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It's just the same argument we always hear: "They're equal, but the man's in charge!" It's BS, but whatever, it's not what the OP asked about.

Maybe he should've tagged the OP with an (A) to prevent this hijacking.

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I move to tag all atheists only points as ( )o( ), it's a special sign I invented for you guys.

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This is when people's modern ears and warning bells go off, but they really shouldn't -- because I think when done in a true Christian way the male's leadership and the womans' submission wind up being indistinguishable to an outside observer.

When people are first learning to dance, or are dancing with a new or unfamiliar partner, or to a new routine, one person must be the leader. A good dancer can lead his partner without anyone watching being able to tell, and the partner will feel it more as flow than pull or jerks. And when people are dancing with familiar partners or with routines they know well, this same flow becomes second nature and a complete partnership and unity.

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Where this falls flat is the insistence on male leadership. If what you say is true, then it's completely irrelevant who leads. This is like say "Separate but equal is totally fine. I mean, our sinks are both the same condition! If there was no "whites only" sign over this sink you wouldn't be able to tell! But, Separate but equal is very important and we need to keep it".

All you do is default to "psychological and physiological" differences...most of which is just hiding behind "well, I can't have babies, I need to do something!" and basic socialization.

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This is marriage. But, just like dancing, you can't have two leaders.

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A marriage is exactly that: 2 leaders that become one. We make it harder than it has to be. You don't have to just say one is the leader over the other.

Where did I insist on male leadership? It is completely irrelevant who leads. What matters is that it works. This is why both have crowns in the ceremony, if you will.

I default to physiological and psychological differences because they are real and exist. You are gonna have a bad time if you try to change physiology by socialiation.

Your last statement is exactly correct, two become one.

All that being said, there are differences between men and women, and these play out in relationship dynamics. Like I said, the exception doesn't disprove the rule, and the rule doesn't invalidate the exception.

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Where did I insist on male leadership? It is completely irrelevant who leads. What matters is that it works. This is why both have crowns in the ceremony, if you will.

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Right here: "In this regard, I think that I would describe the optimal or best role of them to be that men lead and women submit."

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I default to physiological and psychological differences because they are real and exist. You are gonna have a bad time if you try to change physiology by socialiation.

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Come on, don't be silly. The baby comment spoke to physiology and socialization spoke to psychology

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Your last statement is exactly correct, two become one.

All that being said, there are differences between men and women, and these play out in relationship dynamics. Like I said, the exception doesn't disprove the rule, and the rule doesn't invalidate the exception.

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You keep saying there's no male leadership, but then you keep undermining it by going back to these traditional role/definitions. What rule and what exceptions are specifically referring to here? Is the women leading the exception?

That's my fault - poor phrasing. It should say "in light of these differences, I think that generally the best role would be that men lead and women submit". For me there's no difference in saying generally it's better for men to do physical labor and for women to be caregivers. But, there are men who are excellent caregivers to children and there are women who would be much better laborers than me.

I think that women leading will be the exception, yes.

It's difficult because you can chart things like strength - its easy to show that generally the slowest male marathoners or swimmers are faster than the fastest female counterparts (olympics gave a lesson on that). It's much harder to chart things like 'assertiveness' or 'aggression'. I do think that there are some aspects to psychology that are tightly linked to sex and others that are learned. You can watch mens vs womens soccer or basketball and see the differences between them not only in how they play physically but also emotionally and strategically.

This is why I don't think it's really anyone's business but that couple to say what is or isn't right. But by the same token, I don't see a problem with saying generally speaking, this will be the case.

Can I kindly ask that this thread be closed to future gender roles in the household comments. I really do want specific advice and it's getting crowded out. I think it's an interesting topic that should be started, and I would participate in that thread.

Is there some way you could maybe go with her a little while until she establishes a bit of a network somewhere, then taper off your involvement? Kind of the Ross from Friends "Hug and Roll" approach?

