You 100% need someone different handling your social media. You are alienating a large percentage of your target demographic just by the way you respond, regardless of the merits of your product.

There are lots of HVAC experts on Texags. Who knew?

Ark03 said:

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There are lots of HVAC experts on Texags. Who knew?

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I am not surprised....

TexAgs: We Know Stuff

EcoZapp.Makes.Crisp.Air said:

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I invite you to stand in a house in which we have serviced and feel the humidity difference. and report back to TexAgs

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I invite you to go into that house, cooled to the customers desired temperature and provide before and after MEASUREMENTS of that humidity.

And I don't mean 10 min before and 10 min after. Come back a week later and SHOW us with quantitative data that the humidity is the same or lower.

I'll go ahead and defend the guy a little so it's not like I am being completely unreasonable. If the home receives this treatment is 60+ years old, leaks air like a sieve, and is poorly insulated, I would be willing to bet that there wouldn't be a major difference in the humidity before and after. Its possible, but probably not going to cause major problems as far as humidity is concerned.

The flip side of that coin is that doing this to a foam insulated house that has an ACH of 1 or 2 will most definitely create a major change in humidity, and not for the better.

I go on vacation for a week, to Texas even, and this is what the board is up to?

Explanation Here

You do understand that the best business decision you could make at this point would be to delete this account and change your business name, right? You are in no way coming across as a professional that I would ever pay to perform a service.

EcoZapp.Makes.Crisp.Air said:

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Someone who is an expert please explain this less run time thing to me in this scenario...


Bob usually keep his house at 70* F. Bob wants to save money and keeps his house at 76*F. 6 degrees difference is going to cause his system to run much less- are we all in agreement that his system would run much less?

Should we generally be concerned for Bob that his system is not running enough?
and how much less can we assume that Bob's system may run- 10% less, 20% less 30% less?



Now this "guy" comes along who can make his system blow colder air ( lets pretend humidity is unknown)

Bob keeps his house set on 70*F with this magic voodoo juice which makes his system run say 10-30% less.
Should we be concerned for Bob that his system is running less with this magic voodoo juice in this scenario?


Please tell me which would be worse and why?

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Carrier determined, through trial and error, that 75F and 50% humidity is the "optimal" setting for indoor AC systems. Back in the 1910's.

You can have a system set at 70F, but at 80% humidity and it won't feel great. At the same time, a system at 76F, but 40% humidity will feel cooler.



But how are you going to blow colder air?

Modern home HVAC systems are pure component systems; you have a single refrigerant. There is no way you can have a set pressure and get it colder than the bubble point without additional cooling. Condensing Freon to a liquid then flashing it, without any additional cooling, especially cooling BELOW the flash pressure/temperature, means you cannot get the Freon any colder than the flashed pressure/temperature. Example:

Ambient air is 95F. 10F approach on the condenser. So the Freon is condensed at 105F. Looking up R-22 (R-401A) means pressure is 210.75 psig (354.44 psig). If the interior coils are running at 40F, then the pressure would be 68.51 psig (132.74 psig).

How are you going to get the coils colder than 40F? The only way is to make the suction pressure lower; but you cannot really control the suction pressure, unless you have a TVX installed. Most older units are going to have a single orifice plate (small brass plug with a hole drilled in it). Being an orifice plate/tube, you have a set size, with a set pressure drop across the opening. The only way to adjust the suction pressure (to get a colder liquid Freon/coil unit) is to adjust the opening. In large, industrial or commercial units, you can do that. Because you have a control valve. Home systems (and automotive) do not. They are fixed. If I subcool the liquid, via another liquid, then yes, the coils can get colder. But using just air (and air alone) there is no way to do this.



Now, you can claim that your "magic juice" makes the system not a 'pure' system, but a mixture. Well, that is valid. But for the most common method to determine what's going on inside, you would assume Ideal/Perfect mixing. That means the overall pressure/temperature is a function of the mixture ratios. So the pressure would be the ratio of Freon to 'magic juice'. Since I doubt you are putting significant amounts of 'magic juice' into the system (i.e., >10%), the mixing properties can be assumed to be the bulk fluid, which is the Freon in the system (R-22 or R-410A (or R-407C if you have converted)).

The other option is to assume the 'magic juice' makes the Freon an azeotropic mixture, which you really don't want to do. Because if you lose part of the mixture or push the ratios off, then you won't be able to predict what's going on inside the system. Pressure/temperature charts won't have much meaning.


