quote:

---

So are you saying Jesus is a fictional
character like Thor?

There is a lot of historical evidence for Jesus, Thor not so much.

---

I'm saying there is a lot of supernatural stuff in the Bible. Some of it was Jesus doing supernatural things, some of it wasn't. It just strikes me as odd to criticize one sect's belief in additional supernatural stuff when your religion also has a lot of that same stuff in it. If you want to find something to critique in Mormonism there is certainly plenty of there to go after without attacking an aspect that generally speaking your own faith shares with theirs.

Okay I get it.

quote:

---

There is a lot of historical evidence for Jesus, Thor not so much.

---

what are you talking about? every time there is a lightning strike, it's proof that thor exists and is watching us. don't tell me you're one of those people that believes in the "theory" of "electro-static discharge"?

quote:

---

When you say long term, do you mean to say a length of time exceeding my life span? I do not have God in my life, but I feel very happy and fortunate with my life and my family.

---

Kurt,

1) Glad you picked up on that I specifically said Long Term for the following reasons. We are all on different spiritual timelines. Sometimes it takes time (months, years, decades) for us to finally get it (what God calls us to do) and even then some of us never do get it. Example- when an alcoholic starts drinking- it is great in the beginning (he thinks there is no problems), it is only when he hits rock bottom that he realizes his error (we have to see the Long Term results). Another Example- just look at recent Bill Cosby scandal or the Catholic Church Sex abuse scandals- these things took decades to come light.

2) A Well know bible verse is to build your house on rock, for when the storm comes your house will not be washed away. IF you have weak foundation (built on sand) it washes away. All of us will be tested in our life with storms (challenges). When you go it alone- with out God, it is not going to be pretty. See Well known Footprints Prayer/Poem- https://www.google.com/search?q=footprints&espv=2&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=j2tzVP2pIMqogwTK_oLQDA&ved=0CDIQsAQ&biw=1600&bih=775#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=9uhtxmt3dFeFDM%253A%3BqEVdoS9WY0C48M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.caradocmission.org%252Fuploads%252Fimage%252Fpics%252520for%252520website%252FFOOTPRINTS%252520WEBPAGE.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.caradocmission.org%252Fministry%252Ffootprints%3B1393%3B1004

3) Another Truth- Is we live in a world that was created by God, you have a soul, God is constantly reaching out to you directly (conscience, dreams), through family and friends. So the fact you have turned away from God, does not mean he is not in your life. God is still lurking nearby. Heck- even I pray for you and many of the other nonbelievers.

Kurt, I sincerely hope it works out for you, especially when the storm hits your life, as it hits all of us.

Regarding storms- 8th grade boy passed away in our hood and another young man-17 year old- friend of my cousin committed suicide. I can't imagine the pain both of these families are going through. Prayers up to both of them

quote:

---

Read this today- it is so true. Knowing God without knowing our own wretchedness makes for pride. Knowing our own wretchedness without knowing God make for despair. Knowing Jesus Christ strikes the balance because he shows us both God and our own wretchedness.

I was the first one listed above- pride. I used to think to myself. I am a great guy, I am such a good person- I don't muder, steal millions of dollars like those folks on TV. Then one day I truly looked at myself and found I myself was a liar, thief and a murder of other people character (all the little things that I used to given myself a pass on). The reason I was blind is I was comparing myself to others in the world. I used to think- yes I stole but it was just a little, yes I lied but it is no big deal, everybody does it.

One of my happiest days was to finally get it and understand, that I do need saving, that I am a sinful man. My favorite bible verse: Luke 18: 13 O God be Merciful to Me a sinner

---

I think people make this harder than it has to be. We should be humble, but not pitiful. Encouragement (when we are down), and discipline (when we are up)

Booboo,
You're flat out wrong. There are many non-religious people and religious people who worship the wrong God who are happy, healthy and live meaningful lives.

quote:

---

You're flat out wrong. There are many non-religious people and religious people who worship the wrong God who are happy, healthy and live meaningful lives.

