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Sherman's OL about gone

19,087 Views | 159 Replies | Last: 8 yr ago by Magpie
ABATTBQ11
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AG
It's more than record. Sherm's teams' stats showed a lot of improvement from year to year after Fran left him with a hodgepodge of players. In that 6-6 year 4, yes, we did give up big leads we shouldn't have, but we were competitive against every team we played. He also had us tied for first in our division in year 3. Given a year 5, Sherman probably would have done much better.

In the last two years, what losses have we even been close in? Missouri and LSU last year? As bad as Sherman's second half collapses in a single season were, Sumlins inability to even compete in games is worse IMO. If this program was improved under Sumlin, we shouldn't be seeing blowouts like 59-0 or 23-3 and losing to a less than mediocre Auburn 26-10 in years 3 and 4. Our record may be the same as last year, but this team looks worse if anything.
chipotle
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quote:
but we were competitive against every team we played

except OU
Jarrin' Jay
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I see there is alot of reading comprehension problems here.

Deputy Travis Junior, I clearly stated that depth of defensive recruiting was a problem for Sherman, which is why our 2013 defense was so bad and even into 2014. However, he recruited and developed the ENTIRE 2012 defense, which was a very good defense.

I was and remain pro-Sumlin. I advocated his hire and still think he can do good things at A&M, but there were warning signs last year that are being magnified this season. You bet your a*** I am POd at Sumlin right now. The Auburn loss was unacceptable, scoring 4 total TDs in 5 SEC games (4 losses and Vandy) is unacceptable. But we had several unacceptable losses in 2011 also, of course.

Those arguing overall record, that is not really a good measuring stick. Our team and roster was so bad in 2008 nobody could have won, not even Saban with Meyer as OC. Typically in college when a coach is fired the talent level is not good, so when the new coach takes over if he struggles out of the gate it is hard to put that on the new coach in year 1. As a reminder Saban went 6-6 in his first year at Alabama and lost to Louisiana-Monroe, a game I was at.

Much like John Blake to Stoops, that was not the case for the Sherman-Sumlin transition. Sumlin inherited the best OL in the country, and great skill position players across the board. All credit to Sumlin and KK for naming Johnny the starter and developing the offense around his talent.

If you take your maroon Aggie glasses off and look at it objectively, there is absolutely no doubt about the fact this team under Sumlin is either less talented or less well coached than the team he inherited. Is it talent, is it scheme, is it development? I don't know. But if you are going to give Sumlin 100% of the credit for 2012 when not one of the players was recruited by him (other than maybe some bit STs roles) I don't know how you reconcile that with 2015. On the evidence of 2015, 2012 was clearly more about the OL, #2, and Kliff than it was Sumlin and his system. If it was all Sumlin and his system why does is his offense in Year 4 with 5* QBs and 4 and 5* WRs and no RBs whatsoever so poor? You tell me.

Regardless, 2016 will tell us all we need to know, I don't think there can be much argument about that.

At this point its not about comparing one coach to another, might as well compare him to Fran or RC, or Gene Stallings. The only reason to bring up Sherman is he was the predecessor and was the personnel architect of the 2012 team and developed most of the 2012 team - though admittedly #2 never played for Sherman as he needed to RS but it was known he was tearing it up on the scout team. And no I don't think Sherman names Johnny the starter as he would have played too much outside of the system.

If you ask a knowledgeable THIRD PARTY college football fan who is not an A&M fan or SEC fan to look at Sumlin and his 4 years and draw a conclusion or ask a question, they will ask the same thing, why was it better in year 1 than year 3 and year 4 and what is the reason for that.
chipotle
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Those arguing overall record, that is not really a good measuring stick.

It's THE measuring stick.
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Jarrin' Jay
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AG
41-25 ROAD loss to #7 actually looks about the same as 41-20 HOME loss to Bama in 2015, IMHO.

And that OU game wasn't over at halftime like the Bama game.

