Matthew 24:12

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Zobel
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AG
Perhaps she knew Christ was the Sun of Righteousness. Doesn't it follow that both verses are regarding Christ? Both St Jerome and St Cyril of Alexandria think this is a prophecy of Jesus or following Christ through the apostles.

They shall lay hold of the skirt of one man who is a Jew -

Jerome: "That is, of the Lord and Saviour, of whom it is said, "A prince shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until He shall come, for whom it is laid up, and for Him shall the Gentiles wait" Genesis 49:8-10; for "there shall be a rod of Jesse, and He who shall arise to rule over the Gentiles, to Him shall the Gentiles seek" Isaiah 11:10. And when they shall lay hold of Him, they shall desire to tread in His steps, since God is with Him. Or else, whosoever shall believe out of all nations, shall lay hold of a man who is a Jew, the Apostles who are from the Jews, and shall say, Let us go with you; for we have known through the prophets and from the voice of all the Scriptures, that the Son of God, Christ, God and Lord, is with you. Where there is a most manifest prophecy, and the coming of Christ and His Apostles and the faith of all nations is preached, let us seek for nothing more."

Cyril: "Christ turning our sorrow into joy and a feast and good days and gladness, and transferring lamentation into cheerfulness, the accession to the faith and union to God by sanctification in those called to salvation shall not henceforth be individually; but the cities shall exhort each other thereto, and all nations shall come in multitudes, the later ever calling out to those before them, "I too will go." For it is written, "iron sharpeneth iron, so doth a man the countenence of another" Proverbs 27:17. For the zeal of some is ever found to call forth others to fulfill what is good. But what is the aim proposed to the cities, that is, the Gentiles? "To entreat and to seek the face of the Lord," that is, Christ, who is the exact image of God the Father, and, as is written, "the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His Person" Hebrews 1:3, of whom also the divine David saith, "Shew Thy countenance to Thy servant" Psalm 119:135.

For the Image and Countenance of God the Father hath shone upon us. Having Him propitious and kind, we lay aside the injury from sin, being justified through faith, "not by works of righteousness, which we have done, but according to His great mercy" Titus 3:5. But how they shall come, he explains. By the ten men you are to understand time perfect number of those who come. For the number ten is the symbol of perfection. But that those of the Gentiles, who cleave to the holy Apostles, took in hand to go the same way with them, being justified by the faith in Christ, he sets evidently before us. For little children, if they would follow their fathers, lay hold of the hem of their dress, and, aided by the touch and hanging from their dress, walk steadily and safely. In like way, they too who "worshiped the creature rather than the Creator" Romans 1:25, choosing as their true fathers the bringers-in of the Gospel-doctrines, and joining themselves by like-mindedness to them, follow them, being still of childlike minds, and go the same way, ever showing themselves zealous followers of their life, and by continued progress advancing "to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" Ephesians 4:13.

But why do they follow them? Being persuaded that God is with them, that is, Emmanuel, God with us. But that this calling belongs not only to those of the blood of Israel but to all nations throughout the world, he indicated by saying, that those who laid hold of that hem should be of all languages. But when were the nations called to the knowledge of the truth, and when did they desire to seek the face of the Lord and to entreat it, and to go the same way, as it were, as the holy Apostles, except when the Only-Begotten came to us, who is "the expectations of the nations" Genesis 49:10; to whom also the divine David singeth, "All the naions, whom Thou hast made, shall come and worship before Thee, O Lord?" Psalm 86:9. For the multitude of the nations also is saved through Him."

The startling condescension of this passage is, that our Lord is spoken of as "a man, a Jew." Yet of His human Nature it is not only the simple truth, but essential to the truth. Pilate said to Him in scorn, "Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered Thee unto me" John 18:35. But it was essential to the fulfillment of God's promises. The Christ was to be "the Son of David" Matthew 1:1; Matthew 22:42. "Hath not the Scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the linen of Bethlehem, where David was?" John 7:42. David, "being a prophet and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins according to the flesh, He would raise up Christ to sit on his throne Acts 2:30; "Of this man's seed hath God, according to promise, raised unto Israel a Savior, Jesus" Acts 13:23. Whence Paul begins his great doctrinal Epistle with this contrast, "the Gospel of God concerning His Son Jesus Christ, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh, and declared to be the Son of God with power" Romans 1:1-4. He was that "one Man among a thousand, whom Solomon says, I found; but a woman among all those have I not found" Ecclesiastes 7:28; the one in the whole human race. It was fulfilled in the very letter when "they brought to Him all that were diseased, and besought Him that they might only touch the hem of His garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole" Matthew 14:35-36. "The whole multitude sought to touch Him, for there went virtue out of Him and healed all" (Luke 6:19, add Luke 8:46; Mark 5:30).

