Is it possible to believe in Evolution and in God?

17,946 Views | 258 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by John Maplethorpe
DirtDiver
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Uh, grand canyon, hello?

Sedimentary rock layers. It was all under water at one time. Was the entire canyon slowly carved out over a huge period of time or was it a canyon that formed quickly like Providence Canyon (Little Grand Canyon?)

Joseph Parrish
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AG
quote:
Uh, grand canyon, hello?

Was the entire canyon slowly carved out over a huge period of time.
Yes, it happened over time. Not in a single event.
Aggrad08
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AG

quote:
ignorant to no believe in micro evolution. Macro evolution, on the other hand, is science mixed with worldview, so God and macro evolution are not compatible.
Do a little googling and tell me what you think the difference between these two things are.
Sapper Redux
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quote:
Uh, grand canyon, hello?

Sedimentary rock layers. It was all under water at one time. Was the entire canyon slowly carved out over a huge period of time or was it a canyon that formed quickly like Providence Canyon (Little Grand Canyon?)




Providence Canyon has a much different composition than the Grand Canyon. And the layers were not under water at the same time. In fact, the composition of the layers is impossible in 6000 years.
Hickory High
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quote:

quote:
ignorant to no believe in micro evolution. Macro evolution, on the other hand, is science mixed with worldview, so God and macro evolution are not compatible.
Do a little googling and tell me what you think the difference between these two things are.

No thanks. I don't type essays on here.
titan
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S
Have little trouble believing in both, with some caveats about how the argument is framed.

First there is no conflict, because:
My belief in God doesn't come from inherent trust or distrust about the origins of the Earth either way. It is what is visible in the experiential historical realm, including self and others now, as well as back in times as far as King David, the whole range. In grandiose terms, my belief doesn't rest on the infinitely un-witnessed and un-testified by human eyes distant past, but on things known and that continue to the present. The OP' statement about hardline stances comes within the ballpark of my outlook also.

Put another way, if your belief OR disbelief is having to center on the Earth being 4 billion years old, or not being that old, I have to wonder why either position is held so strongly? Put even stronger, they could confirm the age of the Earth tomorrow as either just over 10,000 years (Atlantis sinking date per legend), or 6,000 or 6 billion, and it would not affect my faith. It is almost in the same category of proving or disproving the Egyptians built the pyramids--- because the reasons are not centered on how convincing the origin story is. (Interestingly enough though, this starting point emphasis was a feature of pagan inquiry in the 1st C---- so some things come around full circle, it seems.)

These days there seems to be a clash between accepted earth and biological sciences, and what is apparently termed YEC (6,000 year Earth) on the board. Yet archeological excavations move dangerously closer back in time to that very mark each day, never mind the 4 billion or so, or even the dinosaur age disputed part. Particularly in Egypt, the earliest traces already show a rather developed character, which of course requires a starting point a bit further back. So each find a ruin that is older still, has bearing here. What are saying is 6,000 years seems a very unsafe mark even in historical terms.

That above said, there are problems as stated at top with how argument is framed.

There has been much said about `assumptions' -- but one of those assumptions is that what was conveyed in Genesis had to mean a certain way, or even was spoken with the same tenor each time. Adults tell kids all kinds of things. The rest falls under grandiose curiosity that can be indulged, but should not govern your life. Where the one G-d, the Great UnManifest, is concerned, there is far too little space left these days for the wider concept of MYSTERY, Mysterion, humility, as it was understood when talking about the Logos.

Today, on the other side there is an almost militant atheist tone, that presents evolution in terms more like affirming abiogenesis. It is how they frame evolution, as compared to how it was done in class when growing up (parents recall the same) where you learned evolution and the dinosaurs, and it was just fine, no implied or pushed contradiction. [It bears noticing that the same school of thought that pushes evolution with this "tone" is the same one that is going around pushing what amounts to a form of religious secular-liberalism, completely with unproven assumptions and even often denials of science where it conflicts with social engineering agendas not unlike what they accuse YECs of.]

