Is that so? I thought only Catholics and orthodox needed to earn their salvation
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When I converted I felt like my understanding of salvation had become significantly more nuanced. I think many evangelists stand theologically back-to-back with the orthodox. They focus on the point up to becoming a Christian. Most of orthodoxy is spent on life in the faith after that point. Much of the difficulty in language between the two groups is because each thinks the other is talking about the part they're looking at.
For many Protestant sects becoming a Christian is the end of their soteriology. For the Orthodox it is the beginning.
The idea of "salvation" is dramatically different between the two as well.
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One of the things that attracted me to our church is that they organize their messages, sermons, and frankly the entire church on the premise that nearly everyone in there is already a Christian and has actually reads and studies on their own, rather than a non-chrisian or "baby" christian.
When I return to the church I grew up at... I'm generally bored because they seem to orient themselves to those 1 or 2 visitors who has no idea what any of this is about.
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When I converted I felt like my understanding of salvation had become significantly more nuanced. I think many evangelists stand theologically back-to-back with the orthodox. They focus on the point up to becoming a Christian. Most of orthodoxy is spent on life in the faith after that point. Much of the difficulty in language between the two groups is because each thinks the other is talking about the part they're looking at.
For many Protestant sects becoming a Christian is the end of their soteriology. For the Orthodox it is the beginning.
The idea of "salvation" is dramatically different between the two as well.
Agreed!Quote:
I also think that evangelical churches spend far too much time racing people to the baptistery and forgetting about them after that.
This is actually very similar to the way John Wesley writes about salvation. While Wesley (and Methodism to answer the OP) believes that only faith through grace is required for salvation, the bulk of his writings on salvation, faith, and grace are about what happens after justification. His main focus in discussing salvation is holiness and sanctification, not just justification. Salvation, to Wesley, was not a one-time individual event, but the personal and social act of God through God's church.Quote:
When I converted I felt like my understanding of salvation had become significantly more nuanced. I think many evangelists stand theologically back-to-back with the orthodox. They focus on the point up to becoming a Christian. Most of orthodoxy is spent on life in the faith after that point. Much of the difficulty in language between the two groups is because each thinks the other is talking about the part they're looking at.
For many Protestant sects becoming a Christian is the end of their soteriology. For the Orthodox it is the beginning.
The idea of "salvation" is dramatically different between the two as well.
RetiredAg said:Agreed!Quote:
I also think that evangelical churches spend far too much time racing people to the baptistery and forgetting about them after that.
Having those things is great, but often I fail to see churches pressing their members to participate. I've seen far too many who are content with members showing up Sunday mornings and that's it.Frok said:RetiredAg said:Agreed!Quote:
I also think that evangelical churches spend far too much time racing people to the baptistery and forgetting about them after that.
How so? Most churches have life groups, bible studies, counseling, outreach activities, mission trips, etc. What do you think the church needs to do?
I think this is true. It happens in conversations with non-christian or non-religious people as well. We talk past each other because we have different conceptions of what we mean by "God".k2aggie07 said:
Much of the difficulty in language between the two groups is because each thinks the other is talking about the part they're looking at.
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How so? Most churches have life groups, bible studies, counseling, outreach activities, mission trips, etc. What do you think the church needs to do?
I'm not sure I agree with your first statement. As I said, praxis is an outflow from theology. You are more or less suggesting that disparate soteriology is irrelevant to the believer... But it should follow that our actions are a direct reflections of our beliefs about soteriology. Why else would we bother? We do what we do because we are trying to work out our salvation. We come to Christ and ask "what must I do to be saved?". If the answer is different, our actions would be as well.diehard03 said:Quote:
When I converted I felt like my understanding of salvation had become significantly more nuanced. I think many evangelists stand theologically back-to-back with the orthodox. They focus on the point up to becoming a Christian. Most of orthodoxy is spent on life in the faith after that point. Much of the difficulty in language between the two groups is because each thinks the other is talking about the part they're looking at.
For many Protestant sects becoming a Christian is the end of their soteriology. For the Orthodox it is the beginning.
The idea of "salvation" is dramatically different between the two as well.
The cool part is that our actions shouldn't be any different regardless of our view on salvation: Follow Christ. I also think that evangelical churches spend far too much time racing people to the baptistery and forgetting about them after that.
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At some point, your faith formation falls largely on you.
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Following Christ will have as many different definitions as there are variants in soteriology, I think.
I don't believe I agree. Having been both baptist and Orthodox, the how is very different.diehard03 said:Quote:
Following Christ will have as many different definitions as there are variants in soteriology, I think.
I am oversimplifying "actions" by saying that the action is to follow Christ. Whether you believe OSAS or not, your action is still the same: Follow Christ.
Yes, we can bicker on the "how", but I dont know that everyone's "how" changes that much. From what I see, Orthodox, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran...even dirty non-denoms...following Jesus looks the same: sacrifice for others, generous beyond societal accepted levels, prayer, serving, etc. Maybe we rank things differently, but I dont' know how important that is.
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I don't believe I agree.
To me it is interesting that St Peter tells us to apply diligence to things that are both actions and attributes. Then he says they are qualities that should increase -- not actions that should increase, but attributes. Actions and attributes become blurred.Quote:
His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness [orthopraxis], through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence [orthodoxy]. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises [orthopraxis], so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature [literal result of orthopraxis], having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust [salvation]. Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence [orthopraxis], in your faith [orthodoxy] supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge [orthodoxy], and in your knowledge, self-control [orthopraxis], and in your self-control, perseverance [orthopraxis], and in your perseverance, godliness [orthopraxis], and in your godliness, brotherly kindness [orthopraxis], and in your brotherly kindness, love [salvation]. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge [orthodoxy] of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent [orthoparxis] to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things [orthopraxis], you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you [salvation].
Therefore, I will always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them , and have been established in the truth which is present with you [orthodoxy].
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Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its practices, and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him...
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It really only makes sense that right belief would lead to right action.
And that wrong belief would lead to wrong action.
And that if right action follows accidentally from wrong belief, that doesn't mean it doesn't matter whether we have right belief or not.
RetiredAg said:Having those things is great, but often I fail to see churches pressing their members to participate. I've seen far too many who are content with members showing up Sunday mornings and that's it.Frok said:RetiredAg said:Agreed!Quote:
I also think that evangelical churches spend far too much time racing people to the baptistery and forgetting about them after that.
How so? Most churches have life groups, bible studies, counseling, outreach activities, mission trips, etc. What do you think the church needs to do?
Have you ever read Wesley's encounter with the Moravian missionaries in the midst of a storm? It's awesome.UTExan said:
She is as stupid as XXXX. John Wesley was convinced of salvation by grace through faith after reading Luther's commentary on the book of Romans. She is the left wing version of Mormonism.