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zooguy96
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5:38p, 5/10/24
So, trying to decide which PhD program to go into. Will not have to pay for school (new employer benefit), which is why I'm pursuing it.

Considering:

Wildlife Science
Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
Natural Resources

Purpose - always trying to learn, and to be able to teach on the college level before and after retirement. Have about 5-6 years professional field experience performing endangered species, plant, and water quality surveys.

Already have:

BS - Wildlife Fisheries - Aquaculture
MA - Education - Curriculum and Instruction

Thoughts? I know there are some PhD's out there.
I know a lot about a little, and a little about a lot.
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Morpholino
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In reply to zooguy96 • 6:28p, 5/10/24
AG
Will you be wanting to work your normal day job AND do a PhD?
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Howdy Dammit
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6:34p, 5/10/24
AG
None. Academia is pretty worthless imo.
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Mathguy64
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In reply to zooguy96 • 6:44p, 5/10/24
AG
What is your intended study area?

A BS is a general degree. It's very broad and not very deep. An MS gives you an introduction to higher level information while giving you very good understanding of content in a BS. A PhD gives you very good understanding of content across the MS level and extreme understanding in a specific content area.

What you are really interested or what you really want to learn about and study at the deepest level will determine what department and/or college you attend. What may be in Dept A at one college will be in Dept B of another.

So decide what you want to really dig into and that will answer your question.
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Deerdude
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6:44p, 5/10/24
Here I thought we were talking fence work. Used PHD just last week to dig up a busted waterline beside a trough.
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zooguy96
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In reply to Morpholino • 6:47p, 5/10/24
Morpholino said:
Will you be wanting to work your normal day job AND do a PhD?


Yes. Slowly.
I know a lot about a little, and a little about a lot.
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zooguy96
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 6:49p, 5/10/24
Mathguy64 said:
What is your intended study area?

A BS is a general degree. It's very broad and not very deep. An MS gives you an introduction to higher level information while giving you very good understanding of content in a BS. A PhD gives you very good understanding of content across the MS level and extreme understanding in a specific content area.

What you are really interested or what you really want to learn about and study at the deepest level will determine what department and/or college you attend. What may be in Dept A at one college will be in Dept B of another.

So decide what you want to really dig into and that will answer your question.


Thanks. That's helpful.
I know a lot about a little, and a little about a lot.
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Shoefly!
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In reply to Deerdude • 6:50p, 5/10/24
AG
Deerdude said:
Here I thought we were talking fence work. Used PHD just last week to dig up a busted waterline beside a trough.
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Morpholino
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In reply to zooguy96 • 7:12p, 5/10/24
AG
zooguy96 said:
Morpholino said:
Will you be wanting to work your normal day job AND do a PhD?


Yes. Slowly.


Gotcha. The PhD students I've had in my lab that also worked another job took the longest to complete their PhDs (6-9years). Just FYI.

Also, you said your current employer will pay for your PhD. Pay for course work, salary, and also the research project itself? If all three then you will be enticing to direct admit into someone's lab (free money is always a good thing in academia :-) ). On the other side of the coin, you might find it hard to find a lab that will take you, knowing that you will not be devoting 100% to the PhD.
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zooguy96
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In reply to Morpholino • 7:25p, 5/10/24
Morpholino said:
zooguy96 said:
Morpholino said:
Will you be wanting to work your normal day job AND do a PhD?


Yes. Slowly.


Gotcha. The PhD students I've had in my lab that also worked another job took the longest to complete their PhDs (6-9years). Just FYI.

Also, you said your current employer will pay for your PhD. Pay for course work, salary, and also the research project itself? If all three then you will be enticing to direct admit into someone's lab (free money is always a good thing in academia :-) ). On the other side of the coin, you might find it hard to find a lab that will take you, knowing that you will not be devoting 100% to the PhD.


I'll be working for a university, so that is why tuition will be free. I am about 30 minutes from Oak Ridge national laboratory, so research projects hopefully wouldn't be an issue.
I know a lot about a little, and a little about a lot.
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Tecolote
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In reply to zooguy96 • 7:50p, 5/10/24
AG
zooguy96 said:
Morpholino said:
zooguy96 said:
Morpholino said:
Will you be wanting to work your normal day job AND do a PhD?


Yes. Slowly.


Gotcha. The PhD students I've had in my lab that also worked another job took the longest to complete their PhDs (6-9years). Just FYI.

Also, you said your current employer will pay for your PhD. Pay for course work, salary, and also the research project itself? If all three then you will be enticing to direct admit into someone's lab (free money is always a good thing in academia :-) ). On the other side of the coin, you might find it hard to find a lab that will take you, knowing that you will not be devoting 100% to the PhD.