---

John, Please elaborate what you mean by the wrong God? Do you mean they worship- power, money, fame?

quote:

---

quote:

---

Original Sin is added. It's not a part of our nature.

---

It's apparent who DOES and who DOES NOT have children.

---

What do you mean by this response? Is it a joke or something else?

quote:

---

quote:

---

You're flat out wrong. There are many non-religious people and religious people who worship the wrong God who are happy, healthy and live meaningful lives.

---

John, Please elaborate what you mean by the wrong God? Do you mean they worship- power, money, fame?

---

No. He means literal other gods.

The R&P forum is a free for all. I suggest city data. It has the formats that would suit your opinions.

quote:

---

My apologies then. I believed someone of your intellect would find a thread about why we need God and Jesus in our lives about as relevant as why we might need any other supernatural beings.

---

Nice fake apology. To answer your questions anyway, in addition to what 7thGen said (which pretty much nailed it), once again: in the grand scheme of things I find your god to be just as relevant as any other. HOWEVER, as an American living in the United States in the year 2014, your god carries a particular relevance to the world in which I live. As I've stated dozens of times, if we were posting on an India A&M board I'd be saying the same thing about Hindu gods. If we were posting on a Peru A&M board 600 years ago I'd be talking about Inca ones.

I really don't see why you don't understand why someone would want to offer a counter to the OP's initial premise - that some people find humans neither inherently wretched nor in need of any particular god, including yours, to fix that alleged wretchedness. God forbid (pun intended) that an atheist open the door on this little echo chamber.

Jesus is Lord! Great posts booboo

quote:

---

I for one am glad I no longer have to try to compare myself to a standard established by a god that feels no need to follow his own rules.

---

Schmendeler

It seems like there's an implication that this is not good or unjust (making rules and not following them). Did you have rules for your two children that you don't follow? Did don't touch the stove apply to them when they are young but you could touch the stove without being evil right? I think this is a micro-example of the rules of God. Also which rules did Jesus break?

quote:

---

I don't think children are wicked in any sense. They just have to learn that doing whatever they want whenever they want isn't going to work in society.

---

First of all, thank you for training your children not to do whatever they want so they will be functional in society! Kudos. Most of us wouldn't call them wicked at all. However Gods standard from our perspective is outrageously different and the fact that you do have to train them not to do what they is what I believe is evidence of a sin nature. Disobedience, selfishness, and sin has been the only thing we have ever experience from birth to the point in which we call it nature as we have never known anything different.

quote:

---

Disobedience, selfishness, and sin has been the only thing we have ever experience from birth to the point in which we call it nature as we have never known anything different.

---

What a Debbie Downer outlook on humanity. People on both an individual and collective level have a whole spectrum of natural impulses that are both positive and negative toward others.

quote:

---

Kurt,

1) Glad you picked up on that I specifically said Long Term for the following reasons. We are all on different spiritual timelines. Sometimes it takes time (months, years, decades) for us to finally get it (what God calls us to do) and even then some of us never do get it. Example- when an alcoholic starts drinking- it is great in the beginning (he thinks there is no problems), it is only when he hits rock bottom that he realizes his error (we have to see the Long Term results). Another Example- just look at recent Bill Cosby scandal or the Catholic Church Sex abuse scandals- these things took decades to come light.

---

Booboo,
You described a plant without sunlight as being in a wretched state just as a human would be (on a long term timescale) wretched without God. You would not describe a healthy growing plant as being wretched if it had sunlight, water, nutrients, etc. It seems, by this analogy, that a person who knew God would not be in a wretched state, yet this is exactly what the original quote asks us to do. You contend that we must acknowledge our own wretchedness . . . . an inherent and inescapable wretchedness we are born with and that not even knowing God can cure.