Too much trust in Ryan Tannehill who had 3 or 4 INTs that game, not enough reliance on the running game. Same thing in cow loss to end the season. But that is how an NFL system works.
chipotle
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Fun fact: 191-96 was our score against OU in those 4 years.
ABATTBQ11
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AG
You do understand the meanings of progression and regression, right?
Jarrin' Jay
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Tom, absolutely 1000% agree and I walked out of the stadium thinking it would get Sherman canned, due to the nature of the loss and what they game meant as far as last Big 12 game, last cow game, etc.

We could have run 3 times and punted on EVERY possession in the 2nd half and won. Ryan Tannehill had NFL talent and could make all the throws, but that doesn't mean you do it just to do it, just manage the game and win. But that is not an NFL system, and Tannehill had autonomy to change the play at the LOS.

That was a limitation of Sherman, to manage the game like an NFL team. An NFL team up by two scores with a defense that is dominating will not stop throwing the ball and trying to score and rack up yards. In college, you can do the opposite and still win if the other team is so bad on offense you don't really need to do anything more than you have already done to get the lead.

Look at our game vs Bama this year. After 1Q Bama just farted around the field with a big lead and waited for us to make a mistake until the punt return. Then they scored another TD to ice it.
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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quote:
quote:
Those arguing overall record, that is not really a good measuring stick.

It's THE measuring stick.
Bear Bryant first year was 1-9 - hard to overcome in 4 years for anybody !
Jarrin' Jay
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AG
Maybe we just need more time for Sumlin recruits to develop. Recruiting has been upgraded across the board with the exception of OL and LB and RB which has been pretty poor that must get better. It will get better with Chief as the LB coach. OL is still a big ? and the main culprit for an under-performing offense. I think WR is a push but we have talent there. RB talent was good last year (injury and a RS) and is good in this next class (another Williams who looks good).

I'll just close this by saying I hope I am wrong and to be proven wrong. Sumlin is not a bad coach, but IMHO he's not a great coach, he's just a coach, a guy with a whistle and clip-board and access to a helicopter. He is not what we thought after 2012, but also likely not what we thought after 2015 and how we feel now. We have suffered some really bad losses in 2014 and 2015 which is not always about the score, Auburn 2015 was worse than Bama 2014 IMHO.

I am PRO-Sumlin overall. But for those who don't know I am a born and raised Bama fan, A&M alum, and have season tix to both. So maybe I am just being too harsh in viewing Sumlin and A&M vs. Saban and Bama.

This thread probably needs to be locked.

BTHO Bowl Opponent!!!
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ABATTBQ11
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AG
quote:
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You do understand the meanings of progression and regression, right?
You do understand the meanings of horrible coach that got lucky because someone else recruited Johnny/Mike/Swope and can't develop an oline or QB vs an actual coach right?
Yes. Yes I do.
Deputy Travis Junior
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not impressed with Sumlin. He is supposed to be an offensive guru, yet he's transformed an offense that was loaded at every position to one that's well below average according to basically every metric. His system is simplistic at best and a confused, aimless mess at worst (I think it's the second. we haven't had an offensive identity for going on 2 seasons). At this point, I'm not convinced he has what it takes to turn things around. The way our offense continued to flail was pretty telling. Some people will say "He's a CEO coach! He lets his coordinators do their jobs!" I'd respond that if a CEO sees a subordinate flailing and failing, and doesn't step in to help, he's a crummy CEO. So he either didn't step in to help a very young, under-qualified OC or he did and failed himself. Both are bad.

So yea I'm not impressed with Sumlin, but that still doesn't mean anything with regards to Sherman. He did a few things at an exceptionally high level, but that doesn't/didn't make him a good college head coach. "Well I'll load up the OL and offense with talent, but fail pretty epically at defensive recruiting and continue as the offensive play caller even though it's obvious I'm not good at it" is not the attitude that a HC should have. Head coaches need to be able to recognize their weaknesses and delegate those responsibilities to people who can handle them at a high level. Sherman was utterly incapable of that, and it rightly cost him his job. We were NEVER going to win a NC under him or even contend for one honestly. MAYBE we could have forced an OC on him at gunpoint after season 4 and that would have fixed the offensive issues, but I doubt it. That also leaves the pretty awful defensive recruiting issues.