If you think of some of the stupid counter-to-sense things being pushed about man and woman and ignoring gender difference realities today - evolutionary traits by the way - you see where some of the friction comes from. What the `anti-evolution' side has to remember is that a great deal of the biologists, geologists, and astronomers that came up with the theories of the age of the Eart were NOT doing it as part of the current PC-liberal religion, and in fact routinely were both believers and scientists. That is, they were not forging results or creating deceptions as a rule. Thankfully the more important foundational sciences pre-dates today's highly polarized age.

I suspect that anti-evolutionists see evolution as something like the extremely dubious and hyped up climate change argument, where routinely colluded emails or massaged findings and models turn up, and where it is all so clearly political redistribution driven.

But geologic and Earth science is not like that -- it pre-dates that period, was the product of a far more sober and well argued out over time process. Once you realize the geological evidence, there is no reason to focus on the dinosaurs existing or not as a basis for accepting the very old Earth. It is also significant that expeditions off-world to the Moon and Mars tend to confirm that planets are very old in relation to our historical perspective.

Evolution in certain basic outlines makes sense, but it is often framed today in a tone that is abiogenesis in disguise. There are some problems have with evolution, but they are more of an intuition kind. In any case, I don't see any reason to put them in such opposition.

It is those who put them in opposition, especially government, activist, and educational curriculum and agendas, I find far, far more suspect than trying to reconcile the evidence of science and imprinted truth of the divine.



PA24
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AG
Titan,

lot of dibble just to say the other side is right just needs to deliver their message nicer.

I don't believe in evolutionist numbers per the age of the earth. I believe the Bible is the word of God, that you cant pick and chose what to call real and what to call fairy tale.

Doesn't mater how they delivery the lie, we definitely are in the age of the great falling away.

Finally, I think this guy debunks the billion yr. old theory, the earth is the age the Bible states,6000yrs.

Global warming is a lie, the great flood will not happen again
titan
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S

quote:
Titan,

lot of dibble just to say the other side is right just needs to deliver their message nicer.

You didn't read it very carefully if that is what you thought it said. It was trying to say that arguments about the age of the Earth either way are not a good reason to believe. If that has been the only experience of the power of God you have seen in either your life or credible past history with others---- than that is pretty thin.

Let me put in Homer Simpson terms about the complex arguments on both sides on this:
"Just because I do not care does not mean I do not understand."

titan
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S
I just realized what you are fastening on. Yes, on the age of the Earth, lean in favor of very old, but do to geology, not evolutionary theory's testimony.

Point blank question: Are you doubting the authenticity of the older and far more staid science of geology, rather than all the evolutionary biology theory stuff?
PA24
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AG
I have never watched Homer Simpson, one of my greatest accomplishments if I make it to the end without watching that. I don't own a TV.

You do question the YEC age of the earth, lean toward the non believers silly math I think.

Be weary Titan, God has given you much knowledge, don't stray.




schmendeler
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Believing in a young earth would be ignoring that wisdom.
Poke_the_Bear
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quote:


Finally, I think ...



No you do not.
Aggrad08
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Your statement that geology is sound it's quite right. Same with cosmology which comes to an identical conclusion. However, the assertion that biology and is inferior in rigour and substantiation based on hard evidence is flat wrong. There it's no credible bases for this claim. Any appeal to pc liberalism our abiogenesis has nothing to do with the actual science, which is solid. If you follow the evidence, you can only end up realizing both are true.
titan
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S

quote:
However, the assertion that biology and is inferior in rigour and substantiation based on hard evidence is flat wrong. There it's no credible bases for this claim. Any appeal to pc liberalism our abiogenesis has nothing to do with the actual science, which is solid.
You are correct to argue it is not inferior. I wasn't saying that. I was just saying know what have from the other pre-dates the pc-liberalism context or even the start of the strong skeptic stuff. And that alone provides enough reason to come down in favor of old Earth for its ways of arriving at it are far more staid. (For some time even thought of being a geologist). For the same reason wouldn't trust sweeping statements about climate now compared to the more detached times earlier. In a completely unrelated field I had a book published before photocopy machines existed, let alone convincing ways to fake, that had a photo---there was a debate claiming this was a fake recently for some absurd reason because it was recalled differently. But since had the photo before the time of distortions, it wasn't even necessary to entertain the claim. Especially when in this case knew how the mistake had happened. Generally geology and cosmology is sort of the same way.

