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Neither has it addressed Christ's promise to his church.

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You're kidding, right?

By how many different people and in how many different ways does this have to be addressed for you exactly?

SiValley brought up a good point earlier. If the Church was apostate while the Apostles were still alive, and the NT canon of scripture wasn't finalized until the 4th century, then how can you trust with all your heart that an apostate church knew which books were canonical in the first place? Wouldn't they have missed some, or added some?

Did St. Jerome or St. Augustine, or St. Polycarp ever write about this Great Apostasy, or did they even know it existed?

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Wouldn't they have missed some, or added some?

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Good question.

From the Articles of Faith:

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8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

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So the Holy Spirt guided an apostate church to correctly assemble the bible (ignoring any translation issues)?

RAB - That seems to be the $64,000 question. If the Catholic Church was apostate, then how could the Holy Spirit guide the Council of Hippo in 393 to choose the correct books of the NT?

Texasag73

I still admire you (no suck up intended). In my view you are right that if there wasn't an apostacy, the Catholic Church would have the neccessary authority and would be Christ's Church upon the earth. I also think that your most recent Pope Johh Paul was an amazing person, who is largely responsible for the fall of communism. Do I think he was an instrument in God's hand for this? Absolutely. Do I think the LDS faith has the authority? Absolutely. Do I think Texasag73 is a classy guy with lots of good wisdom and a Christlike way of disagreeing with others? Also, Absolutely.

About your $64,000 question?

Refer back to my original answer where I bolded, "While many good people and some truth remained". This is from the LDS Church website. I think it is possible that God put some of the right people in right places even with an apostacy, to help ensure that Bible was as accurate as was possible. An apostacy in my way of thinking does not mean everyone, it could just mean a few, but it does mean that authority was lost.

edited to correct your name. I can't really say you are a good guy if I don't even spell your name correctly.



[This message has been edited by bizag (edited 3/27/2006 5:38p).]

Who said they chose ALL the correct books? They were bound to get something right though.

What should they have added or taken away? Even then there was much debate over books like Philemon.

Thanks bizag - But if the Catholic Church somehow lucked out and got the NT books right, then it doesn't sound like a great Apostasy, but maybe a great struggle in the face of the bloody caesars who thought THEY were all gods....

One other question - Did Augustine and Jerome and Polycarp and the other early Christians ever write about this great apostasy, or were they even aware of it?

Who says the "church" did get it "right?"

Yeshua and His disciples only regarded the "Old Testament" books as scripture. The "church" merely accepted the same "Old Testament" books that were accepted by Judaism.

As for the "New Testament" books, on what basis do you claim that any should be considered scripture? The only one which claims to be scripture is Revelation.

Texasags73,

I read a little about these three fathers and they seem to be good people doing their best in the midst of adversity. I can't tell you I have read much about these three, because I haven't. I do know there are some items I disagree with in Catholic doctrine (the biggest being infant baptism, celibate clergy, and prayer through Saints) that lead me to believe, along with study of my own religion, and prayer that there was an apostacy, even while there were many that were striving to do there best. I can however understand your why you have believe so stronlgy in your religion. I especially liked Augustines story and his mother's show of faith. Do you have good links for more history. These fathers are fascinating.

So you think all NT books should be dumped except for Revelation?

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So you think all NT books should be dumped except for Revelation?

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What is the basis that God gave us for determining whether or not a book is "inspired?" I think that should be examined.

It seems to me that everyone is starting off with the assumption that the early "church fathers "got it right" with the books of the "New Testament," and then exclaim "Wow! They must have been led by the Spirit to have gotten it right!" My question is: How do you know they got it "right?" Don't start out with a baseless assumption. Prove the assumption to be correct.

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 3/27/2006 6:19p).]

These are some good and thoughtful questions. I think what transpired in the 1930s whem a representative of the Catholic Church asked for and received permission to live among the saints for a couple of weeks. A dinner was held in his honor. His purpose in coming was to find out how the saints had been able to weather the Great Depression with the welfare program the LDS Church had in place with the amazing aspect that no Federal assistance was to be taken by the members.

I quote from Elder Orson F. Whitney of the Council of the Twelve Apostles:

"Many years agao a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church came to Utah and spoke from the stand of the Salt Lake Tabernacle. I became well-acquainted with him and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen languages at his tongue's end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy. One day he said to me: 'you Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don't even know the STRENGTH of your own position. The is issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that is all there is to it. The Protestants haven't a leg to stand on. For, if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are APOSTATES whom we cut off long ago. You can not take a live branch from a dead tree! If we have the apostlic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is NO need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism's attitude is the ONLY consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the Gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the Gospel in latter days."

The question is can a living branch be taken from a dead tree? If the original Church had gone astray, could a reformation restore its power? Or must there be a new planting, a "restoration"?

At dinner he was gently reminded that we did understand the strengh of our position and we knew we were on the right side of the question.