Yes, of course. There's probably a mix of a few things going on that are muddying my thinking:

1. A genuine desire to do things together as a couple, especially something that is as valuable to her as religion. For what it's worth, she's never asked, put pressure on me, or anything like that to go. It would a gesture that is not expected or required, but highly appreciated.
2. No real sense of hurt or anger from church. The only bad experiences I have had in churches were in Texas (sorry y'all). In SoCal I've rarely/never heard a sermon that couldn't be twisted to have an uplifting and worthwhile meaning on a secular level. I would feel much less inclined to sit through a sermon series on the doctrinal values of spousal submission, or churches with regular "What Ned Did" messages.
3. Lingering guilt for not conforming to the expectations from my childhood. My non-attendance is an elephant in the room for my family and the in-laws rather, but still felt nonetheless.

ETA:
4. Religion's primacy and meaning in my life. In the past year, I've twice been in the room to witness a grandmother pass. In the days/hours leading up, a capella hymns (Church of Christ) were played in the rooms or sung together to comfort my grandmothers. Those songs were incredibly touching on a very primal level, to the point where I still tear up a little bit listening to "Old Rugged Cross" or "How Great Thou Art." Rituals are meaningful to me.

The cons against church:
1. Can be boring.
2. I don't believe
3. Sometimes hear messages that are contrary to my values.
4. Don't necessarily want my kids to have the same spiritual baggage as I do if they eventually leave.
5. I don't want to form relationships with people that are assumed to come from a place of spiritual compatibility. Them: "Hey, it's really great to meet other Christian / Catholic families in the area. It's so hard to find people that blah blah blah. We have a Wednesday night Bible study..." Me: Well....

Forgot to give you a proper lolz for Faith + 1 reference.

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Forgot to give you a proper lolz for Faith + 1 reference.

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That episode was so perfect.

Just curious, how does that future look for her? I mean...just because she's never asked or pressured doesn't mean she doesn't have some hope or small expectation for "someday".

I personally wouldn't go to a church I didn't find theological meaning in. There are way better things to do on Sunday than listen to a sermon, and I've always kind of felt like my presence was at least a nod to approval. So personally speaking I can't see myself doing it without the sole reason being your #1 point above, and even then I'd feel uncomfortable with it.

#3, you just have to get over. I have the same family pressure for not being baptist - it's not productive, it doesn't help you... so ditch it. Let them judge, if that's what they want to do. It can be a drag.

#4 I don't really understand. Isn't that just an output or result of #4 and #5 on your cons list?

I am not sure why #5 is very relevant. Presumably my church is full of people that are spiritually compatibile with me... but I'm not friends with all (or even very many) of them. I guess it can make for an awkward conversation, but wouldn't that be on their end? One of my best friends was raised catholic, is not religious, married a Jewish lady, and now participates to a pretty deep level with her without an ounce of belief. But he does it because it's cultural and he thinks its part of her heritage and therefore valuable. I don't think he has any problem telling that to other Jewish people in their synagogue. If a person in your church is kind of a drag and you wouldn't be friends anyway, that's that... no?

At the end of the day, I'm not sure what advice you're going to get. Ultimately it seems like it has to come down to your concern for your spouse, her expectations, and your desire to make her happy. If you put those things first, everything else sort of becomes window dressing

On Sunday if I go to my parents church; I just attend Sunday School. No Service. I haven't been to service for a while. Many times I force myself to go; I end up leaving after praise and worship and before the sermon. Usually I am starving up until this time so all I can really think about is FOOD! Because I usually don't eat breakfast or anything before church, I get hungry during service. Sitting thru a sermon with your belly aching is kinda excruciating.

Sunday school seems to have more substance. It goes deep into the word and you can discuss your interpretation in a group setting. The teacher does a good job of applying the word to real life too.

Now if I go to this other church, on the other hand, that is more popular and entertaining, I end up going to both Sunday School and Service. Usually every seat is taken and If you don't get into the sanctuary by a specific time, you have to go the balcony or the overflow (TVs in a room). The hymns we sing, I've never heard yet are engaging and pleasant. The choir is pleasant. The sermon is powerful and keeps me awake.