Modern HVAC is balancing both humidity AND temperature. If I run the system shorter because I oversize the air handler, then the humidity is going to be an issue (too high). If I undersize the unit, humidity will be great, but the unit will run a lot longer. While the unit running longer might not be an issue (the ideal sized unit would run 24/7), you would never cool the house down to the desired temperature. Hence why large buildings tend to run the place colder, in humid areas, to control humidity. Easier to tell people to put on a coat so that humidity is comfortable while the air temp is colder than to have everyone running fans because it is too humid and everyone complains about the AC "not working".

If you want to help people fix their units and not run them as much, you should be pushing a dehumidifier; not only would it help them year-round (especially Fall/Spring in Texas, when the air temperature is 'just right', but the humidity is high), it would reduce some of the load on the home system and ACTUALLY lower demand needed. Mostly because in most Houston/Gulf Coast units, about 1/2 of the cooling is going down the drain as condensate due to humidity.



Since you haven't said what the 'magic juice' is, the best I can see is an MSDS for an automotive version. Every time you search for this "QwikCool" or "arctic blast", you get the same canned press release about coming from NASA. That's great, but I want the actual information. I'm sure I could spend about 10 hours searching for the paper it was originally published under, but I doubt it would do much good. You are injecting Freon (hopefully the right kind), some oil (which would help if they lost Freon and took some oil out over a 10 year period (or however old the unit is), PGME, which is another type of lubricant, which might help out any rubber pieces (which is good in an automotive setting, as there are lots of rubber parts; not so many rubber parts in a home HVAC system), and leak sealer, which probably helps out the in the unit close some small leaks. Not that I think leak sealer is good; almost every time I have seen it used, the unit dies in about 1 week to 5 months.


Now we can go back to your example above and start putting numbers to the system, but I go to the easy way of thinking. If a 'magic juice' could help system bump up operational numbers by 1 or 2 SEER, why wouldn't every manufacturer include it originally in all new systems? Since SEER has to start going up, why not make your old, fully designed SEER 12 unit into a 13 or 14 with this additive? I could beat my competition (if I am say Goodman) by offering a SEER 14 at SEER 12 prices. Or a SEER 21 at SEER 19 prices.

This "magic juice" is attempting to beat physics, thermodynamics and psychrometrics. I think these fields (about 150+ years old) are going to win.

~egon

mic drop

EcoZapp.Makes.Crisp.Air said:

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So what your saying is.. if our service does actually reduce runs times and reduces humidity we are on for the $5 bet from all the skeptical people on this page ? Is this acceptable ?

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You still don't get it.

hurricanejake02 said:

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Explanation Here

You do understand that the best business decision you could make at this point would be to delete this account and change your business name, right? You are in no way coming across as a professional that I would ever pay to perform a service.

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I reiterate hurricanejakes02's sentiment noted above...

EMY92 said:

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EcoZapp.Makes.Crisp.Air said:

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We can enable your system to blow about 8-12 degrees colder/less humid air with a one time service

https://www.facebook.com/EcoZapphome/videos/263515637386905/

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If you get the system to blow 8-12 degrees colder, your evap coil would need to be colder. If you go below the design of an evap. coil at 40 degrees, you are going to end up freezing the coil. It is the same as running the system low on refrigerant.

A frozen coil will not remove humidity and will not cool a house.

How do you get around this?

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They tested it on a couple of systems that didn't freeze.

Dr. Doctor said:

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EcoZapp.Makes.Crisp.Air said:

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Someone who is an expert please explain this less run time thing to me in this scenario...


Bob usually keep his house at 70* F. Bob wants to save money and keeps his house at 76*F. 6 degrees difference is going to cause his system to run much less- are we all in agreement that his system would run much less?

Should we generally be concerned for Bob that his system is not running enough?
and how much less can we assume that Bob's system may run- 10% less, 20% less 30% less?



Now this "guy" comes along who can make his system blow colder air ( lets pretend humidity is unknown)

Bob keeps his house set on 70*F with this magic voodoo juice which makes his system run say 10-30% less.
Should we be concerned for Bob that his system is running less with this magic voodoo juice in this scenario?


Please tell me which would be worse and why?

---

Carrier determined, through trial and error, that 75F and 50% humidity is the "optimal" setting for indoor AC systems. Back in the 1910's.

You can have a system set at 70F, but at 80% humidity and it won't feel great. At the same time, a system at 76F, but 40% humidity will feel cooler.



But how are you going to blow colder air?

