US didn't even know that carrier existed and it wasn't until the war ended the found out not only that it sunk, but how big it was.

And sunk just 10 days after being commissioned.

I remember reading a story about that in Reader's Digest when I was a kid. The captain was absolutely convinced that he had sunk a carrier, but the Navy didn't believe him at first because they didn't know this one existed.

Shinano was a death trap, and took over 1400 men with her to her watery grave.

To date, the wreck has never been found.

Still can't compare to sinking a fleet carrier and a destroyer ,severely damaging a battleship and barely missing a 2nd fleet carrier with one salvo

Who was that? The closest I can see are Barb and Redfish but they sank escort carriers.

The biggest "what might have been" if not for defective torpedos is Tunny. She got between the two columns of a convoy that had a carrier in one column and two escort carriers in the other. Tunny made 4 stern shots and heard 4 hits. This was followed by 6 bow shots with 3 hits heard. Only the Taiyo was damaged.

It was the other team. I-19 sank USS Wasp and USS O'Brien at Guadalcanal.

YZ250 said:

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And sunk just 10 days after being commissioned.

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before it even engaged in battle or had planes and armaments!

imagine the Japanese Navy, once the most powerful in the world in 1941 reduced to literally ZERO aircraft carriers by August 1945!

The US Navy had over 70!

Japan's war efforts in the Pacific were tied to her aircraft carriers. Losing all her carriers meant Japan had no chance of winning the war.

I understand that it is nearly the same thing, but losing a substantial number (>500) of well-trained, seasoned pilots in June of 1944 in the Battle of the Philippine Sea spelled the doom of the Japanese empire.

dcbowers said:

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I understand that it is nearly the same thing, but losing a substantial number (>500) of well-trained, seasoned pilots in June of 1944 in the Battle of the Philippine Sea spelled the doom of the Japanese empire.

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Not many people know we had over 600 ships for that operation. It is said a Japanese Admiral saluted USS Johnston, a destroyer, as she sank into the abyss of the infinitely deep waters where the battle took place because the crew fought so valiantly against much larger Japanese battleships.

Most of my professional schooling as an army officer pertaining to paradigms and strategic matters of warfare were focused primarily on the ETO. Therefore, I researched the Pacific War and the Battle of the Philippine Sea popped up. I will be first to admit I am not a military historian.

Tanker123 said:

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dcbowers said:

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I understand that it is nearly the same thing, but losing a substantial number (>500) of well-trained, seasoned pilots in June of 1944 in the Battle of the Philippine Sea spelled the doom of the Japanese empire.

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Not many people know we had over 600 ships for that operation. It is said a Japanese Admiral saluted USS Johnston, a destroyer, as she sank into the abyss of the infinitely deep waters where the battle took place because the crew fought so valiantly against much larger Japanese battleships.

Most of my professional schooling as an army officer pertaining to paradigms and strategic matters of warfare were focused primarily on the ETO. Therefore, I researched the Pacific War and the Battle of the Philippine Sea popped up. I will be first to admit I am not a military historian.

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Ian Toll's Pacific War Trilogy is excellent and a nice partner to Rick Atkinson's Liberation Trilogy.

Tanker123 said:

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dcbowers said:

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I understand that it is nearly the same thing, but losing a substantial number (>500) of well-trained, seasoned pilots in June of 1944 in the Battle of the Philippine Sea spelled the doom of the Japanese empire.

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Not many people know we had over 600 ships for that operation. It is said a Japanese Admiral saluted USS Johnston, a destroyer, as she sank into the abyss of the infinitely deep waters where the battle took place because the crew fought so valiantly against much larger Japanese battleships.

Most of my professional schooling as an army officer pertaining to paradigms and strategic matters of warfare were focused primarily on the ETO. Therefore, I researched the Pacific War and the Battle of the Philippine Sea popped up. I will be first to admit I am not a military historian.

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The USS Johnston was sunk at the Battle of Leyte Gulf, not Philippine Sea.

What we call the Battle of the Philippine Sea was intended by the IJN to be the Mahanian 'decisive battle' which would defeat the US main fleet between carrier and land based air, and leave the IJN master of the western Pacific.

It was the first major fleet battle between the USN and IJN since late 1942, and the US Pacific Fleet had grown enormously in that time, as well as significantly increasing it's capabilities in the area of radar directed air interception.

The battle did not go as planned for the IJN.

The biggest loss of seasoned, well-trained air crews occurred at Midway. By the time of Philippine Sea battle, Japan had managed to train many air crews, but in no way, shape, or form could they be considered veteran or seasoned. There's a reason why it was called the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot. US shot down over 400 planes and in return the Japanese got one bomb hit on the South Dakota. Speaking of which, a big reason so many aircraft were shot down was that Spruance sent his fast battleships and cruisers to west of Saipan to operate as a giant anti-aircraft obstacle to incoming raids. I think that between the Hellcats and VT-fused shells, the First Mobile Fleet didn't have a chance of success. Also losing two large fleet carriers to sub torpedoes before battle even commenced was big blow.

JR_83 said:

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The biggest loss of seasoned, well-trained air crews occurred at Midway. By the time of Philippine Sea battle, Japan had managed to train many air crews, but in no way, shape, or form could they be considered veteran or seasoned. There's a reason why it was called the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot. US shot down over 400 planes and in return the Japanese got one bomb hit on the South Dakota. Speaking of which, a big reason so many aircraft were shot down was that Spruance sent his fast battleships and cruisers to west of Saipan to operate as a giant anti-aircraft obstacle to incoming raids. I think that between the Hellcats and VT-fused shells, the First Mobile Fleet didn't have a chance of success. Also losing two large fleet carriers to sub torpedoes before battle even commenced was big blow.

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If my memory is correct, the Japanese Rear Admiral sent out his planes for offensive operations which meant he could not conduct concurrent defensive operations with his planes.

dcbowers said:

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I understand that it is nearly the same thing, but losing a substantial number (>500) of well-trained, seasoned pilots in June of 1944 in the Battle of the Philippine Sea spelled the doom of the Japanese empire.

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You are correct. The so what of the loss of aircraft carriers and planes is Japan could not attack our fleet nor defend her fleet properly. We eventually owned the sea and air which meant we would eventually own the land and islands.