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How is that even legal? Was the offer contingent upon you proving you were paid a certain amount at your old position? Even further proof that not disclosing your old salary is a smart decision.

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I would never just freely disclose my salary, but what would you do when the hiring manager, HR, or recruiter als you what your current salary is? I know you wouldn't just tell them it's none of their business

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Comp verification? Like, they are going to call your current employer and verify how much you are currently making? Only thing close to this I've ever experienced was my new employer buying out my unvested stock compensation. They needed verification as to the amount of unvested stock I had so they knew how much to compensate me, but they didn't ask **** about my old salary.

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I was asked verbally early in the process as they didn't want to waste either or our time if salary expectations weren't the same. Recently discussed an expected offer and they asked for docs showing the numbers.

I don't care for the process because it feels like you're playing poker with all of your cards face up But I am willing to provide it as I am interested in the position.

My company asks for pay stubs when we hire salespeople.

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How is that even legal? Was the offer contingent upon you proving you were paid a certain amount at your old position? Even further proof that not disclosing your old salary is a smart decision.

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What's not legal about it? If they want to make it part of the vetting process, they are allowed to. If you want to play hardball back, you are more than welcome to. And some hiring managers would consider it a red flag and disengage the hiring process if you did. It typically comes before a formal offer in the process.

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I was asked by a recruiter once how much I made and foolishly, I told them.

Surprise, the offer was exactly 20% above my current salary to the penny. Think that was market value for the position?

Moral of the story: don't tell anyone your salary. There's just no reason.

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Well then what do you tell them? What's the alternative?

You can counter with something like asking what the salary range is for the position, etc. The recruiter's job is to hire you for as little as possible. Your job is to get hired for as much as possible. It's all a negotiation.

Once you provide your current salary, you've anchored yourself in the negotiation.

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I wouldn't accept a counter. Once you've made the decision to leave, its time to move on.

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Winning post

You can say stuff like:

"Not enough! Haha."
"I'm currently looking for a job in 'this' salary range."
"I don't think my current salary is indicative of my market value, hence why I am looking for other opportunities."

Just keep deflecting, keeping it light-hearted if possible. I've had some tenuous conversations with recruiters as they tried to get my salary out of me, but how is that productive for them? All they did was run off a potential recruit and shrink their candidate pool. They'll say things like "well we don't want to be wasting a companies time if their offer isn't going to be within your range". And you just reply with "Well, I'm looking for positions in this salary range, so assuming everything else is positive with the opportunity, I'll be excited for a salary close to that".

Again, a recruiter gets paid by the employer. All they care about is getting a warm body in that seat. They will say "The more you get paid, the more I get paid!" but that's just mental manipulation. If they hire you at $100k, they probably get a $100k fee from the hiring company. That is then split, I don't know, 50/50 with their firm. So they walk away with $50k. Who knows, I'm making this up. But say they do. Well if they negotiate an extra $10k for you (so now $110k) they are taking home $55k instead of $50k. So, correct, the more you make, the more they make. But there's no way in hell they'll risk LOSING that $50k fee by stalling and trying to run up the price. Their incentive is to close the deal as quickly as they can. The longer it takes, the more likely one side or the other gets cold feet and they end up with nothing.

That being said, remember, it's all a negotiating tactic and may not be worth it if you really don't have a lot of room to negotiate. If you REALLY want that job, then so what if you sacrifice a chance at an extra $5k? Go ahead and tell them. I wouldn't suggest lying, but if you say "I'm currently in the range of XX and XX" then you leave yourself plenty of flexibility while giving them enough of an answer to check their box (again, this is if you DO give them your salary).

Someone above mentioned a sales position requiring a pay stub. I could maybe see this as validation of what you put on your resume from a commission standpoint? But I couldn't fathom this method flies for salaried positions.

Edit: In this post, I'm referring to third party recruiting firms when I say a "recruiter".

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You just typed a lot of words about something it's clear you don't have a ton of experience in. Sometimes they demand to know, and aren't interested in wasting time with a candidate who won't tell them. Not a ton, but it does happen.

And you could say " well I wouldn't want to work for someone like that anyway", but it's kinda hard to fault someone for being diligent in their vetting.

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"That being said, remember, it's all a negotiating tactic and may not be worth it if you really don't have a lot of room to negotiate. If you REALLY want that job, then so what if you sacrifice a chance at an extra $5k? Go ahead and tell them. "

I'm '09 and you look to be '07 from your username. Not sure why you felt the need to say I'm lacking in experience.