RAB91,

In regard to Jesus being born of the Virgin Mary:

Please go to lds.og, hit search at the top and write in both Conference Talks and Gospel Library Archive "virgin birth."

You will find numerous talks and scripture supporting the belief of a virgin birth. I think you are making some assumptions to fit what Brigham Young said as "having fun." What I saw was that Jesus was the literal son of Heavenly Father. Only God would be able to do that while Mary remained a virgin. No one is disputing the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

bizags - Check out http://www.catholicfirst.com/churchfathersindex.cfm for all of your early church father needs...

Bracy - The Church invoked the Holy Spirit to help it decide which books were canonical. They also threw out a lot of other books which sent mixed messages about Christianity, because a house divided against itself cannot stand.

SAINTS ALIVE !!!!!!!!!

Thanks!

texasag73:

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Bracy - The Church invoked the Holy Spirit to help it decide which books were canonical. They also threw out a lot of other books which sent mixed messages about Christianity, because a house divided against itself cannot stand.

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This isn't the method that God gave us in His Word for making this determination.

Can you prove to me that the Holy Spirit guided their decision-making process?

Who was the father of Jesus? Did He have an earthly flesh father?

Which of the doctrines that I listed are flawed? I got them from my discussions with other Mormons.

You can argue apostasy; there was already trouble with truth that Paul addressed over and over. What I don't see, nor can anyone show me, is this idea that Mormon beliefs were alive then, but were lost until Smith.

Your basic doctrines are not in the New Testament Scriptures, nor in early church history. Therefore, they are true?

[This message has been edited by The Lone Stranger (edited 3/27/2006 9:59p).]

huh?

I don't understand your last comment. I'll check back tommorow.

Why not go straight to the source rather than get mine or some elses intrepretation. It is very easy to go to LDS.org and search.

RAB91 Wrote:

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So the Holy Spirt guided an apostate church to correctly assemble the bible (ignoring any translation issues)?

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You assume too much, I don't believe the Holy Ghost guided any part of the Church after the death of the Apostles. I think the clergy were left on their own.

If you read enough of my posts you will notice I refer to certin scriptures over and over, one of them is Amos 3:7, this scripture plainly sets a standard of how God reveals truth.

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7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

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If it didn't involve an Apostle or Prophet then it didn't come from God.

You can claim that they involked the Holy Spirit but this is not the Pattern God uses to lead his church. Any revelation about something as important as the church canon must come from a Prophet.

BTW since we are on the subject I will say that these were not stupid men nor were they evil they were very bright and they organized the Bible in a plain pattern.

First they seperated the scriptures into two sets those before the birth of Christ and those after.
Next they divided them into three catagories: The Law, History, and Prophecy.

The Law of the OT was the 5 books of Moses, then came all the history books like judges and kings then came all the books written by the Prophets.

They did the same with the NT:

The Law = The 4 Gospels
The History = Book of Acts and Letters of the Apostles
Prophecy = Revelations.

There are some great books about the pains taken to preserve the Bible and though I maintain these were uninspired men they did their best and we should all be greatful for their work.

[This message has been edited by Hank Hill (edited 3/28/2006 6:04a).]

The Lone Stranger -Jesus had an "earthly" or "mortal" mother. Jesus's Father was God the eternal Father and Mary conceived Jesus as a virgin. She was moved upon by the Holy Ghost to begin this process. Jesus thus had a "dual" nature. When I read about the planting of eggs, sperm, etc. to help a woman conceive, it is no mystery to me that God, who acts on a much higher law than we do, can bring this about.

"The Mormon" beliefs that were alive then are the Gospel of Jesus Christ as it has been restored and preached today. I would inviste you to list any principles of the Gospel that the LDS Church teaches that does not have some scriptual evidence to support them -in spite of the fact that many plain and precious truths are missing from the Bible when is was finally assembled.

When Christ appeared to the boy Joseph Smith, that was the fullfilment of the scripture in the New Testament Acts 3: 19-21 which reads: "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins maybe blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, whom before waspreached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS, which God hath spoken by the mouth of ALL his holy prophets SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN."

That appearance to the boy Joseph began the "restitution of all things". Not only did God the Father and Jesus Christ appear to Joseph but the Angel Moroni, John the Baptist, Peter, James & John, Elijah, Moses, Elias, etc. In fact every prophet returned from the time of and including Adam, and confered upon Joseph every key of authority that they held in every dispensation since the world began!

I marveled at this when I was investigating the Church, for I knew it was false and all I had to do was follow the money trial and I would find the fraud! I could not believe that a simple frontier boy, so uneducated would make his fraud so complex and multifaceted because the more people you introduce into the equation, the bigger the chance for error. You could imagine that this alone began to reshape my thinking!

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You assume too much, I don't believe the Holy Ghost guided any part of the Church after the death of the Apostles. I think the clergy were left on their own

and

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

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You can't have it both ways. Did they luck into it? It looks like that #8 says your church agrees with what is in the bible.

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If it didn't involve an Apostle or Prophet then it didn't come from God.