I'll be working for a university, so that is why tuition will be free. I am about 30 minutes from Oak Ridge national laboratory, so research projects hopefully wouldn't be an issue.
Professor in mechanical engineering for 30 years - I mean this well and not snarky but you're at a point where you don't know enough yet to realize what you don't yet know. Oak Ridge nearby is only relevant if they sponsor research for the professor you work under. Choosing a PhD topic and finding a PhD advisor is a long process. You've been removed from taking classes and working as a student for a long time and you plan on taking a long time so it will significantly limit what professors will even talk to you about taking you on as your advisor.

Classes are a major part of an MS but a much smaller part of a PhD so the tuition isn't really that big piece of the puzzle. My suggestion to you is to start slow (which you're already going to be doing) and select a general area (I'll use mechanic engineering as an example). The field is very large and you don't know any professors yet. Start by taking a few graduate courses in the different subsets to get back into the academic process and get to know some professors. In time something of interest should come up and you also have a better foundation to start talking to professors in identifying a topic and also an advisor. You'll also see how it goes with balancing it with work. You'll have classes, qualifying exams, etc. before you even get to your research work. You might find like the 99% of people who tried what you're wanting to do that it's not as feasible or as enjoyable or rewarding as you think it will be. Not saying don't do it or don't consider it, but it's rare what you're wanting to do works out like you hope.
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Jason_InfinityRoofer
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In reply to zooguy96 • 8:00p, 5/10/24
I have nothing of value to add but I admire your ambition for misery in the name of learning and teaching. After clawing and scraping through my BS and then doing it again for an MS in geology/geophysics, I vowed "never gain". Sometimes I think that even though I'm not college material, I did get through the system and maybe I could do it again but a PhD would be a new level of frustration for a mind like mine I think.
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BartInLA
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8:54p, 5/10/24
It took me 7 years to graduate but that's the pace I wanted. 1) I was a newlywed and my wife was going to college and I didn't want her to go to school without having to have an outside job so I worked two jobs when I began - had to take less classes 2) I thought I'd get more out of it if I spread it out as I wanted time to reflect and learn deeply.
Some did it in 3 years but they probably went heavy in debt or had someone help pay for it. To me the $ cost were = to the difficulty finding time to study. I took more stat classes than anyone in the program but I love math. I heard when you get a masters you learn how to interpret/read research and after a doctorate you learn how to produce research. I used my doctorate directly in work, as a full time professor, and it's opened doors. Some formal education is way over ranked. A PhD in diversity studies or sociology is a complete joke. Producing great research is the main goal in my mind.
I think you've got to really want the degree because Saturdays & Sundays were nothing but study days. Starting your 3rd year we had no more exams. None. Weird. It was all about writing papers until the end when we had to take 2 intense days of qualifying exams when if passed let us officially begin our dissertation.
Go with your passion. It will be 1/2 way over before you know it.
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zooguy96
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In reply to Tecolote • 9:11p, 5/10/24
Tecolote said:
zooguy96 said:
Morpholino said:
zooguy96 said:
Morpholino said:
Will you be wanting to work your normal day job AND do a PhD?


Yes. Slowly.


Gotcha. The PhD students I've had in my lab that also worked another job took the longest to complete their PhDs (6-9years). Just FYI.

Also, you said your current employer will pay for your PhD. Pay for course work, salary, and also the research project itself? If all three then you will be enticing to direct admit into someone's lab (free money is always a good thing in academia :-) ). On the other side of the coin, you might find it hard to find a lab that will take you, knowing that you will not be devoting 100% to the PhD.


I'll be working for a university, so that is why tuition will be free. I am about 30 minutes from Oak Ridge national laboratory, so research projects hopefully wouldn't be an issue.
Professor in mechanical engineering for 30 years - I mean this well and not snarky but you're at a point where you don't know enough yet to realize what you don't yet know. Oak Ridge nearby is only relevant if they sponsor research for the professor you work under. Choosing a PhD topic and finding a PhD advisor is a long process. You've been removed from taking classes and working as a student for a long time and you plan on taking a long time so it will significantly limit what professors will even talk to you about taking you on as your advisor.

Classes are a major part of an MS but a much smaller part of a PhD so the tuition isn't really that big piece of the puzzle. My suggestion to you is to start slow (which you're already going to be doing) and select a general area (I'll use mechanic engineering as an example). The field is very large and you don't know any professors yet. Start by taking a few graduate courses in the different subsets to get back into the academic process and get to know some professors. In time something of interest should come up and you also have a better foundation to start talking to professors in identifying a topic and also an advisor. You'll also see how it goes with balancing it with work. You'll have classes, qualifying exams, etc. before you even get to your research work. You might find like the 99% of people who tried what you're wanting to do that it's not as feasible or as enjoyable or rewarding as you think it will be. Not saying don't do it or don't consider it, but it's rare what you're wanting to do works out like you hope.


