Catholic vs Protestant: A Few Questions

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Zobel
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AG
quote:
Man's understanding God through the study of his creation sounds identical to the essence/energeia belief of the East, even if St.TA does take his thought exercise a bit too far.

went back and reread this. Not sure I agree. The essence energies distinction is not that creation is energy. Study of creation is not a study of energy. Energeia is "parts behind [around] God" as St Gregory of Nyssa said. It's not creation because it is uncreated; it is God. This is why God is Love because the energeia of God is love. Gods energies are God, so when we partake of Grace (i.e. Energy) we partake of God, and become partakers of the divine nature as St Peter said.

We don't believe in created grace because grace is energy and the energies of God are uncreated. So there's lots of rough patches there.

Now, God's energies fill all things and sustain all things and cause all things. In that sense we can see God in creation because all created things are sustained by Him and created by His Logos.
Zosima
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quote:
quote:
Man's understanding God through the study of his creation sounds identical to the essence/energeia belief of the East, even if St.TA does take his thought exercise a bit too far.

went back and reread this. Not sure I agree. The essence energies distinction is not that creation is energy. Study of creation is not a study of energy. Energeia is "parts behind [around] God" as St Gregory of Nyssa said. It's not creation because it is uncreated; it is God. This is why God is Love because the energeia of God is love. Gods energies are God, so when we partake of Grace (i.e. Energy) we partake of God, and become partakers of the divine nature as St Peter said.

We don't believe in created grace because grace is energy and the energies of God are uncreated. So there's lots of rough patches there.

Now, God's energies fill all things and sustain all things and cause all things. In that sense we can see God in creation because all created things are sustained by Him and by His Logos.


I feel like TA is taken out of context with regards to created grace. TA first distinguishes Grace as a gift of God's love for us. Now, a gift has to have a giver and a receiver. So you really cant have a gift until someone actually recieves the gift. So he only calls it created Grace because we are created beings and we get partake in the divine. TA does not argue that God's love is not a part of who he is or that it His love is created, but rather it becomes a Grace because created man is unworthilty able to partake in the Divine.

I realize that this is a small distinction, but that is what TA does. I feel like there are several instances where just the words the East and West used are not quite understood in the same manner.

I would like to make that clearer, but that is the best I can do on a phone.
Zobel
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AG
Hmm. I'm not sure it matters, or I'm not understanding.

One, who is to say that the baseline assumption of grace being constrained to the form of a gift is real or accurate?

And two, why does the portion of his grace that is "sent" or "earmarked" for a created being in time necessarily created at that moment? St Maximos (and St Gregory of Nyssa) teach that we are portions of God, pieces of the Logos, pre-known and foreordained before time. All the grace that is for us has no reason to be created ever, even as a gift.

And I don't agree that man is unable to partake of uncreated divine. This is what grace is, this is what mysteries are. That's the whole beauty of it, that we become god by participating in God. The light of tabor is uncreated, it eternally is.

His energies are things about him, all means by which we perceive him, because his essence is unknowable. Grace is just another word for God's energies.

When I read this it's shocking, a little. The first thing that comes to mind is communion. When we take communion, you would say this is a created grace? It makes me sad, it's such a lower standard or lesser miracle of divine condescension....
Zosima
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quote:
Hmm. I'm not sure it matters, or I'm not understanding.

One, who is to say that the baseline assumption of grace being constrained to the form of a gift is real or accurate?

And two, why does the portion of his grace that is "sent" or "earmarked" for a created being in time necessarily created at that moment? St Maximos (and St Gregory of Nyssa) teach that we are portions of God, pieces of the Logos, pre-known and foreordained before time. All the grace that is for us has no reason to be created ever, even as a gift.

And I don't agree that man is unable to partake of uncreated divine. This is what grace is, this is what mysteries are. That's the whole beauty of it, that we become god by participating in God. The light of tabor is uncreated, it eternally is.

His energies are things about him, all means by which we perceive him, because his essence is unknowable. Grace is just another word for God's energies.

When I read this it's shocking, a little. The first thing that comes to mind is communion. When we take communion, you would say this is a created grace? It makes me sad, it's such a lower standard or lesser miracle of divine condescension....


You can say his definition of grace is wrong, but those are the distinctions he makes at the beginning. In Latin, the word for Grace does carry a connotation for a gift freely given. So you can say that distinction is not there, but these are the distinctions he makes at the beginning.

He does not believe that some portion of God's love was all of a sudden created at that moment. God's love has not changed, it is a part of his energies. He just believes that grace is are meant for another so it is not a grace until it is given to another. I believe his words were " it is a created grace in as much as we are created beings", but that is a rough quote because I have not read this passage in sometime. I have no problem saying that man gets to partake in the uncreated divine.