Modern home HVAC systems are pure component systems; you have a single refrigerant. There is no way you can have a set pressure and get it colder than the bubble point without additional cooling. Condensing Freon to a liquid then flashing it, without any additional cooling, especially cooling BELOW the flash pressure/temperature, means you cannot get the Freon any colder than the flashed pressure/temperature. Example:

Ambient air is 95F. 10F approach on the condenser. So the Freon is condensed at 105F. Looking up R-22 (R-401A) means pressure is 210.75 psig (354.44 psig). If the interior coils are running at 40F, then the pressure would be 68.51 psig (132.74 psig).

How are you going to get the coils colder than 40F? The only way is to make the suction pressure lower; but you cannot really control the suction pressure, unless you have a TVX installed. Most older units are going to have a single orifice plate (small brass plug with a hole drilled in it). Being an orifice plate/tube, you have a set size, with a set pressure drop across the opening. The only way to adjust the suction pressure (to get a colder liquid Freon/coil unit) is to adjust the opening. In large, industrial or commercial units, you can do that. Because you have a control valve. Home systems (and automotive) do not. They are fixed. If I subcool the liquid, via another liquid, then yes, the coils can get colder. But using just air (and air alone) there is no way to do this.



Now, you can claim that your "magic juice" makes the system not a 'pure' system, but a mixture. Well, that is valid. But for the most common method to determine what's going on inside, you would assume Ideal/Perfect mixing. That means the overall pressure/temperature is a function of the mixture ratios. So the pressure would be the ratio of Freon to 'magic juice'. Since I doubt you are putting significant amounts of 'magic juice' into the system (i.e., >10%), the mixing properties can be assumed to be the bulk fluid, which is the Freon in the system (R-22 or R-410A (or R-407C if you have converted)).

The other option is to assume the 'magic juice' makes the Freon an azeotropic mixture, which you really don't want to do. Because if you lose part of the mixture or push the ratios off, then you won't be able to predict what's going on inside the system. Pressure/temperature charts won't have much meaning.


Modern HVAC is balancing both humidity AND temperature. If I run the system shorter because I oversize the air handler, then the humidity is going to be an issue (too high). If I undersize the unit, humidity will be great, but the unit will run a lot longer. While the unit running longer might not be an issue (the ideal sized unit would run 24/7), you would never cool the house down to the desired temperature. Hence why large buildings tend to run the place colder, in humid areas, to control humidity. Easier to tell people to put on a coat so that humidity is comfortable while the air temp is colder than to have everyone running fans because it is too humid and everyone complains about the AC "not working".

If you want to help people fix their units and not run them as much, you should be pushing a dehumidifier; not only would it help them year-round (especially Fall/Spring in Texas, when the air temperature is 'just right', but the humidity is high), it would reduce some of the load on the home system and ACTUALLY lower demand needed. Mostly because in most Houston/Gulf Coast units, about 1/2 of the cooling is going down the drain as condensate due to humidity.



Since you haven't said what the 'magic juice' is, the best I can see is an MSDS for an automotive version. Every time you search for this "QwikCool" or "arctic blast", you get the same canned press release about coming from NASA. That's great, but I want the actual information. I'm sure I could spend about 10 hours searching for the paper it was originally published under, but I doubt it would do much good. You are injecting Freon (hopefully the right kind), some oil (which would help if they lost Freon and took some oil out over a 10 year period (or however old the unit is), PGME, which is another type of lubricant, which might help out any rubber pieces (which is good in an automotive setting, as there are lots of rubber parts; not so many rubber parts in a home HVAC system), and leak sealer, which probably helps out the in the unit close some small leaks. Not that I think leak sealer is good; almost every time I have seen it used, the unit dies in about 1 week to 5 months.


Now we can go back to your example above and start putting numbers to the system, but I go to the easy way of thinking. If a 'magic juice' could help system bump up operational numbers by 1 or 2 SEER, why wouldn't every manufacturer include it originally in all new systems? Since SEER has to start going up, why not make your old, fully designed SEER 12 unit into a 13 or 14 with this additive? I could beat my competition (if I am say Goodman) by offering a SEER 14 at SEER 12 prices. Or a SEER 21 at SEER 19 prices.

This "magic juice" is attempting to beat physics, thermodynamics and psychrometrics. I think these fields (about 150+ years old) are going to win.

~egon

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This guy knows what he is talking about.

I have worked for 2 of the major 3 companies in the industry. I have a PE in the industry. I am called across the country to fix HVAC systems that know one else can, tech or engineer. I have talked to all the R&D guys in both. I kinda know this crap.

If there is a Magic juice that actually did anything, they would add it at the factory. To meet the current requirements of performance and keep prices simi-reasonable, they have cut corners on a good units. EX microfin condensing coils. They don't add it at the factories because it is basically snake oil.