Only downside is no one knows me here and I have to make friends/connections all over again. (Non-member) Not so much at my parents church where everyone knows us. In fact, there are older people there who I don't know their name, or much about them yet they know pretty much everything about me. We've been there so long.

Usually if I'm uncomfortable during service anywhere I'll leave before the sermon. If I make it into the sermon I stay the whole time. I have a serious medical condition that drives me to leave early or else suffer.

I'm single so this is convenient to do. Now if I had a family, we would probably take separate cars. When I was a kid, leaving early was only in my dreams. Sunday School and Service every Sunday mandatory; even if sick.

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Just curious, how does that future look for her? I mean...just because she's never asked or pressured doesn't mean she doesn't have some hope or small expectation for "someday". ..

At the end of the day, I'm not sure what advice you're going to get. Ultimately it seems like it has to come down to your concern for your spouse, her expectations, and your desire to make her happy. If you put those things first, everything else sort of becomes window dressing

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It's not that my wife doesn't care, she would prefer that I go to church with. However, she does not expect it or hope for a change, either now or in the future, and if she did I would definitely know.

I agree with you that mine and my families guilt is something that I/they need to get over, but that's always easier said than done. For #4, the point is that when the chips are down, we cling to things that have value, and religion, whether I believe or not, is a good comfort blanket, and something that I think has been a net positive in my life. That's why I'm open to attending, even if I don't necessarily believe.

Advice is all good and well, as well as hearing how others in similar boats have dealt with things.

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The cons against church:
1. Can be boring.
2. I don't believe
3. Sometimes hear messages that are contrary to my values.
4. Don't necessarily want my kids to have the same spiritual baggage as I do if they eventually leave.
5. I don't want to form relationships with people that are assumed to come from a place of spiritual compatibility. Them: "Hey, it's really great to meet other Christian / Catholic families in the area. It's so hard to find people that blah blah blah. We have a Wednesday night Bible study..." Me: Well....

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Have you talked about #4 with your wife? In the sense of, will you support her decision to take the kids if you aren't going? And will you back her up if they say they don't want to because you don't? How does she feel about those scenarios?

Excellent questions that I don't have a great answer to yet. Most likely when they are little, church and other activities like athletics/school/astronomy club (my activity) will not optional. When they get old enough to be able to process the why they are making their choices, church may become optional.

When they are infant through 3rd gradish age, from an operational standpoint my participation in church will not be optional as parental assistance is required. I'm ok with that.

I really can't imagine going back to church. I find it uncomfortable enough when people pray around me for longer than a quick blessing.

Same here. I was raised with a very strong southern Baptist background, but over the past 10 years have become essentially agnostic. My wife was raised Catholic so the only time I ever go to church nowadays is when I get very heavily guilt-tripped into attending holiday mass on Christmas Eve or Easter with the rest of the in-laws. I can't stand attending mass and of course it's a HUGE deal to my wife if I try to get out of it, because she thinks it looks bad to her family, which is funny to me considering how infrequently she attends church of any kind. Now we have a 2 month old daughter and I am just waiting on the "we need to find a church to take the baby to" argument. I have no problems with her going to church or believing whatever she wants to believe, but I honestly have no desire to take part in that lifestyle anymore. Blah

My wife, kids and I regularly attend a Methodist church. I would probably consider myself close enough to agnostic, but the wife is a believer. She goes to weekday Bible Studies, and usually will go to church before the rest of us to volunteer. I'll bring the kids later to go to Sunday School, and I'll go to the service with her. It's something she likes, enjoys, and wants to do together. I consider sacrificing an hour or two a week to my wife to not be a big deal. I don't pray, I'll stand when everyone else does, but I don't say or sing anything. The preacher is big on explanations and teaching, which I really enjoy. If I can learn something, even if it is more about something I don't believe, I count it a good day. If he was a different style or preacher I would still go, but not like it. Sometimes someone else will give the sermon and it is all made up anecdotes that somehow relate to the Bible, I'll zone out those days. I can't stand testimonies: the coincidences in your life that lead to your faith have no bearing on mine.

