It is, but it's what happens when you decide to follow the World and not the Word.dermdoc said:
This is so sad.
The (New) Global Methodist Church
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Last: 9 hrs ago by TheRatt87
All I know is since our church left the UMC two years ago we started growing in members and in energy & joy!
Windy City Ag said:Quote:
Unfortunately UMC is taking a lot of assets with them.
At least in Dallas, many of the wealthiest and most financially sustainable Methodist churches are sticking with the UMC.
Highland Park United Methodist is probably the most prosperous, followed by Lovers Lane. They have been pushed by the UMC North Texas conference over the years to absorb or prop up smaller failing churches. St.Andrews in Plano did bolt.
White's Chapel out in Southlake has already bolted but for whatever reason avoid the GMC as well, trying its own separate approach. It is a mega-church so they can definitely get away with it. They style themselves as centrist.
I am not sure how Houston went. Maybe different there. I knew the Woodlands UMC was also pretty much a mega-church and disaffilaited.
I know Kingwood UMC went GMC.
That's interesting because Highland Park Presbyterian was an early mover to the ECO. They are probably the wealthiest Presbyterian Church in Texas.
Kingwood is also home to a very good and stable ECO Presbyterian Church.
Kingwood is also home to a very good and stable ECO Presbyterian Church.
And before that, PCPC broke off from HPPC because PCUSA wasn't conservative enough and HPPC didn't want to split at the time..The Chicken Ranch said:
That's interesting because Highland Park Presbyterian was an early mover to the ECO. They are probably the wealthiest Presbyterian Church in Texas.
I'm not familiar with PCPC. I'm not from North Texas, so you'll have to spell it out.
Are they EPC or PCA? At some point the ECO and EPC will likely merge. We are already in covenant with each other.
The PCUSA was never conservative, but it had conservative churches. They became openly hostile to conservative churches, just like the UMC did. Hence the split. The UMC-GMC split is just 15 years behind the Presbyterians.
Are they EPC or PCA? At some point the ECO and EPC will likely merge. We are already in covenant with each other.
The PCUSA was never conservative, but it had conservative churches. They became openly hostile to conservative churches, just like the UMC did. Hence the split. The UMC-GMC split is just 15 years behind the Presbyterians.
Park Cities Presbyterian (PCPC) split from HPPC and went to PCA in the early-90s. While HPPC was one of the biggest conservative churches within PCUSA, many saw the writing on the wall.The Chicken Ranch said:
I'm not familiar with PCPC. I'm not from North Texas, so you'll have to spell it out.
Are they EPC or PCA? At some point the ECO and EPC will likely merge. We are already in covenant with each other.
The PCUSA was never conservative, but it had conservative churches. They became openly hostile to conservative churches, just like the UMC did. Hence the split. The UMC-GMC split is just 15 years behind the Presbyterians.
as did First Presbyterian Houston. Had to sue PCUSA in court to take all the property.The Chicken Ranch said:
That's interesting because Highland Park Presbyterian was an early mover to the ECO. They are probably the wealthiest Presbyterian Church in Texas.
Kingwood is also home to a very good and stable ECO Presbyterian Church.
St Luke's Houston stayed - it's now a liberal mess of a church. Sad because not 20 years ago it was a mainline tall steeple conservative congregation.Windy City Ag said:Quote:
Unfortunately UMC is taking a lot of assets with them.
At least in Dallas, many of the wealthiest and most financially sustainable Methodist churches are sticking with the UMC.
Highland Park United Methodist is probably the most prosperous, followed by Lovers Lane. They have been pushed by the UMC North Texas conference over the years to absorb or prop up smaller failing churches. St.Andrews in Plano did bolt.
White's Chapel out in Southlake has already bolted but for whatever reason avoid the GMC as well, trying its own separate approach. It is a mega-church so they can definitely get away with it. They style themselves as centrist.
I am not sure how Houston went. Maybe different there. I knew the Woodlands UMC was also pretty much a mega-church and disaffilaited.
The Chicken Ranch said:
That's interesting because Highland Park Presbyterian was an early mover to the ECO. They are probably the wealthiest Presbyterian Church in Texas.
Kingwood is also home to a very good and stable ECO Presbyterian Church.
I'm somewhat surprised they didn't go independent. They are or were pretty big in size back in the day when I went.