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It involved the successors to the aposteles, and a prophet was not needed. That is why we have the holy spirt.

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But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you.

and

John 14:16,26 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever......... But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

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God sent the Holy Spirit to guide his church, and the spirit inspired them when the assembled the bible.

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You can't have it both ways. Did they luck into it? It looks like that #8 says your church agrees with what is in the bible.

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Did they "luck into" what? How do you know they "got it right?"

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God sent the Holy Spirit to guide his church, and the spirit inspired them when the assembled the bible.

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How do you know they were guided by the Spirit? What method did God give us to make that determination?

Quotes from the founding fathers of mormonism on the Virgin Birth.

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Brigham Young once stated: "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p.51).

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"They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches no such thing! Neither does the Bible" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.19). - Joseph Fielding Smith

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Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., said: "The birth of the Savior was a natural occurrence unattended with any degree of mysticism, and the Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit" (Religious Truths Defined, p.44). The late President Joseph Fielding Smith declared: "Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.18).

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"These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp.546-47).

"And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, ... Christ is the Son of Man, meaning that his Father (the Eternal God!) is a Holy Man" (p.742).

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President Brigham Young had this to say concerning the birth of Christ: "The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband" (Deseret News, October 10, 1866).

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Brigham Young added that "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p.115).

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And one final good one from Brigham Young

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I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. I will repeat a little anecdote. I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon the subject, when I replied, to this idea—"if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children, to be palmed upon the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p.51).

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Can you prove to me that the Holy Spirit guided their decision-making process?

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Bracy - I have to believe He did, because of all of the millions of lives that have been changed by reading the NT. And we have Jesus' promise to have the guidance of the Holy Spirit until the end of the earth, which means that from 33 AD until now, the Holy Spirit has been guiding the Church. And since Jesus promised it in scripture, that is proof enough for me.



Acts 1:8: But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Sama'ria and to the end of the earth."

Being begoten by the Holy Ghost and being "moved on" by the Holy Ghost are two very different things!

ibm is right - There are different degrees of having the Holy Spirit. The fullest way is to receive the Baptism of the Spirit, like the apostles and Mary did at Pentecost, because you not only speak in tongues and heal others, but you lose your fear of speaking out to the secular world for Jesus Christ.

texasag73:

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Bracy - I have to believe He did, because of all of the millions of lives that have been changed by reading the NT.

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How is this proof that the early "church" father "got it right?" Maybe some of the books are "inspired," and maybe some are not. How do you know that there aren't some books that should have been included but were not, and how do you know that some books were included that shouldn't have been?

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And we have Jesus' promise to have the guidance of the Holy Spirit until the end of the earth, which means that from 33 AD until now, the Holy Spirit has been guiding the Church. And since Jesus promised it in scripture, that is proof enough for me.

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Here, you're using the "New Testament" to prove itself. One must first believe that the "New Testament" is inspired in order to believe that "we have Jesus' promise to have the guidance of the Holy Spirit until the end of the earth."

That's like me writing a book and then quoting my book as "proof" that my book is inspired.

My question is: Can you prove that the "New Testament" is inspired in the first place?

Can you prove that Jesus lived? Can you prove that being a Messaniac Jew is the only way to salvation? Can you prove there even is salvation or a God?

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Can you prove that Jesus lived? Can you prove that being a Messaniac Jew is the only way to salvation? Can you prove there even is salvation or a God?

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I never said that being a "Messianic Jew is the only way to salvation."

Sorry - the most correct way?

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Sorry - the most correct way?

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I believe it is closer to the message that the apostles taught than traditional Christianity is, but that doesn't mean that every Messianic today is "saved" any more than every Messianic of the 1st-century was "saved."

Mormon Doctrine = one persons interpretation of doctrine, not God's word.

Virgin Birth = no sex involved

Yes, I believe in the miracle of the Virgin birth. If you are so certain we don't believe go to LDS.org, as I suggested, hit the search button, type in virgin birth in either the conference talks section or Gospel Library Archive. The quotes you listed do not say Mary was not a virgin. Giving birth to a child in a natural way to a person who had flesh and bones does not say sex, it says miracle.

Do you beleive in the miracle of the virgin birth?

Here is one quote from a search on LDS.org from a talk given by Ezra Taft Benson:

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The birth of Jesus Christ was not ordinary. Though he had a mortal mother, Jesus did not have a human father. Sacred scripture identifies the divine father of Jesus Christ: “He shall be born of Mary, … she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God” (Alma 7:10; italics added).

Yes, God was the father of His fleshly tabernacle, and Mary—a mortal woman and a virgin—was His mother. He is, therefore, the only person born who rightfully deserves the title “the Only Begotten Son of God.”

Because His father was God, Jesus Christ had power which no other human has had before or since. He was God in the flesh—even the Son of God.

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Can you prove that the "New Testament" is inspired in the first place?

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Yes, it changed my life - I went from worst to first after I stopped fornicating for the devil and started living for God. The Word had as much to do with that as anything in my life.