As for abiogenesis---that referred to how tends to be framed at the school or poster discussion level; not claiming that evolution ties to it--which would be a canard. You just hear too many anecdotes that link the two in careless teachings or interviews.


Aggrad08
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I'm not sure what your bases is for arguing that geology or cosmology are more staid? I don't see any immediate reason to think this is true.
Joseph Parrish
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WinAg. He debunks nothing. He ignores facts and puts a lot of spin on things to tell things the way he wants to. There is a problem in science when those studying it have a predetermined outcome.

His speed of light argument is ridiculous.
Joseph Parrish
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AG
Just because someone speaks with confidence and authority does not make them correct.
AgEng08
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come for the debate... stay for the transition music
PA24
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AG
Two highly educated men who happen to be Christians and BOTH believe mankind is thousands of yrs. old not millions.

Sorry, mixed your screen name with aggrad08.
Sapper Redux
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The debate is about the age of the universe. As to evolution, they're equally stupid.
AgEng08
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Wow dude. You don't even know me. I'm a Christian, have argued for God on this forum, I know I'm saved, and you come at me with that?! I just don't agree with you on the young earth stuff and your approach to apologetics. Just awful.
titan
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S
WinaGs,


quote:
Doesn't mater how they delivery the lie, we definitely are in the age of the great falling away.
Actually agree with you there, as don't find that hard to believe, wouldn't argue against it these days.

But see AgEng08's post. Perhaps you should modify your witness, to not so arbitrarily divide just on basis of this age of Earth debate.
Hickory High
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quote:
Wow dude. You don't even know me. I'm a Christian, have argued for God on this forum, I know I'm saved, and you come at me with that?! I just don't agree with you on the young earth stuff and your approach to apologetics. Just awful.

Don't even give him the courtesy of referring to what he does as apologetics. As an aspiring apologist, I know it isn't. Apologetics require grace in the apologist's response.
PA24
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Screen name mixup, I thought you were someone else that literally has a mission to destroy Christianity. Spends countless hrs posting dribble and countering the Offerings of the Bible.

You are exactly right, I don't know you and accept my apology as a mistake in identies.

PA24
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Thank God I am not a police officer with a gun
mark.mathews
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mark.mathews
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mark.mathews
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"One of the most shattering pieces of evidence comes from the Paluxy River basin in central Texas, near the town of Glen Rose, where fossilized tracks of man and dinosaur appear together."

http://www.icr.org/article/paluxy-river-tracks/

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ETFan
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quote:
"One of the most shattering pieces of evidence comes from the Paluxy River basin in central Texas, near the town of Glen Rose, where fossilized tracks of man and dinosaur appear together."

http://www.icr.org/article/paluxy-river-tracks/


Is this real life??

It's hilarious that the ICR article uses pictures taken with literally a potato when there have been more recent (read, real, scientific) studies and pictures done to analyze these fossilized prints.

You can look at them here: http://www.paleo.cc/paluxy/tsite.htm

I'll sum it up though: They're all dinosaur prints.
Woody2006
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AG
quote:
"One of the most shattering pieces of evidence comes from the Paluxy River basin in central Texas, near the town of Glen Rose, where fossilized tracks of man and dinosaur appear together."

http://www.icr.org/article/paluxy-river-tracks/


Tough to take the Institute for Creation "Research" seriously when it's a crappy building near a bunch of auto body shops. I'm sure top-quality research is accomplished there.
kurt vonnegut
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mmmmm Tacolicious Taqueria. . . now I'm hungry.
PA24
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Woody


A man that believes in style over substance
PA24
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Those tracks will be debated yrs after we are all dead, some of us will be living in peace and harmony, with complete understanding. I am in this group.

Others will be in agony....like Woody. God takes special interest in people who try to turn his people away from him like Woody continues to do. A jealous God we have and your life will never be blessed mocking his word.

I will say a prayer for you but not sure if it would be safe, God really hates the haters.

It might be too late for you Woody....really sad indeed for you.
Woody2006
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quote:
Woody


A man that believes in style over substance

I believe there is zero substance emanating from that "institution". Only lies and conspiracy theories.
 
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