I've been taking some online masters courses in Biology - but point taken. I don't know what I don't know. Correct. Which is why I'm asking for advice. Thanks for yours - very helpful.

Most of my job will be dealing with testing - so I should have some extra time to work on things. Again, I want to take is slow. Half of it will be that I love to learn for the sake of learning.

Also, my job will be working with one dept starting out - but could expand to every dept within the university eventually - so I'd be able to make those professor contacts as part of my job potentially.
I know a lot about a little, and a little about a lot.
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Charismatic Megafauna
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9:17p, 5/10/24
AG
EdD?
Maybe a masters in data science (for something completely different...)
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zooguy96
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In reply to Charismatic Megafauna • 9:20p, 5/10/24
Charismatic Megafauna said:
EdD?
Maybe a masters in data science (for something completely different...)


Yeah, no to the EdD. I'm not interested in teaching education classes. I'm letting my teaching license lapse, as I'm never going back to public school teaching.

The Masters in data science does sound interesting. What could it be used for? (I have no idea).
I know a lot about a little, and a little about a lot.
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Charismatic Megafauna
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In reply to zooguy96 • 9:27p, 5/10/24
AG
zooguy96 said:


The Masters in data science does sound interesting. What could it be used for? (I have no idea).

Literally anything. Applicable to anything from microbial ecology to marketing analytics, but it's sort marketable now and the demand is only going to grow

The idea behind the edD is that it is a fast track out of teaching and into administration.
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curry97
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9:29p, 5/10/24
AG
Piled High and Deep
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zooguy96
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In reply to Charismatic Megafauna • 9:37p, 5/10/24
Charismatic Megafauna said:
zooguy96 said:


The Masters in data science does sound interesting. What could it be used for? (I have no idea).

Literally anything. Applicable to anything from microbial ecology to marketing analytics, but it's sort marketable now and the demand is only going to grow

The idea behind the edD is that it is a fast track out of teaching and into administration.


Well, I'm not teaching any longer. Going to be working at a university in a position related to testing. I wouldn't be interested in anything related to public K-12 education ever again. Unless you meant college administration.
I know a lot about a little, and a little about a lot.
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cupofjoe04
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In reply to Howdy Dammit • 9:58p, 5/10/24
AG
Please ignore- accidentally clicked wrong post to respond to.

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cupofjoe04
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In reply to Morpholino • 9:59p, 5/10/24
AG
Morpholino said:
Will you be wanting to work your normal day job AND do a PhD?


I just finished doing this exact thing. Except in the middle of my program I changed jobs, moved my whole family from CO to TX, and remodeled a house for us to live in. And I graduated on schedule. I wouldn't recommend all of that on top of the PhD and full-time work.

Depending on your job and the program, it doable. With proper planning and discipline, and a VERY understanding family.
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zooguy96
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In reply to cupofjoe04 • 10:01p, 5/10/24
cupofjoe04 said:
Morpholino said:
Will you be wanting to work your normal day job AND do a PhD?


I just finished doing this exact thing. Except in the middle of my program I changed jobs, moved my whole family from CO to TX, and remodeled a house for us to live in. And I graduated on schedule. I wouldn't recommend all of that on top of the PhD and full-time work.

Depending on your job and the program, it doable. With proper planning and discipline, and a VERY understanding family.


It's just the wife and I. She spends a lot of time with her family, so it's doable. Plus, my office is 100 feet from the library.
I know a lot about a little, and a little about a lot.
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ShouldastayedataTm
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10:03p, 5/10/24
BS followed by More of the Same, why in the hell Pile it Higher and Deeper? Unless it is significant money value why do the stress?

Edit to add my employer paid for my MS and it came with a significant pay upgrade, and allowed me to move into healthcare software consulting from hands on patient care nursing. It was financially rewarding. Looked into a PhD, watched the toll it took on my brother as he worked full time, and had a paid PhD program at Texas State. Said nope not my thing. He is now very happy teaching at UW River Falls. He loves it, I was not willing to go through it.
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zooguy96
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In reply to ShouldastayedataTm • 10:14p, 5/10/24
ShouldastayedataTm said:
BS followed by More of the Same, why in the hell Pile it Higher and Deeper? Unless it is significant money value why do the stress?


