TexAgs91 said:

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Funky Winkerbean said:

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How long until Joe hands out money to save the program?

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He can't afford it

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Like that matters.

Trek Strategy said:

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Secolobo said:

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And some wonder why a normal truck is to high….

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That's what I immediately thought. Why the hell do you think there are so many F150s that cost $80k or more?

nortex97 said:

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Before the EV insanity the mfg's had all been consolidating around 3 or 4 basic platforms each (A, B, C size, then trucks). I dunno if that works out well though as EV's have such different basic platform requirements to be 'ideal.'

I am skeptical Stellantis really has a platform that works 'great' for both, as they have a history of failing in both EV's and ICE vehicles. Heck, they are even today selling some distant descendent of some 1990's E-class Mercedes as a Dodge sedan/muscle car.

What would be really fascinating is if Tesla decided to commit some heresy vs. the evangelists and built a hybrid model at scale. I doubt it though, too many ego's at risk.

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Not sure. Read a WSJ article about it. They are already rolling it out and CEO is 100% all in on EV because of it and says they will be profitable this year on EVs. My guess is there cars will still be crap and maybe worse than usual but technically profitable.

deddog said:

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bobbranco said:

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Ford is relying on brand loyalty. I was loyal until Bill Ford went overboard on the BEV nonsense and jacked up the prices for every vehicle.

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Loved my Mustang. Wanted to buy "American"
Bought an Edge (awful)
Bought an Explorer ( powerful but problems in year 3 that should happen in Year 7-10)

Done with Ford.
Unless maybe Mustang GT
And as much as I love mustangs, still not buying the Mach E

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Ford should have developed their hybrid models.

Ford CEO not as funny as his brother apparently

What a terrible bet

Go woke, go broke.

Oh geez, who could have predicted that an all ELECTRIC F150 wouldn't sell like hot cakes

Ford and the Big 3 have a dilemma. Keep pushing EVs and potentially go bankrupt or scrap EVs and definitely go bankrupt. They all Know EVs are the future. Many on here disagrees but they are looking at a blockbuster moment.

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Ford should have developed their hybrid models.

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I love my hybrid F-150!

EVs are the future like a supersonic passenger plane is the future.

Sure, it'll be cost effective one day and mass adopted. But it could be 30 years .

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That there is a powerful business model.

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How does that old joke go? Something something about making it up with volume

YouBet said:

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That $132K per vehicle loss is pretty incredible.

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I'm not going to BS you and tell you that everything is going according to plan (this looks like the early stages of a total FUBAR), but the $132k loss/vehicle is probably misleading as hell. I bet that includes massive preparatory CapEx spending, or operations at a plant whose capacity far exceeds current production, or something to that effect. And then there's the puzzle of how a 20% decline in sales led to an 84% reduction in revenue - something is really messed up there. I wonder if they delayed deliveries so that they could recognize a bunch of revenue next quarter (ie we might be looking at step one of a Big Bath).

Again, this has all the makings of a complete disaster, but I don't think the operation is structurally set up to lose $132k/vehicle. I expect that number will plummet as they scale.

Deputy Travis Junior said:

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YouBet said:

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That $132K per vehicle loss is pretty incredible.

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I'm not going to BS you and tell you that everything is going according to plan (this looks like the early stages of a total FUBAR), but the $132k loss/vehicle is probably misleading as hell. I bet that includes massive preparatory CapEx spending, or operations at a plant whose capacity far exceeds current production, or something to that effect. And then there's the puzzle of how a 20% decline in sales led to an 84% reduction in revenue - something is really messed up there. I wonder if they delayed deliveries so that they could recognize a bunch of revenue next quarter (ie we might be looking at step one of a Big Bath).

Again, this has all the makings of a complete disaster, but I don't think the operation is structurally set up to lose $132k/vehicle. I expect that number will plummet as they scale.

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Agreed, except that vert few are buying their EVs so the scaling ain't happening

This is where we will disagree. I respect that you may not think so but almost all major auto makers think so, thus they are putting billions in trying to get a piece of the EV pie.

Kmart, polaroid, Sony, Blockbuster, Nokia/Blackberry all thought their model could not be disrupted and not smart enough to pivot to the future. Well guess what, they all have gone bankrupt or a shell of themselves being taken over by Amazon, digital cameras, Netflix, Smartphones.

In 10 yrs, unless the big 3 can get a piece of the EV pie, they could very well be bankrupt sans another massive government bailout.

Medaggie said:

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This is where we will disagree. I respect that you may not think so but almost all major auto makers think so, thus they are putting billions in trying to get a piece of the EV pie.