The only thing I can add is the Kyoto protocol made the industry change to blended refrigerants to get chlorine and Florine out of the picture. R-11, R-22 have been replace with R-134a R-407c,R-410a and others. R-11 and R-22 are much beater true refrigerants. The current refrigerants used are blended refrigerants of the old ones. This creates a problem because as they cross the TXV or orifice plate they change phases at different temps/pressures. If you get a leak, proportionally, you lose different amounts of the components of the Refrigerants. Ideally you should replace the whole charge to get the proportions back to correct ratios. This doesn't happen in reality they just add more and hope it is close. You add your magic juice and the mixture is more convoluted and creating more problems.

What you are selling is a solvent. if you system is old, this will break down varnish, broken down oil and other containment on parts in the system. This cleans that up. Probably very good at it. Unfortunately, the first thing it attacks is the seals on the compressor which is why every manufacturer will void the warranty if it is found in the system.

I don't want to burst you bubble but you are selling stuff that is glorified cleaner.

FYI I love texags because people on here know there s__t and will back it up with facts.

Fun read! To weigh in as a ME and home inspector, I am on the skeptical to it is a really bad idea side,for the additive. Any change that shortens run times will increase humidity. Period. It doesn't matter what is in the freon. The removal of moisture occurs at the evaporator coil and only so much moisture can be removed per "pass." It is limited by surface area. And if the coil gets super cold, it will just ice up. Sucks that HVAC has so many important variables!

Until shown scientific and verifiable engineering readings otherwise, I will believe that this product will make the house feel cold but not more comfortable. That homeowners would actually end up keeping the therm9set lower. And / or moisture will become an issue.

To the op. Wouldn't hurt to have you system xhecked/tuned up, but it sounds like it is probably working OK.

Happen to inspect a new construction today that provides the perfect example. The AC s were working. Good differentials at the registers of 15 to 20 degrees (AC guys don't like how inspectors judge this at the registers , but it works.) However the house was 85 degrees inside despite being set at 72 when I got there. Why? Because the builder apparently forgot to make sure his insulation guy actually had shown up. There was no attic insulation at all. So no matter how well the AC worked, it could not keep up.

Adding insulation in the attic kight help you, and is not terribly expensive. Windows can help too, but more expensive.

We routinely keep our house colder than a 20 degree difference from outside. It becomes a function of insulation. The units can maintain that greater difference from out side if the building envelope can prevent loss from being faster than the cooling capability.

Anyone care to buy one of those propeller things that went in the automobile air intake that were guaranteed to change your mileage unbelievable amounts? {they were big around the time I was at school} I think I could make some, since the auto makers are too stupid to use them to meet efficiency requirements......must be millions to be made still.

EcoZapp.Makes.Crisp.Air said:

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I would love to show you an install and get your opinion on what we have if your in College Station

IF our stuff were a cleaning solvent... how would a cleaning solvent of any kind enable an A/C to produce 10*F colder air in mins?
( no need for hostility, just would love your thoughts)


I'm pretty sure you have never seen our stuff before, please keep that in mind

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The "solvent" is going to remove broken down refrigerant oil on the heat exchangers (condenser and evaporator) and give it a boost which it has lost over time, which leads to a very quick bump up in performance. This is a false flag as you have now altered the thermal conductivity of your heat exchanger by sacrificing the oil in your system which is used for lubrication of critical components. This "boost" is going to lead to colder air very quickly, but in the long run, more humidity and a less comfortable house - not including now short cycling your system which is very hard on the compressor.

I just installed a new 20 SEER AC in my house and if you read the fine print, the 10 year warranty I have on the system will be completely voided if I try to submit a claim and they find out that there is an additive in the system. My new system also uses a VFD on both the condensing portion of the system and air handler, which in turn lets both run almost 24/7 - albeit at a very low RPM on the condenser (still getting the required air flow across the heat exchanger) and allows the air handler/evaporator to always run at a very reduced volumetric flow, which in turn leads to perfect humidity control in my house.

OP here, appreciate all the input from everyone. Just a quick update on my findings. It turns out that there is an issue with the Nest thermostat reading temperature incorrectly. For example, during the day we'll set it to 75, but I took a couple readings in different rooms with a calibrated thermometer and the average temperature was actually 69-70. Temp of air coming out of the vent was right around 57. I'm trying to find out what is causing the Nest to read wrong, apparently there are a couple different potential causes. In the meantime we'll set the it to 77-78 to compensate. That ought to keep the a/c from running so much.

Yes, I'm a dummy for not checking this earlier.