I enjoy school. It's not been stressful taking the graduate classes. I really enjoy learning new things for the just did the sake of learning.
I know a lot about a little, and a little about a lot.
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AnScAggie
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10:16p, 5/10/24
AG
My thoughts are probably not encouraging, but it will be difficult to have a full time job and do a Ph.D. which requires serious field work and lab time. You can do it, but it will be very hard to do in a timely fashion, so as others have said it will take you twice as long or longer than traditional students to obtain your degree. There are plenty of degrees that you can do almost exclusively online, and still have a full time job but they will be something in the education arena.
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ShouldastayedataTm
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In reply to zooguy96 • 10:25p, 5/10/24
Enjoying learning is one thing, I take classes amd seminars whenever time allows, and do lots of self directed learning. A PhD seems to be a lot of work and effort just for the love of learning. Didn't you just start that new job?
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zooguy96
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In reply to ShouldastayedataTm • 10:28p, 5/10/24
ShouldastayedataTm said:
Enjoying learning is one thing, I take classes amd seminars whenever time allows, and do lots of self directed learning. A PhD seems to be a lot of work and effort just for the love of learning. Didn't you just start that new job?


I start after background check goes through.

But, all the advice is appreciated. I'm in the "thought" stage, not in the "hell bent" on it stage.
I know a lot about a little, and a little about a lot.
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ShouldastayedataTm
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In reply to zooguy96 • 10:36p, 5/10/24
The nice thing is with the new job you can definitely take all the exploration type classes you want to find a topic. That to me would ne awesome. No set degree or timeline just a class here and there scattered all over the learning spectrum.
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fightingfarmer09
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In reply to zooguy96 • 10:56p, 5/10/24
Ecology and Evolutionary Biology.

It has big potential in the academic and research space. Allows you to go into multiple industries as well.

The secret to your PhD is if you want to be a post doc and academic vs an industry expert.

I have never regretted my PhD, only that I wish I had focused on a more "classical" field than one that is more industry focused.

Just remember that at the PhD level you really need to have a drive about curiosity to challenge norms as much as just learning. In a competitive field you will compete with your unique ideas for fellowships and lab slots. A Masters is for "learning" about a field. As a PhD candidate you will be tasked with finding new discoveries in a field. Make sure you consider that.
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Tecolote
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In reply to fightingfarmer09 • 12:34a, 5/11/24
AG
fightingfarmer09 said:
Ecology and Evolutionary Biology.

It has big potential in the academic and research space. Allows you to go into multiple industries as well.

The secret to your PhD is if you want to be a post doc and academic vs an industry expert.

I have never regretted my PhD, only that I wish I had focused on a more "classical" field than one that is more industry focused.

Just remember that at the PhD level you really need to have a drive about curiosity to challenge norms as much as just learning. In a competitive field you will compete with your unique ideas for fellowships and lab slots. A Masters is for "learning" about a field. As a PhD candidate you will be tasked with finding new discoveries in a field. Make sure you consider that.
Very well said!
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Tecolote
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In reply to zooguy96 • 12:46a, 5/11/24
AG
zooguy96 said:
Tecolote said:
zooguy96 said:
Morpholino said:
zooguy96 said:
Morpholino said:
Will you be wanting to work your normal day job AND do a PhD?


Yes. Slowly.


Gotcha. The PhD students I've had in my lab that also worked another job took the longest to complete their PhDs (6-9years). Just FYI.

Also, you said your current employer will pay for your PhD. Pay for course work, salary, and also the research project itself? If all three then you will be enticing to direct admit into someone's lab (free money is always a good thing in academia :-) ). On the other side of the coin, you might find it hard to find a lab that will take you, knowing that you will not be devoting 100% to the PhD.


I'll be working for a university, so that is why tuition will be free. I am about 30 minutes from Oak Ridge national laboratory, so research projects hopefully wouldn't be an issue.
Professor in mechanical engineering for 30 years - I mean this well and not snarky but you're at a point where you don't know enough yet to realize what you don't yet know. Oak Ridge nearby is only relevant if they sponsor research for the professor you work under. Choosing a PhD topic and finding a PhD advisor is a long process. You've been removed from taking classes and working as a student for a long time and you plan on taking a long time so it will significantly limit what professors will even talk to you about taking you on as your advisor.