Using Aquinas' strict definition of created Grace I would not have a problem with saying that. Sacraments allow us to use material things to partake in the uncreated divine. So the Eucharist was not always available to those before Christ, so in some sense it was created. Sacraments allow us to partake in the eternal divine, but they themselves were given to us by God as a means to grow closer to Him.

TA and hopefully all Catholics believe that God's love is eternal and immutable. The only change is on our part and how we receive His grace.

You can argue it is a pointless and stupid distinction, but this is the distinction he makes. I feel the whole disagreement arises from understanding words differently. I have no problem saying we get to participate in the uncreated divine. I wanted to name my son ( I got vetoed) Athanasius because of how impactful On the Incanation was in my Christian life.

This is probably unclear still. It is tough for me to develop a coherent thought on my phone. I will re-read these questions in the Summa again and get on an actual computer to help make it clearer tonight.


Zobel
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AG
Yeah, if we're saying <<portion of God x>> is eternal but when it's "ready" to be given to person it becomes grace, I don't see the point of the distinction.

But, need to be careful when we use the word energy because the Greek term is loaded and probably not well understood by Aquinas or the West in general (including St Augustine). To my knowledge the essence / energy distinction as formally expressed by St Gregory Palamas has no direct analog and was basically rejected in the West.

On the other hand the East holds no regard for the starting point of actus Purus. To us, actus purus is a confusion or conflation of essence and energies. If we say the essence is actus purus it makes God either impersonal and unknowable in a real way, or robs him of his transcendence and incomprehensibility.

If it were this simple there wouldn't be centuries of steady disagreement over it.
Zobel
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AG
Sorry this got super derailed. My fault.
Win At Life
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AG
Let me try to get this thread more back on the original OP by attempting to answer one of his questions:
quote:
do you view the salvation of a protestant to be in question?
From the Catholic Catechism:

[url=http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a3.htm%5b/quote]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a3.htm[/quote[/url]

"2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin."

Oddly, this is the only time "grave sin" is ever used in the Catechism and it is never defined further. They define mortal sin and venial sin, but never grave sin.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm

They seem to deliberately avoid the definition of grave sin, yet use it to one who does not attend their Sunday Eucharist in a way that that surely seems to imply spiritual peril.
BustUpAChiffarobe
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AG
mortal and grave sin are the same thing essentially.

Try Catechism 1854 on
Zosima
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I read the question where he addresses grace. He calls it created in response to an objection. He is making the claim that God's grace can have a qualitative aspect on us, i.e. a soul can experience more a less of God's grace. The objection was that grace is created for each person, which makes us a "new creature". This is where Thomas says grace is created inasmuch as creatures are created but he adds a few qualifications before that.

I think the West has rejected the essence-energies concept out of unfamiliarity. It does not help that the theology was not really flushed out until after the Schism. I feel like the west and the east after the Schism did not try and understand the intricacies of the other. I do think some more modern RCC theologians have warmed up to the concept. I am not familiar enough to speak on the subject, but I have read that the essence-energies should major stumbling block for the West.

Zobel
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AG
By itself, no. But the understanding of it is the root of understanding Patriarch Gregory's objection to Beccus and really St Photios' rejection of the filioque. So, you wind up at the schism again.
Win At Life
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AG
quote:
mortal and grave sin are the same thing essentially.

Try Catechism 1854 on
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm

A Grave Matter is defined in 1858, but Grave Sin is not defined. If you assume they are the same, then a Grave sin appears to be a violation of one of the 10 Commandments.

If they are the same as you say, then the Catholic Church is saying anyone who doesn't come to their services is committing mortal sin, which is basically saying they are not saved.

I don't believe they are making that connection or they would have just called it a mortal sin instead of a grave sin. There is no way they are that sloppy by accident. That was written differently very much on purpose.

I believe they way non-Catholics are "let off" is that, not being Catholic and knowing Catholic teachings, they are not sinning with "full knowledge and complete consent" (1859)
BlackGoldAg2011
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AG
quote:
Yep. Like the word theology. For Orthodox, true theology only comes from God, because God is transcendent and inherently unknowable except as He chooses to reveal Himself to us. Right there we have a very big difference, because a lot of the western thought is literally the other way around. Thomas Aquinas thought we could reach to God with reason in addition to sacred teaching (i.e,. revelation).
I don't see a difference here. I too believe the only things we can know about God are the things He chooses to reveal about himself to us. I also view the scriptures to be a significant way he reveals Himself to us. also, all of creation is a revealing of Himself to us.