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How is that even legal? Was the offer contingent upon you proving you were paid a certain amount at your old position? Even further proof that not disclosing your old salary is a smart decision.

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What's not legal about it? If they want to make it part of the vetting process, they are allowed to. If you want to play hardball back, you are more than welcome to. And some hiring managers would consider it a red flag and disengage the hiring process if you did. It typically comes before a formal offer in the process.

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How is asking for someone's previous pay check "just part of the vetting process"? What are you vetting? Proof of former employment?

So if an employee has the brains to actually negotiate for their salary instead of roll-over, you consider that a red flag?

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I'm '09 and you look to be '07 from your username. Not sure why you felt the need to say I'm lacking in experience.

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Because multiple times in your post you said "I don't really know how this works" "I'm just making this up", etc. That's a lot of words to type recommending how to react in those situations when you admittedly haven't been in that many situations of a prospective employer demanding to know how much you make as a condition of continuing the process.

You said "you can't believe it happens" and "can't believe it flies", so I'm calling out your lack of experience in these matters because you've made it abundantly clear that's the case. I'm not sure why you are writing really long posts advising on matters in which you are inexperienced.

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So if an employee has the brains to actually negotiate for their salary instead of roll-over, you consider that a red flag?

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Negotiating and not being forthright when requested are not mutually exclusive. "Not revealing your number" is not the only way to negotiate, and certain employers would rather disengage than play that game with you. If knowing current salary is important to them, you can become "not with dealing with" rather than a "good negotiator".

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That is then split, I don't know, 50/50 with their firm.

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That is in reference to the commission split with a recruiter and their firm. Higher ranking recruiters will get a higher split, so in my example, I wasn't diving into the status level of the third party recruiter. It was an example to illustrate the motivations of a third party recruiter, which i know very well.

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Negotiating and not being forthright when requested are not mutually exclusive. "Not revealing your number" is not the only way to negotiate, and certain employers would rather disengage than play that game with you.

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Go on, we're listening. Give us some better ways to negotiate.

My guess is that smokeythebear actually does have experience in this issue, but they have been negative ones. True, he is mistaken in his conjectures on how the commission process works, and "running off a potential recruit" is part of the process. That being said, I can't blame anybody for having this kind of outlook on the recruiting industry, because so many just throw something against the wall to see what sticks. In the long run, however, trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole is not sustainable from either side. I tell people every week that I am not going to submit them for particular jobs because the fit isn't right. By finding the right candidates for the right jobs (and vice versa), I hope that those companies will continue to use me for their searches, and those candidates will keep me apprised to changes in the industry and make recommendations of other good candidates. If I'm doing my job well, I'm facilitating conversations between people who are far more accomplished and intelligent than I am...a daunting task to be sure, but I can tell you that when someone is staring their dream job in the face salary negotiations are not the primary concern. "Functional recruiting" is largely churning out resumes, but getting to the root of who is needed, not just what is needed, changes the field entirely. By the way, I always tell both sides not to discuss salary in the intitial interview; if the interest is there and the fit is truly genuine, that will tend to work itself out. I do, however, have to make sure everybody is in the same ballpark.

Eventually salary is going to come up, and companies almost always ask what your current salary is. If you don't divulge the info, it tends to be more of a red flag than a positive negotiating tactic.

This is spot on. Without getting into too many details, early in my career it took a recruiter 3 days and i had a new job with a 10% increase signed and done. Hindsight was certainly 20/20. At the time I didn't realize I was being bullied into a lower salary than I was worth, I was just excited for the new opportunity. Next time around, I was, understandably, more wary of my relationship with the recruiter.

Totally agree with you about a round peg in a square hole. Next time I'm on the market, I'll PM you, lew09.

What do you usually negotiate for raise wise to change jobs? I see some people leaving for 10% raises, but I prob wouldn't for less than 20%. Thoughts?

Once had a recruiter say that basically she'd never seen anyone get more than 10-15% for leaving their current position. I find that ridiculous.

Depending on how happy I am at current employer, my minimum would be a 10% raise to move.

If I was just looking to get away from current company, I MAY take a little less. If I am happy where I am, it'd probably take at least 20% or some big change for the better in other benefits.