It seems 'at odds' to me to believe oneself to be born wretched and sinful and yet deserving or entitled to ask for forgiveness and love / enter the kingdom of Heaven.

quote:

---

2) A Well know bible verse is to build your house on rock, for when the storm comes your house will not be washed away. IF you have weak foundation (built on sand) it washes away. All of us will be tested in our life with storms (challenges). When you go it alone- with out God, it is not going to be pretty. See Well known Footprints Prayer/Poem- https://www.google.com/search?q=footprints&espv=2&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=j2tzVP2pIMqogwTK_oLQDA&ved=0CDIQsAQ&biw=1600&bih=775#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=9uhtxmt3dFeFDM%253A%3BqEVdoS9WY0C48M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.caradocmission.org%252Fuploads%252Fimage%252Fpics%252520for%252520website%252FFOOTPRINTS%252520WEBPAGE.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.caradocmission.org%252Fministry%252Ffootprints%3B1393%3B1004

. . . .

Kurt, I sincerely hope it works out for you, especially when the storm hits your life, as it hits all of us.

---

I do actually really like that poem. Though, to be honest, I like to imagine it as a conversation between a father and a son (biological sense). My rock is not God, it is my family and friends. I do not feel alone.

quote:

---

However Gods standard from our perspective is outrageously different and the fact that you do have to train them not to do what they is what I believe is evidence of a sin nature. Disobedience, selfishness, and sin has been the only thing we have ever experience from birth to the point in which we call it nature as we have never known anything different.

---

Well science says its just a nature. Since there is plenty of evidence to suggest this vs. no evidence to suggest original sin.. I'll have to go with that.

quote:

---

What a Debbie Downer outlook on humanity. People on both an individual and collective level have a whole spectrum of natural impulses that are both positive and negative toward others.

---

A Debbie Downer outlook would see the sin resulting from a sinful nature and not do anything to correct it or feel defeated and without hope. Bad behaviors resulting from a sinful nature can be corrected. Most parents establish rules, a moral code, or law for their children to identify good and bad behavior. Then consequences and discipline for not adhering to it their rules follow. This helps a society tremendously especially if the moral code is in line with many of the basics of scripture. (Do not steal, lie, covet, do unto others, love your neighbor as yourself), etc.

Hope
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

I disagree that a child acting in base level self-interest (selfishness, lying, or disobeying) is an example of a "sin" nature. a child who does these things is acting out of drives tied to survival and advancement. taken at face value, that is exactly how you'd expect an entity to act not yet taught or convinced that acting otherwise is actually in their best interest. it's not a matter of being wicked, they just don't yet see the value in acting in ways that are NOT completely self-interested.

quote:

---

I disagree that a child acting in base level self-interest (selfishness, lying, or disobeying) is an example of a "sin" nature. a child who does these things is acting out of drives tied to survival and advancement. taken at face value, that is exactly how you'd expect an entity to act not yet taught or convinced that acting otherwise is actually in their best interest. it's not a matter of being wicked, they just don't yet see the value in acting in ways that are NOT completely self-interested.

---

Agreed. I just disagree with Dirt Diver's premise altogether. Even if you create some system to "save" people from being "inherently wretched," you're still being a Debbie Downer for looking at a little kid and finding them inherently wretched and sinful in the first place. Even very young children have capacity for good qualities like love and empathy. Plus, all the things DD listed that make society a better place for everyone can be taught without the religious reasoning for it.

quote:

---

It seems, by this analogy, that a person who knew God would not be in a wretched state, yet this is exactly what the original quote asks us to do. You contend that we must acknowledge our own wretchedness . . . . an inherent and inescapable wretchedness we are born with and that not even knowing God can cure. It seems 'at odds' to me to believe oneself to be born wretched and sinful and yet deserving or entitled to ask for forgiveness and love / enter the kingdom of Heaven.

---

Kurt,
Since you have picked up on the loving Father concept. Think of the orignial quote this way. Think of the perfect Role model who for us is (God- Jesus) now try to be like them. As you admire your great role model, as you strive to be like them, you realize how much you need to change, how much you need to improve, so you can be like them. Strive to give yourself away completely, strive for selfless love (humility).

One of my (4) saints is St. Francis of Assisi - see how he completely changed from nice rich guy who liked to party with his friends, to completely giving himself away, trying to be like Jesus (his role model). http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=50

quote:

---

My rock is not God, it is my family and friends. I do not feel alone.