But maybe they went GMC just to keep more unity with others.
AgLiving06 said:The Chicken Ranch said:
That's interesting because Highland Park Presbyterian was an early mover to the ECO. They are probably the wealthiest Presbyterian Church in Texas.
Kingwood is also home to a very good and stable ECO Presbyterian Church.
I'm somewhat surprised they didn't go independent. They are or were pretty big in size back in the day when I went.
But maybe they went GMC just to keep more unity with others.
Why would a Presbyterian Church go Indy when the ECO is perfectly fine?
MAROON said:as did First Presbyterian Houston. Had to sue PCUSA in court to take all the property.The Chicken Ranch said:
That's interesting because Highland Park Presbyterian was an early mover to the ECO. They are probably the wealthiest Presbyterian Church in Texas.
Kingwood is also home to a very good and stable ECO Presbyterian Church.
Actually, FPC Houston sued to get the state to rule on the trust clause and clarify the property ownership. Once the court ruled in their favor, they left.
It is known as the nuclear option. The courts have ruled that the local congregations really own their property in Texas, not the parent denomination. So a church (UMC/PCUSA/ELCA) can legally leave their denomination and take their property without paying a dime, if they so choose. It's really just that simple. Change your affiliation in your by-laws and send them a "Dear John…"
A lot of the actual believers at St. Luke's are at The Story. Their pastor Eric Huffman is awesome. And that church is thriving. We are thinking about joining. Our current church lost its youth pastor and that's a must for us.MAROON said:St Luke's Houston stayed - it's now a liberal mess of a church. Sad because not 20 years ago it was a mainline tall steeple conservative congregation.Windy City Ag said:Quote:
Unfortunately UMC is taking a lot of assets with them.
At least in Dallas, many of the wealthiest and most financially sustainable Methodist churches are sticking with the UMC.
Highland Park United Methodist is probably the most prosperous, followed by Lovers Lane. They have been pushed by the UMC North Texas conference over the years to absorb or prop up smaller failing churches. St.Andrews in Plano did bolt.
White's Chapel out in Southlake has already bolted but for whatever reason avoid the GMC as well, trying its own separate approach. It is a mega-church so they can definitely get away with it. They style themselves as centrist.
I am not sure how Houston went. Maybe different there. I knew the Woodlands UMC was also pretty much a mega-church and disaffilaited.
Here is Huffman's story, and it is powerful. He is the son of a Methodist minister who basically became an atheist secularized radical progressive. Then had a major change of heart when he went to the Holy Lands 10+ years ago. I have visited his church and his theology is very bible based.
the-reconversion-of-a-secularized-radical
yes - they're no longer at St Luke's which basically evicted The Story from their property. The Story was essentially St Luke's contemporary service at one-time.
Yep. They are thriving. They bought Bethany Church next to Lamar High School. They will outgrow St Luke's in no time.MAROON said:
yes - they're no longer at St Luke's which basically evicted The Story from their property. The Story was essentially St Luke's contemporary service at one-time.
A lot of heavy, heavy hitters (financially) -- old school multi-generation River Oaks families -- have moved from St. John's and St. Luke's to The Story.
yes - I have two friends deeply involved there. St John's is another one that has gone by the wayside. Some great folks there, but it's becoming more and more liberal.
I'd say peak idiocy, but I don't think we're there quite yet
They fall all over themselves and still can't get it right.TresPuertas said:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6gewzAtqAw/?igsh=cTNhY2NkcnVydXQ4
That scripture to the right of the clip is spot on for what has happened to the UMC.
UPDATE on Rio Texas Conference:
I have posted multiple times about our church plus about 35 more that have retained a law firm in Austin to negotiate leaving without paying an exit fee. Rio has firmly refused to discuss anything. Instead, the Rio Texas Conference has brought suit against all of the churches involved. Then they started a very long drawn out delay tactic. Rio was suing each individual church for more money above and beyond the exit fee.
Yesterday, a San Antonio judge heard arguements for the case. The judge dismissed the court case ruling that Rio Texas Conference does not have a case. Rio does have the option in 30 days to appeal or re-file. It is still to early to claim victory; however, the churches involved are a step closer to being released.