I like the kids going because of the relationships, friendships, and morals. But both my kids know that no one knows for sure what happens when you die, and that the Bible is full of stories used to make a point, that doesn't necessarily make them true.

My advice would be to be honest with your wife, but to listen to her. If it that important to her, you can make a two hour sacrifice for her. Try to find a service or preacher that you like, and view it as an educational opportunity.

A lot more 'mixed' marriages here than I expected.

You don't know my wife.

And no rule #1, perv!

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A lot more 'mixed' marriages here than I expected.

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Christianity still has a high cultural component in America. it will be a long time before that fades.

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Same here. I was raised with a very strong southern Baptist background, but over the past 10 years have become essentially agnostic. My wife was raised Catholic so the only time I ever go to church nowadays is when I get very heavily guilt-tripped into attending holiday mass on Christmas Eve or Easter with the rest of the in-laws. I can't stand attending mass and of course it's a HUGE deal to my wife if I try to get out of it, because she thinks it looks bad to her family, which is funny to me considering how infrequently she attends church of any kind. Now we have a 2 month old daughter and I am just waiting on the "we need to find a church to take the baby to" argument. I have no problems with her going to church or believing whatever she wants to believe, but I honestly have no desire to take part in that lifestyle anymore. Blah

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Does your wife know your beliefs and understand how you perceive the experience of going to Church at this point in your life?

My wife is not a church goer, but my entire extended family is full of preachers, missionaries and strong believers. The only reason I would go to a church at this point is for a wedding or funeral.

Not long ago, at my grandma's birthday party, one of my cousins grabbed an acoustic guitar and just started playing praise music. It was one of the more uncomfortable situations I've ever been in, which is weird because stuff like that used to happen all the time.

How can you go into a Church and watch hundreds if not thousands of people singing and praising something you believe doesn't exist? I would feel like such a fraud, even if I sat there and didn't participate.

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Your premise was not that everyone needs leadership. You said twice very specifically that the husband is in charge of the household and he needs to lead.

That's the cringeworthy part to me, that he, rather than they are in charge. I'm not a hapless cuckold that needs a red pill for knowing and practicing that my wife and I are equal partners of our home and spiritual life.*

*You didn't say or imply that part, that's my own strawman. I did read your advice as more or less "man up" to gender roles/norms that are patrimonial.

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Per the bible, the man is the spiritual leader of the home. Of course it is cringe worthy to you. The cross is foolishness to those who do not believe.

My family is 50/50 on being religious...my Grandad is a preacher, but his 2 kids (my Dad and Aunt) are not religious at all. My Mom is still very involved in the church I grew up going to...out of my friends from youth group/church growing up I would say at least a quarter of us are no longer involved in the church anymore, even some of the hardcore kids have grown away from it since we all moved on to college and careers. I don't really judge people if they are or aren't religious (guess I took some of those parables/lessons to heart), but I know that if I ever told my grandparents they would be apoplectic. I finally told my Mom this year and that was very hard for her to understand, but I had to explain to her that it had nothing to do with how she raised us (my younger sister has been atheist for longer than I have).

Anyways, my wife's family is all Catholic, but the "back-row Baptist" type of Catholics that aren't overtly religious even at mass, so I really don't get too worked up about skipping mass with them when I can get away with it. Like you said, it definitely feels uncomfortable for me, being unfamiliar with their liturgies and not knowing when to sit/stand/kneel...they also go to a church that has some ridiculous number of people so they cram like 300-400 people into each Mass back to back to back so there isn't really any sense of community like I grew up with at my church.

Anyways- I was really bored at work yesterday and decided to see what this board had going on. Interesting to see how other people deal w/ this issue with their families, very insightful!

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Per the bible, the man is the spiritual leader of the home. Of course it is cringe worthy to you. The cross is foolishness to those who do not believe.

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