Kmart, polaroid, Sony, Blockbuster, Nokia/Blackberry all thought their model could not be disrupted and not smart enough to pivot to the future. Well guess what, they all have gone bankrupt or a shell of themselves being taken over by Amazon, digital cameras, Netflix, Smartphones.

In 10 yrs, unless the big 3 can get a piece of the EV pie, they could very well be bankrupt sans another massive government bailout.

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Two observations. One, I've been hearing these predictions 20 years now and assured that total EV domination is just around the corner. Somehow it keeps getting put off by another 5 years or so every year.

Two, old technologies never die immediately. The old and new coexist sometimes for decades. So if you're hoping to see the total demise of ICE vehicles in our lifetime, I would say don't hold your breath.

Yep, you have definitely identified the "early stages of a total FUBAR" part that I was referencing haha

If you're one of the people for whom an electric works (predictable daily commute, not a lot of long car trips), I don't know why you'd buy anything but a tesla. Everything else is new and the car companies have a million bugs to work out. Why would you pay $50k+ to be a guinea pig when you can get a car that's already worked out all that crap?

Different note, I don't know what the hell Ford was thinking with the electric mustang. That thing needed to look and accelerate like a Ferrari; it needed to SCREAM power. Instead they took a hallowed muscle car brand and built... A ****ing station wagon???

biden may raise the capital gains tax rate to 94% and divert the money to electric vehicle manufacturers.

YouBet said:

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deddog said:

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bobbranco said:

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Ford is relying on brand loyalty. I was loyal until Bill Ford went overboard on the BEV nonsense and jacked up the prices for every vehicle.

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Loved my Mustang. Wanted to buy "American"
Bought an Edge (awful)
Bought an Explorer ( powerful but problems in year 3 that should happen in Year 7-10)

Done with Ford.
Unless maybe Mustang GT
And as much as I love mustangs, still not buying the Mach E

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Well, the Mach E is literally not a Mustang so I get your decision.

That $132K per vehicle loss is pretty incredible. I bet Ford is going to follow the Stellantis model. Stellantis has developed a common platform that they can use for both ICE and EV. It's a smart business decision that probably sanitizes consumer choice. They are going to build everything from cars to trucks both ICE and EV all on the same platform. This will be the future I suspect.

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This will NOT work for the Jeep line.

Deputy Travis Junior said:

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Yep, you have definitely identified the "early stages of a total FUBAR" part that I was referencing haha

If you're one of the people for whom an electric works (predictable daily commute, not a lot of long car trips), I don't know why you'd buy anything but a tesla. Everything else is new and the car companies have a million bugs to work out. Why would you pay $50k+ to be a guinea pig when you can get a car that's already worked out all that crap?

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LOL Teslas get recalls (often "software updates") practically every week it seems. The cybertrucks are particularly error prone at the moment.

Read this book.

hph6203 said:

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Read this book.

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Reading!

What they lose per vehicle they can just make up on volume / Dem economics

FCBlitz said:

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Medaggie said:

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This is where we will disagree. I respect that you may not think so but almost all major auto makers think so, thus they are putting billions in trying to get a piece of the EV pie.

Kmart, polaroid, Sony, Blockbuster, Nokia/Blackberry all thought their model could not be disrupted and not smart enough to pivot to the future. Well guess what, they all have gone bankrupt or a shell of themselves being taken over by Amazon, digital cameras, Netflix, Smartphones.

In 10 yrs, unless the big 3 can get a piece of the EV pie, they could very well be bankrupt sans another massive government bailout.

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Do you agree that the governments who are in collusion together using NETZERO to artificially affect the success EV sales have had to date? Without EO 14057, NETZERO and other efforts by gov'ts to purchase EV's and provide charging stations…..the EV footprint would be much much smaller.

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People keep forgetting this. There are CAFE standards that the automakers have to hit on top of state mandates on top of European mandates. They aren't 100% doing this out of some extreme whiff on strategy although there is obviously some of that here.

Governments are making them do this. And they can't get there with just ICE development. If not for western governments gaslighting of humans on the climate crisis we would have seen more market driven and organic development here.

Yep, this is all being forced on us by leftist governments. The technology is half-baked and the infrastructure is not ready anyway. These cars are niche product toys for people who are compulsive early adopters.

I can believe that the losses are realistically in the $132k per unit realm.

When I worked for a major OEM in engine design, we were privy to some internal sales data.

The compact cars were averaging only $100/unit in profit.

The top trim level pick ups were averaging $30,000 in profit per unit. The average sales price for the top trim levels at the time was $68,000 and the company had a total of $38,000 in material, production, and capex, per unit.