I will say that I don't agree with the assumption that Showers undoubtedly would have started over Manziel. Rossley was the QB coach, and he was head over heels in love with Manziel's game.
yO daDDie
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quote:
If you take your maroon Aggie glasses off and look at it objectively, there is absolutely no doubt about the fact this team under Sumlin is either less talented or less well coached than the team he inherited. Is it talent, is it scheme, is it development? I don't know.
The exercise you did to look at two sides of the ball, O and D, then what has happened over the past 4 years is pretty easy to 'see'.

The '12 D had a good foundation of Jr's / Sr's and no depth, which showed up in '13 and '14. But it also had a scheme which was 'read and react' which we can see from just one year under an experienced SEC co-ord is not how you stop or stall O's in the SEC. That trend of attacking D's goes all the way back to Spurrier in the 90's.

The O is simpler. MS was an OC, he had stockpiled the O for three years (and didn't take care of the D side of the ball). Sumlin continued that recruiting work. But in '12 the SYSTEM, the actually scheme and execution was nearly textbook Air Raid. In '13 it changed when KK left and began a slow disassembly in '14 and rolled into a total collapse in '15.

Sumlin corrected the D after '14 and the results showed up this year. So in that sense the D 'improvement' was a result of all three: coaching and scheme and player development.


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But if you are going to give Sumlin 100% of the credit for 2012 when not one of the players was recruited by him (other than maybe some bit STs roles) I don't know how you reconcile that with 2015.

On the evidence of 2015, 2012 was clearly more about the OL, #2, and Kliff than it was Sumlin and his system. If it was all Sumlin and his system why does is his offense in Year 4 with 5* QBs and 4 and 5* WRs and no RBs whatsoever so poor? You tell me.
This is the second part of the two sides of the ball.

When KK left, the next year with top OL talent, nearly the same WR talent, the system started to flutter. With KK gone, and CM in charge, the scheme went from 'let Johnny be Johnny' (Pure Air Raid) to "lets try to get him to work from the pocket more". Big mistake for him, BUT also setting the tone for getting away from the Air Raid. Go back to Leach's years at iTT, people observed "His offense is 'easy' it's just "plug and play". Right. Well...partly correct. His scheme was about simplicity and execution at a very high level. How did that '12 scheme look? simplicity and execution...at a very high level. Sure he could plug in a new guy...because EVERY QB did exactly the same thing: execute at a very high level his basic Air Raid concepts...A&M has not been THERE in 3 years...since KK left.

The reigns were handed off to Spav in '14. That same year defensively the system on that side of the ball was broken and coming into clear focus but the O issues were clouded; the first half looked nice but then derailed by the drinking preferences of the starter and second half with the performance over the last five games of his replacement. Coming into '15 off those 5 starts by KA which looked pretty good, the stage was set...but the LSU game when the O was basically ineffective; all the warts showed in that game - 140 yds passing...80yds rushing. The pre-cursor of collapse actually...but it took 5 games into the '15 season to be realized.

That's what happened. It's retrospective and that does not either a) change the result or b) take the load off Sumlins shoulders.

Today it IS about coaching and development. And it's also about either resurrecting the SAME scheme which was in place in '12 or doing something different. It's my opinion that the O has drifted away from the Air Raid because of the guy directly responsible for it which is JS AND Sumlin doesn't get a pass because the whole enchilada is on his plate. Yea, he allowed it to happen.

It is what it is and yes "it" is about 'coaching' which means top down. And it's incumbent on KS to fix it.



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ABATTBQ11
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AG
If you think Sumlin is a good coach after the last two years, God help you...
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Magpie
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Been saying this for weeks, bring him back as OL coach and offensive consultant in charge of player development or something. But OL for sure.
 
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