"19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:19-20

quote:
Inerrancy of scripture, right, yes. Scripture is inspired and illumined and is an icon of God, points us to God. Church Tradition cannot conflict with Scripture, because Tradition and Scripture go hand in hand. Scripture is one part of Tradition, the crown jewel of Tradition, but the Scriptures that were preserved weren't kept in opposition to Tradition but because of the harmony between them. It does not follow.

To answer your question directly - We don't believe in Scripture. We believe in God. We aren't baptized into the Bible. Being precise, we aren't even baptized into the Church, we are baptized into Christ. We aren't saved by the Church, or the Bible - we are saved by Christ. Orthodoxy is inherently Christocentric, not dogma-centric or book-centric. If all of the bibles in the world were simulateneously burned, we would abide in our faith, because our faith isn't in a book. (And, practically speaking, the Liturgy could basically reconstruct the Scriptures - and the gaps could be filled in with the writings of the Fathers).
when you agree with inerrancy of scripture here, what do you mean? because when i say it is inerrant, i believe it is inerrant because it is the very word of God. so i find it confusing when you say you agree with inerrancy but then say you don't believe in scripture. or in otherwords, i realize you don't believe in the bible as in that is not where you place your faith, but what do you believe about the Bible.

Zobel
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AG
quote:
I don't see a difference here. I too believe the only things we can know about God are the things He chooses to reveal about himself to us. I also view the scriptures to be a significant way he reveals Himself to us. also, all of creation is a revealing of Himself to us.

"19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:19-20

Right, but we get back to energies and essences. The key part about that phrase is "What can be known". Gods essence can't be known, and theology is not about the "invisible qualities" of God. True Theology touches upon the inner life of the Trinity and comes to true mystery of the divine Life. Even this is not what St Paul is talking about - again, the meaning is different. Perhaps nuanced...but different.

quote:
when you agree with inerrancy of scripture here, what do you mean? because when i say it is inerrant, i believe it is inerrant because it is the very word of God. so i find it confusing when you say you agree with inerrancy but then say you don't believe in scripture. or in otherwords, i realize you don't believe in the bible as in that is not where you place your faith, but what do you believe about the Bible.

Well, to be precise there is no "Bible" in the Orthodox Church. There's not a place in the church liturgical practice for a single book of scripture. The parts of the bible are in various books used in the Church.

The Gospels are bound together and are on the altar in the church. The epistles are in another book called the Apostolos, and this is usually on the chanter's stand. Other portions of the OT and NT are in the manaion, triodion and pentekostarion. The law and the prophets are separate as well.

The writings of holy scripture were written by the prophets and Apostes. They were preserved and separated from heretical or false texted and their authority was maintained through the tradition of the church primarily through liturgical use (as you see above). A bible apart from tradition has no authority - authority comes from Christ. So I believe that Holy Scripture is authoritative when it is read in the correct context, with the correct interpretation, and understood through the lens of orthodoxy (that is, correct belief or worship).
UTExan
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Your information is a bit dated and vastly oversimplifies "Protestantism"
quote:
Wesley himself did have contact to the EO church through a Greek orthodox bishop by the name of Erasmus of Arcadia. Erasmus was said to have ordain several pastors for the newly formed Methodist church and possibly to have raised Wesley to the rank of Bishop.(story that can not be proved or disproved so there is no point in wasting too much time or virtual ink on it.)

So Wesleys beliefs, largely framed by the Anglican beliefs, rejected items such as papal primacy and purgatory.

I think the one interesting items that I have been discovering is a point where Wesley seemed to part ways with the Anglican beliefs and adopted a Eastern view point. The folks here will call it the Holiness movement. To me it seems to be the equivalent of the eastern Theosis. So when the Roman church was condemning the hesychastes monks on Mt Athos for heresy for their belief in Theosis. Wesley down the road a few hundred years later seemed to grab the idea and opened it up in the West. For me so far, this seems to be the item where Wesley took a eastern turn.

Sorry I can't be of more help...

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/methodism-and-eastern-orthodoxy.6803044/

Zobel
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AG
What's the point of that quote exactly? I read the forum post and I'm not sure what you're getting at.

(Side bar - the traditional Church of England was Orthodox. In many ways the invasion of 1066 was a conquering of England for Rome in a post-schism world...)
Zosima
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Sorry about the derail as well.

Missing the Sunday obligation is a mortal sin. I agree with BUAC that they are essentially the same thing. The only way it might not be a mortal sin is if they do not have full knowledge it is a sin or if they were unable because of certain circumstances.
AgLiving06
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quote:
Am I sure? No.

I don't follow the Latin Catechism, so I'm not sure I agree completley.