There is also a separate group of churches being represented by the same law firm in another suit. If our case is found in our favor, it increases the chances of the next group of churches being released as well. Please remember, THE GROUP OF CHURCHES BEING REPRESENTED DID NOT SUE THE CONFERENCE. RIO TEXAS FILED THE SUIT AGAINST US.
If your church is considering leaving the Rio Texas Conference. Contact attorney Curtis Kurhajec. He is adding churches to his client list. He welcomes any questions y'all might have. He works with Naman, Howell, Smith & Lee Law Firm in Austin, Texas. Phone number is (512) 479-0300 [url=https://www.namanhowell.com/professionals/Curtis-J-Kurhajec#Experience][/url]https://www.namanhowell.com/professionals/Curtis-J-Kurhajec#Experience
I have posted multiple times about our church plus about 35 more that have retained a law firm in Austin to negotiate leaving without paying an exit fee. Rio has firmly refused to discuss anything. Instead, the Rio Texas Conference has brought suit against all of the churches involved. Then they started a very long drawn out delay tactic. Rio was suing each individual church for more money above and beyond the exit fee.
Yesterday, a San Antonio judge heard arguements for the case. The judge dismissed the court case ruling that Rio Texas Conference does not have a case. Rio does have the option in 30 days to appeal or re-file. It is still to early to claim victory; however, the churches involved are a step closer to being released.
There is also a separate group of churches being represented by the same law firm in another suit. If our case is found in our favor, it increases the chances of the next group of churches being released as well. Please remember, THE GROUP OF CHURCHES BEING REPRESENTED DID NOT SUE THE CONFERENCE. RIO TEXAS FILED THE SUIT AGAINST US.
If your church is considering leaving the Rio Texas Conference. Contact attorney Curtis Kurhajec. He is adding churches to his client list. He welcomes any questions y'all might have. He works with Naman, Howell, Smith & Lee Law Firm in Austin, Texas. Phone number is (512) 479-0300 [url=https://www.namanhowell.com/professionals/Curtis-J-Kurhajec#Experience][/url]https://www.namanhowell.com/professionals/Curtis-J-Kurhajec#Experience
Congrats to y'all 83! That is a big deal. Combined with the outcome of GC a month ago, seems likely that more remaining Texas UMC churches may break away over the next few years.
Do you know of any links (yet) that contain or explain the Dismissal ruling?
Do you know of any links (yet) that contain or explain the Dismissal ruling?
Another reminder that underneath the spiritual core of religion is a bunch of real-world financial realities.
I do know that most churches for decades have received a big helping hand from the larger UMC with loans for maintenance of physical plant. I also know that the unfunded clergy pension liability is a real issue, and I am betting all 35 churches have been receiving benefits through the Rio conference for decades.
The exit fee is supposed to address that. Their is enough of a contractual paper trail that the idea of walking with paying something of the debts each church owes is a total pipe dream.
Still, 3rd parties are coming up with valuations that are in turn being levied, so it does make sense to scrutinize the fairness of valuations.
I do know that most churches for decades have received a big helping hand from the larger UMC with loans for maintenance of physical plant. I also know that the unfunded clergy pension liability is a real issue, and I am betting all 35 churches have been receiving benefits through the Rio conference for decades.
The exit fee is supposed to address that. Their is enough of a contractual paper trail that the idea of walking with paying something of the debts each church owes is a total pipe dream.
Still, 3rd parties are coming up with valuations that are in turn being levied, so it does make sense to scrutinize the fairness of valuations.
This is the way! FPC in Houston paved the way for this. You can leave without paying a dime. Making them sue you shows their desperation.
TresPuertas said:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6gewzAtqAw/?igsh=cTNhY2NkcnVydXQ4
The female bishop in the video is Sue Haupert-Johnson. She currently oversees Virginia but was previously the bishop over North Georgia, where her actions really ramped up the disaffiliation movement.
She took the unilateral action of reassigning the senior pastor of Mt Bethel UMC, the largest & wealthiest church in the conference, as political payback for being outspoken with the UMC failing to uphold the Book of Discipline. Then as a lovely parting gift to the North GA conference, she issued an edict on her way out the door to "pause" any disaffiliations until after the General Conference due to (wait for it!) "misinformation". It took legal action by almost 200 churches to get the "pause" lifted.
She also reinforces the long-held rule in our household - never trust a woman with two/hypenated last names.
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