There are alot of reasons why the losses can get this bad. But the bottom line is--they don't know what they are doing. They are out of their lane and getting hammered for it.

Medaggie said:

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This is where we will disagree. I respect that you may not think so but almost all major auto makers think so, thus they are putting billions in trying to get a piece of the EV pie.

Kmart, polaroid, Sony, Blockbuster, Nokia/Blackberry all thought their model could not be disrupted and not smart enough to pivot to the future. Well guess what, they all have gone bankrupt or a shell of themselves being taken over by Amazon, digital cameras, Netflix, Smartphones.

In 10 yrs, unless the big 3 can get a piece of the EV pie, they could very well be bankrupt sans another massive government bailout.

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Ok, let's think about this. The best and brightest in corporate America missed the boat as far as free market changes and you are arguing that the government, filled with numbskulls and crooks and those with an agenda, are the experts when it comes to the car market and the future of vehicle power? Wow. SMH. They are transitioning because Biden is forcing them too. This is not market driven.

Why not allow the manufacturers who want to transition to EVs to do so and the rest can go bankrupt if what you believe is true comes to pass?

What's wrong with that approach?

Ag with kids said:

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YouBet said:

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deddog said:

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bobbranco said:

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Ford is relying on brand loyalty. I was loyal until Bill Ford went overboard on the BEV nonsense and jacked up the prices for every vehicle.

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Loved my Mustang. Wanted to buy "American"
Bought an Edge (awful)
Bought an Explorer ( powerful but problems in year 3 that should happen in Year 7-10)

Done with Ford.
Unless maybe Mustang GT
And as much as I love mustangs, still not buying the Mach E

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Well, the Mach E is literally not a Mustang so I get your decision.

That $132K per vehicle loss is pretty incredible. I bet Ford is going to follow the Stellantis model. Stellantis has developed a common platform that they can use for both ICE and EV. It's a smart business decision that probably sanitizes consumer choice. They are going to build everything from cars to trucks both ICE and EV all on the same platform. This will be the future I suspect.

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This will NOT work for the Jeep line.

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Looks like one of the Jeep SUVs is getting it.

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Stellantis's new global vehicle platforms have been touted by executives as a business advantage in recent months. Up to two million vehicles alone can be built on one of Stellantis's new platforms, called STLA Medium, equal to one-third of the automaker's total sales in 2023.

These platforms, which contain the basic mechanical components that underpin a car, can be used to not only make battery-only models but also hybrids and those with internal combustion engines.

Kuniskis said at a recent conference that one of the company's four new vehicle platforms will support a midsize SUV for Jeep, a two-door muscle coupe for Dodge and a new vehicle for Chryslerincluding those powered by gas engines and battery motors.

"That one platform underpins in the short term, eight different, completely, radically different cars for radically different customer profiles," Kuniskis said. "And in the longer term, it will do even more."

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YouBet said:

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Looks like one of the Jeep SUVs is getting it.

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Advanced press release of Jeep prototype:

Buck Turgidson said:

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Yep, this is all being forced on us by leftist governments. The technology is half-baked and the infrastructure is not ready anyway. These cars are niche product toys for people who are compulsive early adopters.

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Well said. They're basically glorified golf carts for the rich. Look at the doctors on here who enthusiastically embrace Teslas.

They look like idiots to be honest. Hundreds of posts defending a f'ing car. In the time they claim to save at the pump they are on here defending their precious cars like they are some sort of deity. Laughable at best.

When people give different opinions and you argue with emotions, you start to look like an angry person. I can name many things I would never buy but I am not going to tell others what to do with their money or calling them idiots.

Its like me going around calling gun owners, idiots who are wanna be cops. Just plain dumb.

If you want an adult discussion or want opinions/facts on the matter, I am happy to go into a healthy debate. If not, just start a "EV and Tesla Hater thread" and you can create your own echo chamber.

But here is a link to Jason Cammisa who most will agree is unbiased car guy who likes ICE cars. Here is his review of the model 3 performance.




I assume most haters will not watch, but he essentially said this made the BMW M3 an irrelevant car. But I guess if a golf cart and an EV runs on batteries, then its just a glorified golf cart. For 54K or 47K with credits, you are getting a car that will smoke the top BMW M3 Competition starting, yes starting, at 84k. Want to get into the fastest production BMW M8 competition starting at 140K? Yeah the 54K Golf cart will smoke that too.

Just facts, but lets not even talk about facts or how experts who actually review cars for a living. Lets just go back being angry and wondering why they took away my Blackberry.