Classes are a major part of an MS but a much smaller part of a PhD so the tuition isn't really that big piece of the puzzle. My suggestion to you is to start slow (which you're already going to be doing) and select a general area (I'll use mechanic engineering as an example). The field is very large and you don't know any professors yet. Start by taking a few graduate courses in the different subsets to get back into the academic process and get to know some professors. In time something of interest should come up and you also have a better foundation to start talking to professors in identifying a topic and also an advisor. You'll also see how it goes with balancing it with work. You'll have classes, qualifying exams, etc. before you even get to your research work. You might find like the 99% of people who tried what you're wanting to do that it's not as feasible or as enjoyable or rewarding as you think it will be. Not saying don't do it or don't consider it, but it's rare what you're wanting to do works out like you hope.


I've been taking some online masters courses in Biology - but point taken. I don't know what I don't know. Correct. Which is why I'm asking for advice. Thanks for yours - very helpful.

Most of my job will be dealing with testing - so I should have some extra time to work on things. Again, I want to take is slow. Half of it will be that I love to learn for the sake of learning.

Also, my job will be working with one dept starting out - but could expand to every dept within the university eventually - so I'd be able to make those professor contacts as part of my job potentially.
This will sound cold but is part of the truth in getting a PhD. You have consistently stated wanting to do it for the sake of learning. Well, your PhD advisor will spend an enormous amount of time and effort (and likely $ from contacts/grants with deliverables) in your PhD so it has to be a two way street. What will your PhD add to their research program and career efforts in advancing knowledge in their given specialty. It has to fit within their program. If you just keep the "love of learning" and "should have extra time" "and "want to take it slow" there are better ways to keep learning new things.

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AgEng98
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1:29a, 5/11/24
What is the long term goal beyond teaching at the university level? That can be done with a MS in a lecturer position.

A full-on faculty job can be a different beast, depending on the institution, especially at R1's. You're going to have to seriously consider things like P&T, teaching vs research appointment splits (and extension if in Ag), grant writing, etc. It ain't all roses!

And the $64,000 question is... where will you go if your institution doesn't have a position open when you finish or has a policy of not hiring their own PhD grads without external experience?

I'm not trying to throw cold water on your idea. I'm thankful every day that I finished a PhD and the doors it opened for me. I had a great advisor that allowed me to get a glimpse of what the job actually was. It was probably his greatest gift to me. I suspect that you will get that perspective as a staff member, moreso than the typical student toiling away in the lab.
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91AggieLawyer
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In reply to fightingfarmer09 • 4:09a, 5/11/24
AG
fightingfarmer09 said:
Ecology and Evolutionary Biology.

It has big potential in the academic and research space. Allows you to go into multiple industries as well.

The secret to your PhD is if you want to be a post doc and academic vs an industry expert.

I have never regretted my PhD, only that I wish I had focused on a more "classical" field than one that is more industry focused.

Just remember that at the PhD level you really need to have a drive about curiosity to challenge norms as much as just learning. In a competitive field you will compete with your unique ideas for fellowships and lab slots. A Masters is for "learning" about a field. As a PhD candidate you will be tasked with finding new discoveries in a field. Make sure you consider that.

This is good. I would extend this by saying that the MEd you have isn't going to provide much, if anything, to your PhD program. You're still going to have to do somewhere around the 90 hours in the program (typically a PhD is 90 hours beyond a BA/BS/Bxx). A Masters in the field will often cut that down by up to 30. Your online Bio classes will have a greater affect than your Education masters will. Obviously, your school may view this differently than I am predicting.

With that said, I would pick the field that you want to do the research in as 30-ish hours of your PhD is going to be the dissertation. You will spend hundreds, if not thousands, of hours on that so you better want to do everything from reading hundreds of articles and books on the subject for literature review to conducting untold hours of actual research (however your department defines that) and then writing about it. You're going to be hating the process halfway through, so make sure it is a subject you REALLY like.

Not trying to discourage you, but just trying to point you in the right direction. Basically, of the three fields you mention (or any other), what are you most passionate about? If you had my full attention for an hour, what would you want to talk about?

THAT is what you need to go with.
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OnlyForNow
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6:24a, 5/11/24
AG
Zoo, I'm just going to say that this is not a good idea for you buddy.

Since leaving A&M how many different jobs have you had?

I don't think you're committed enough to see it through when you get into a serious argument with your PI over something stupid (and that will happen more than once).


I would advise you to work your new gig, if you've gotten it, for at least a year or two before doing this.
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flyrancher
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7:04a, 5/11/24
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I have a PHD in life. Got a Masters because military advancement required it, but decided a PHD was a useless exercise, if academia was not a goal. If university level instruction is your goal, a PHD is a block to fill, but little more.

If learning is your goal, the last thing you need is a PHD. All that is required is an inquisitive nature and a zest for life. You want to learn about your world and nature? Get a ranch and do all the manual labor yourself! With the internet available, you have all you need for a PHD in life.
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