Even the Jews saw the reference to the Messiah. : "All nations shall come, falling on their faces before the Messiah and the Israelites, saying, Grant, that we may be Thy servants and of Israel. For as relates to the doctrine and the knowledge of the law, the Gentiles shall be their servants, according to that, "In those days ten men etc.""

2Troll
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quote:
Since Yeshua followed Torah He would have been wearing tzitzit which are the tassels hanging from His garment.

The Greek word used is kraspedon which has as one of it meanings a tassel, tuft: the Jews had such appendages attached to their mantles to remind them of the law.

Why would the woman think she could grab the tzitzit and be cleansed? Was she just grabbing anything she could grab a hold of to be cleansed? Or was there a purpose?

A majority of the Bibles out there reference Numbers 15:38 for this passage in Matthew 9. The Septuagint (Greek translation of Tanakh) uses the same word in Numbers 15:38 as Matthew 9:20.

But why grab the tzitzit? The Hebrew word used in Numbers 15:38 is kanaph which is translated as wings, hem, border, corner of garment. The commandment is to attached tzitzit to ones kanaph or wings. This lady knew the Tanakh. Malachi 4:2 says - "But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall.

The Hebrew word for wings is kanaph the same word used in Numbers 15:38. In the wings, which attached are the tzitzit, their will be healings.


One day in the future those same tzitzit will be very important....Zechariah 8:20-23 - "Thus says the L-rd of hosts, 'It will yet be that peoples will come, even the inhabitants of many cities. The inhabitants of one will go to another, saying, "Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the L-rd, and to seek the L-rd of hosts; I will also go." So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the L-rd of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the L-rd.' 23 Thus says the L-rd of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you."'"

Guess what the word is for garment? Kanaph! Sometime in the future, ten men will grab the tzitzit and want to go with the Jew. The word for grasp is chazaq which means grab strongly....won't let go.

What is interesting is this prophecy does not state they will grab hold of a garment of a Christian or a Gentile, but a Jew who is wearing tzitzit.


are you say you do all the old testment stuff? all the old things?
agie95
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AG
Everything that can be done today without a Temple and outside the land of Israel, yes.
agie95
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AG
Sorry, not taking anything from two antisemites. It is amazing who can be called a saint despite having hatred for others. Besides it does not make sense that it could be Yeshua for He is G-d. Does it make sense to say to G-d we hear G-d is with you? Seriously. We He returns His position will be apparent to everyone.
swimmerbabe11
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What do y'all teach about communion agie?
PacifistAg
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AG

swimmerbabe11
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He's referring to Jerome and Cyril
PacifistAg
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AG
Yeah, I caught that and deleted the question afterwards. I don't know anything about Cyril and Jerome and their views towards semitic peoples, but surely he has evidence of antisemitism if he's going to level that charge.
agie95
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AG
The communion was during the seder and we celebrate Pesach every year. We explain each of the four cups and the bread. As far as a weekly, monthly, quarterly communion, we not practice.
swimmerbabe11
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In remembrance or is there added weight to it for you now because of Luke/1 Corinthians/Matthew? As in, do you believe it to now be the body and blood? Does it *do* anything?
agie95
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AG
Yes, there is added weight for the cup, but the third cup was always known as the cup of redemption or blessing.
swimmerbabe11
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Why just the cup and not the bread?
2Troll
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Everything that can be done today without a Temple and outside the land of Israel, yes.
is there no temples for you here in texas?