St Basil describes three kinds of people apart from the Church - heretics, schismatics, and parasynagogists.
(Link here and here)

Parasynagogists were priests and bishops who were deposed from their offices but refused, and continued to act as clergy apart from the Church. These can be reunited with the Church through repentence.

Schismatics were at variance with the church on some matter of church polity, but not matters of faith. These can be reunited with the Church but in some cases may need to be baptized -- if they were baptized by a schismatic priest, there may be no efficacy in their baptism.

Heretics were in disagreement on a matter of faith, who had separated themselves. Their sacraments have no legitimacy and they must be received into the Church completely.

At some point, being separated from the Chruch is really all that matters. Is there a line between utter apostasy and heresy? Yes. Is there a line between apostasy and schism? Yes. But where is judgment.

(For what it's worth, as a counter point, St John the Damascene describes Islam as a Christian heresy, so these terms are broadly used and not necessarily very precise).


Random question. It looks like you go to Greek Orthodox. Are you greek? do most people who go tend to be greek or is it more of a mixture of people?
Zobel
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AG
There's only one Orthodox Church. This Church has an administrative structure that is broken down into smaller churches. Each church is self ruled -- the proper term is autocephalous. There are around 15 autocephalous churches that make up the Orthodox Church. All this term means is that there is no administrative hierarchy over the bishop who oversees that church jurisdiction.

This is important -- there is no "rank" higher than bishop in the Orthodox Church. And really, there's no lower rank. All authority to do anything flows from the bishop. Priests can't ordain, deacons can't ordain. A priest can't found a church. A priest can only go to a church with the blessing of his bishop. No service can be served without the blessing of the bishop. So, in some way its really a one-level structure: bishop, those he appoints to the clergy, and his flock (laymen). Administratively bishops have a hierarchy, but there is no theological weight to these administrative duties. The head of an autocephalous church may be a patriarch or metropolitan, but he is "only" a bishop, same as any other.

I don't typically love the Orthodox Wiki, but I really really like their statement on bishops:


quote:
A bishop is the successor to the Apostles in the service and government of the Church. The bishop thus serves in place and as a type of Christ in the Church. No bishop in Orthodoxy is considered infallible. None has any authority over or apart from his priests, deacons, and people or the other bishops. They have the responsibility of maintaining the unity of the Church throughout the world by insuring the truth and unity of the faith and practice of their diocese. The bishop represent his particular diocese to the other churches or dioceses, and represents the Universal Church to his own particular priests, deacons, and people.

It is the belief of Orthodoxy that Christ is the only priest, pastor, and teacher of the Christian Church. He alone forgives sins and offers communion with God, his Father. Christ alone guides and rules his people. Christ remains with his Church as its living and unique head. Christ remains present and active in the Church through the Holy Spirit.

Through the sacrament of holy orders bishops give order to the Church. Bishops guarantee the continuity and unity of the Church from age to age and from place to place, that is, from the time of Christ and the apostles until the establishment of God's Kingdom in eternity. Bishops receive the gift of the Holy Spirit to manifest Christ in the Spirit to men. Bishops are neither vicars, substitutes, nor representatives of Christ. It is Christ, through his chosen ministers, who acts as teacher, good shepherd, forgiver, and healer. It is Christ remitting sins, and curing the physical, mental, and spiritual ills of mankind. This is a mystery of the Church.
I said all that to say, while there are administrative and jurisdictions within the Orthodox Church, it is still one Church.

I am not Greek, or Greek Orthodox. I am a Texan native, and I go to an Antiochian Orthodox Church. But, I would feel just as much at home theologically in a Greek or Russian or Bulgarian etc. church. My church is a blend of Americans (a majority are probably converts or second generation Orthodox who are WASP types), Lebanese, Arabic, Greek, and other first- and second-generation Orthodox. We say our services in English and use the occasional Arabic, Greek or Russian words Liturgically.

The US is a weird place for Orthodoxy because Orthodoxy came here with immigrants. The churches here were founded by immigrants and supported from the native countries remotely. Now there are more Antiochian Orthodox in the US than in Syria. There are about 250 million Orthodox in the world, and there are about 5-6 million in the US. But, the US Orthodox are split between the Orthodox Church of America (OCA - of Russian lineage), Antiochian, Greek, etc. I hope one day that the administrative and other challenges caused by the history of Orthodoxy in this country are sorted out so there's just one church here, with clean jurisdictional lines. It's a bit of a confusing mess here.

Part of the problem is that to some extent immigrants wanted their church as a sense of home, and among these communities there's a hard cultural aspect, particularly around the language. This is understandable, to me, but it contributes to the image of a closed church and makes administrative union more difficult.

Sorry that was so long-winded.
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