits, but had little power and mostly hit singles so his OPS was always meh. People think of him as a great defensive SS when really he was below avg and had terrible range. There's no doubt guys like him and David Ortiz will be first ballot HOF'ers while guys like Bagwell, who is way more deserving, may just sneak in.
Absurd. And not because I think Jeter was a great defensive shortstop.
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simongalicia
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3:18p, 8/3/16
AG
YADI YADI YADI
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CorpsAg11
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In reply to KT 90 • 3:40p, 8/3/16
AG
quote:
Did I just read that Jeff Bagwell is more deserving of the HOF than Derek Jeter? I'm not exactly a Yankee fan either, but wow.

Jeff Bagwell had a higher career WAR and more RBIs in 15 seasons than Derek Jeter had in 20 seasons. So yes, you did hear that.

School'd.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to CorpsAg11 • 3:42p, 8/3/16
AG

quote:
There's no doubt guys like him and David Ortiz will be first ballot HOF'ers while guys like Bagwell, who is way more deserving, may just sneak in.
Uh, Bagwell more deserving of the HOF than Jeter? A slugger that didn't really get close to any of the major milestones one would expect, especially in the steroid era, is more deserving than the guy w/ 3,400 career hits? Jeter would have won more than 5 Gold Gloves had he not played at the same time as 9-time GG winner, Omar Vizquel, and A-Rod when he was an elite SS.

That's not even considering his clutch postseason performances (Bagwell OPS: .685; Jeter OPS: .838). There's nobody in baseball that would ever claim Bagwell is more deserving than Jeter. It's not because he was a Yankee. It's because the guy was better.
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TXAggie2011
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3:47p, 8/3/16
AG
If Jeff Bagwell didn't have more RBIs than a lead-off hitter then this conversation would already be over in favor of Derek Jeter.

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Dock
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3:48p, 8/3/16
Molina looks too much like a lesbian
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CorpsAg11
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In reply to PacifistAg • 3:49p, 8/3/16
AG
Jeter deserved zero gold gloves. He only got those 5 because his jump throws would always make Sportscenter (which were only necessary b/c of his terrible range). His career dWAR is negative.
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TXAggie2011
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In reply to CorpsAg11 • 3:50p, 8/3/16
AG
quote:
Jeter deserved zero gold gloves. He only got those 5 because his jump throws would always make Sportscenter (which were only necessary b/c of his terrible range). His career dWAR is negative.
Actually, he had some pretty good defensive seasons arguably deserving of some Gold Glove discussion.

Its the same thing about Michael Young with the Rangers. People are displeased with the gold glove(s) but fail to realize they can't impute their career defensive numbers to every season.


And Jeff Bagwell was hardly a historically great defender, either. Career defensive WAR also clearly in the negative.
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CorpsAg11
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In reply to TXAggie2011 • 3:50p, 8/3/16
AG
quote:
If Jeff Bagwell didn't have more RBIs than a lead-off hitter then this conversation would already be over in favor of Derek Jeter.

What about the WAR?? Please explain...

Oh and Jeff also had 202 steals in 15 seasons compared to LEAD OFF MAN Jeter's 358 steals in 20 seasons..
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FW Declerk
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3:51p, 8/3/16
Gary Carter
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PacifistAg
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In reply to CorpsAg11 • 3:54p, 8/3/16
AG

quote:
but had little power and mostly hit singles so his OPS was always meh
Jeter had a lower % of singles compared to his other hits than Pete Rose, plus had a higher OPS. So, your logic says Bagwell >>> Jeter >>> Rose then, right?
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PacifistAg
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3:59p, 8/3/16
AG
Bagwell vs Jeter is a great example of how cherry picking stats can be made to say anything. Of course, there really is no "Bagwell vs Jeter" debate, as nobody around baseball....NOBODY....would say Bagwell is a more deserving HOFer than Jeter.

Should Bagwell get in? I guess. I don't have an issue with him making it, but he's rightly not a 1st ballot guy. Jeter is and it isn't even close. And it's not because he was a Yankee. Had he played for KC all those years and racked up 3,400+ hits, he'd still be a 1st ballot guy. The fact that he did it in NY w/ all the pressure there, while not only winning title after title, but being one of the most clutch postseason players ever, is just that much more amazing.
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TXAggie2011
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In reply to CorpsAg11 • 4:00p, 8/3/16
AG
quote:
quote:
If Jeff Bagwell didn't have more RBIs than a lead-off hitter then this conversation would already be over in favor of Derek Jeter.

What about the WAR?? Please explain...

Oh and Jeff also had 202 steals in 15 seasons compared to LEAD OFF MAN Jeter's 358 steals in 20 seasons..
And yet Jeter averaged over 20 steals a season while Bagwell averaged about 15.

Both averaged 6 CS a season.



In Bagwell's 14 full seasons he had a WAR of about 79 while in a 14 year stretch from his rookie year to 2009, Jeter had one of about 68.

Yes, Bagwell had an average WAR a little less than 1 win a game over those 14 year comparisons.

I guess I don't think WAR alone doesn't define this argument---nor define comparisons between any two players.
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CorpsAg11
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In reply to PacifistAg • 4:01p, 8/3/16
AG
quote:

quote:
but had little power and mostly hit singles so his OPS was always meh
Jeter had a lower % of singles compared to his other hits than Pete Rose, plus had a higher OPS. So, your logic says Bagwell >>> Jeter >>> Rose then, right?
Maybe if that's the only argument I presented but Rose also has a higher WAR than both men. They should all be in the HOF but it should be Rose then Bags then Jeter then Ortiz. JK.. Ortiz shouldn't be in.
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TXAggie2011
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4:04p, 8/3/16
AG
Ortiz should absolutely be in the Hall of Fame.
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TXAggie2011
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4:06p, 8/3/16
AG
So should Bagwell, I'm not saying otherwise.
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