There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to this. Sometimes people take a cut in pay because they are motivated strongly by something other than total compensation. Sometimes a person is ready for the big step up in the eyes of the hiring company. Again, if the conversation devolves to a back-and-forth about money only, something has fallen apart in the process.

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There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to this. Sometimes people take a cut in pay because they are motivated strongly by something other than total compensation. Sometimes a person is ready for the big step up in the eyes of the hiring company. Again, if the conversation devolves to a back-and-forth about money only, something has fallen apart in the process.

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Not necessarily. I could be happy where I am, but if an opportunity arises money would be the only driving force for me to leave.

There have been multiple examples of it working, but I'm against informing my current company about an external offer. I shouldn't have to campaign for a raise if I'm valued.

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I think it's interesting that some think negotiating for a higher salary will cause the company not to trust you (story above notwithstanding because that is pretty ****ty). My company was happy that I told them I had higher offers so they could attempt to keep me. A friend of mine did not give them the same courtesy and they didn't like it.

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If you're even half-ass effective and responsible, and/or worth anything... no company is going to like you leaving. When that happens it hurts the company, projects slow down, other take on more work, or do that guy's job (probably not as well in the short-term).

Folks leaving companies are never 'liked.'

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I think it's interesting that some think negotiating for a higher salary will cause the company not to trust you (story above notwithstanding because that is pretty ****ty). My company was happy that I told them I had higher offers so they could attempt to keep me. A friend of mine did not give them the same courtesy and they didn't like it.

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If you're even half-ass effective and responsible, and/or worth anything... no company is going to like you leaving. When that happens it hurts the company, projects slow down, other take on more work, or do that guy's job (probably not as well in the short-term).

Folks leaving companies are never 'liked.'

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Blaming the employee for leaving validates the employee leaving. If they leave for more money you should have been proactive or accept you couldn't fairly pay market. Anything else is purely lip service.

If you value them, comunicate, and compensate, the chances of them leaving are extremely low.

Like most of O&G I hadn't seen a raise in 2 years even though my reviews were tops of my peers. Considering lots of our peers are no longer employed, there are worse things. They found a way to move me to a different group with work and a promotion in title (small pay bump) and they communicated they wanted to keep me. It was enough for me to stop looking external during hard times.

Would I entertain an offer if I was pursued? sure, we could use the money since my daughter was born the month oil started down. However, I'm no longer actively looking.

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You can counter with something like asking what the salary range is for the position, etc. The recruiter's job is to hire you for as little as possible. Your job is to get hired for as much as possible. It's all a negotiation.

Once you provide your current salary, you've anchored yourself in the negotiation.

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A recruiter's job isn't to hire for as little as possible. That's a horrible way for a company to attract talent in so many ways and good companies don't view it this way.

Congrats!

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Lets say you give you notice after being offered a raise and promotion at another company. Current company gives you slightly larger raise and matches position in title only and says responsibilities matching that title to follow in a year or so.

I have heard in the past under no circumstance accept a counter offer... oh wise B&I board, what do you think?

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They all are working at CarMax now once the employer timely extracted their revenge. If you resign and don't follow through, you made a poor decision to begin. Never look back if respect and job security are important to you.

That's not the same was turning in a resignation and being counter offered.

Staring down the barrel of this scenario right now. Like most situations I don't think there is a one size fits all approach.

Does your current company know you are looking to leave?

Yes. Submitted my resignation and they are working to try and change my mind.

You're the only one who will know what's best, but more often than not they are worried about short-term hiccups related to you leaving rather than your future growth within the company. A year later, after they have trained up others on your responsibilities, they'll railroad you since they know you put your own best interests over the company's best interests.

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they'll railroad you since they know you put your own best interests over the company's best interests.

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I think it's ridiculous that people think like this (though clearly many do). We're capitalists right? Companies will dump employees any time it's expedient, so why shouldn't employees also be ruthless about it?

Also, sometimes people get offers that they weren't necessarily out looking for. Good people tend to get cold calls.

I think it really depends on the relationship you have with your superiors at your current job. I'm a firm believer in that there is no "one size fits all" answer for these scenarios.

If its a small to mid sized company, and you frame it up like you weren't necessarily looking but a great opportunity fell in your lap, that may not draw as much heat from your currently employer.

But if you actually resign, put in your notice, and then accept a last minute hail mary counter, thats entirely different.