---

Kurt,

Yes because you are experiencing Love. God=Love . What is interesting is when your kids move on ( they grow up and leave the house resulting in an empty house) and friends move or die off. At some point you will come to realize it is really just you and God.

quote:

---

Kurt,
Since you have picked up on the loving Father concept. Think of the orignial quote this way. Think of the perfect Role model who for us is (God- Jesus) now try to be like them. As you admire your great role model, as you strive to be like them, you realize how much you need to change, how much you need to improve, so you can be like them. Strive to give yourself away completely, strive for selfless love (humility).

---

This spin on the original quote is far less abrasive. However, the above interpretation and how I think most Christians view their own supposed inherent sinfulness (wretchedness) is not lost on me. Yes, we should strive to be 'better' - more Christ like as Christians would say.

There is a difference between humility and self deprecation. For someone to say they are born wretched, or to say they are unworthy, or to say they are born sick from original sin, does not feel like humility to me.

quote:

---

quote:

---

Even very young children have capacity for good qualities like love and empathy. Plus, all the things DD listed that make society a better place for everyone can be taught without the religious reasoning for it.

---

---

Jesus doesn't deny this. He even uses this example as showing how much greater God is.

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Jesus said repent and sin no more. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

quote:

---

I disagree that a child acting in base level self-interest (selfishness, lying, or disobeying) is an example of a "sin" nature. a child who does these things is acting out of drives tied to survival and advancement. taken at face value, that is exactly how you'd expect an entity to act not yet taught or convinced that acting otherwise is actually in their best interest. it's not a matter of being wicked, they just don't yet see the value in acting in ways that are NOT completely self-interested.

---

You are right in that we expect children to act that way as that's all we alive today have ever seen or experienced. It's natural to us. That expectation that you see has a name in my view and that is sin nature. The name is not really important, its the fact that you see it. If I understand your view properly what i call a sin nature is caused by a drives for survival instinct/advancement and can be corrected via education.

There are a couple of lists in the Bible the describe the "deeds of the flesh" or sinful, natural nature of mankind. I have bolded the ones that mostly refer to children. Now, we don't see all of the deeds listed below in children at all times everyday. And we do see children at times exhibit what the Bible calls fruit of the spirit at times. Now I could see how selfishness could be a survival instinct for a starving kid, "I'm going to take your food" however why do they act that way with toys that have nothing to do with survival? When does an outburst of anger help them advance? Would the list below that display the fruits of the Spirit help them advance more in society?

Sin Nature:
the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing

being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;

Contrast: Fruit of the Spirit
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control;

quote:

---

quote:

---

My rock is not God, it is my family and friends. I do not feel alone.

---

Kurt,

Yes because you are experiencing Love. God=Love . What is interesting is when your kids move on ( they grow up and leave the house resulting in an empty house) and friends move or die off. At some point you will come to realize it is really just you and God.

---

Great. . . . now I feel alone.

The world around us is abundant proof man is fallen and in desperate need of a savior. Thankfully Jesus paid the ultimate price to be that savior.

quote:

---

Plus, all the things DD listed that make society a better place for everyone can be taught without the religious reasoning for it.

---

or better taught without it. That way there is nothing in the way of advancement.

"You are right in that we expect children to act that way as that's all we alive today have ever seen or experienced. It's natural to us. That expectation that you see has a name in my view and that is sin nature. The name is not really important, its the fact that you see it."

It's not just natural to us, it's natural to the entire animal kingdom. And as there is no evidence for any other state of existence there's no reason to think that this state has any inherent good or bad nature to it, especially in comparison to a mythical Eden state of existence where carnivores ate fruits and vegetables instead of other animals. It just is. Life on earth has always been a battle for survival. That's not a sin nature, it's life.

quote:

---

The world around us is abundant proof man is fallen and in desperate need of a savior. Thankfully Jesus paid the ultimate price to be that savior.

---

Too bad he couldn't get the job done.