I thought the bible says that our bodies ARE our temple. two different things I guess.
Mrs. Lovelight
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That we should follow the teachings of Christ. Love God with all our heart, soul, and mind and love our neighbor as ourself.

If we do those all the time, the commandments are met.
So that's all I have to do?! I got this christianity thing nailed...
agie95
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AG
In my reply I said the cup and the bread, so not sure what you are asking about.
agie95
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AG
quote:
quote:
Everything that can be done today without a Temple and outside the land of Israel, yes.
is there no temples for you here in texas?

I thought the bible says that our bodies ARE our temple. two different things I guess.
The Temple has to be in Jerusalem and no where else. So even if a temple was built it would not mean anything.


Our bodies are a temple, but it is not the Temple. Yes, two different things. Many try to say believers are the third temple, but in Ezekeil 40-48 which is all about the Millennial Kingdom, this makes no sense.
swimmerbabe11
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Yes, there is added weight for the cup, but the third cup was always known as the cup of redemption or blessing.


You said there is added weight to the cup...but make no mention here of the body/bread,

Also, I note you say cup...is the cup the blood?
agie95
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AG
quote:
The communion was during the seder and we celebrate Pesach every year. We explain each of the four cups and the bread. As far as a weekly, monthly, quarterly communion, we not practice.
This is where I mention the bread.
agie95
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AG
symbolically yes.
swimmerbabe11
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And you responded that weight was added to the importance of "the cup", but didn't mention the bread.

So my question was why isn't weight added to the bread?


So the drinking of the bread-body/cup-blood at your sedar is in remembrance and symbolic only? And the only difference we would see between what you practice at Pesach and Jews would be the extra emphasis during the 3rd cup?


Also, how do you practice baptism? infant? symbolic or active?
agie95
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AG
There is added importance to both the cup and bread.

Yes, in remembrance...but it is just symbolic for you are not literally eating His body and drinking His blood.

Not the only difference. Throughout the Seder Yeshua is shown throughout. The Seder is all about Yeshua.

There definitely is no infant baptism. Baptism in a Christian viewpoint is different than the Jewish viewpoint. The mikvah (more or less a baptism) has been practiced for many, many years prior to Yeshua. Throughout the Tanakh there are verses talking about a mikvah. It is a spiritual cleansing (more or less) of the body. Absolutely, we do a mikvah. Hopefully, soon we can build our own at the synagogue. It is not symbolic in my opinion. I go through a mini mikvah every day by washing my hands when I get up.
Zobel
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AG
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

"One lord, one faith, one baptism".
agie95
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AG
and your point is?
Zobel
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AG
There's a difference between Christian baptism and washing. Or between any baptism or washing practice that was before the practice instituted by the Church.
rockisagood
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AG
agie95
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AG
quote:
There's a difference between Christian baptism and washing. Or between any baptism or washing practice that was before the practice instituted by the Church.
You are right b/c a Christian baptism means nothing. It is a one time thing and is only shown as a symbol. A mikveh is different and lasted long before baptism came into practice. When Yeshua was "baptized" I guarantee you it was not His first time to be dipped in water.
swimmerbabe11
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quote:
quote:
There's a difference between Christian baptism and washing. Or between any baptism or washing practice that was before the practice instituted by the Church.
You are right b/c a Christian baptism means nothing. It is a one time thing and is only shown as a symbol. A mikveh is different and lasted long before baptism came into practice. When Yeshua was "baptized" I guarantee you it was not His first time to be dipped in water.
I have to confess that this post raised my blood pressure a fair bit. I'm typing and editing quite a bit to try to make sure that I don't speak in anger instead of information. I deleted a lot.

The largest portion of the Christian church does not see baptism as a symbol. but a real and supernatural gift from God. I actually have a handout in my car that is several pages long in telegu and English explaining the doctrine of Baptism. Our telegu missionary/pastor (who is absolutely brilliant and lovely) wrote it because baptism is one of the first things a new Christian must do. It is incredibly important to our faith and speaking for Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Reformed, some Methodists.... it is not just a symbol. I'd be happy to upload it if you'd like to read a few pages about orthodox christian baptism.

From what I read about Mikveh and what I know about Baptism..they are about as similar as taking a shower and drowning.
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