U.S. to pause J&J vaccine

10,573 Views | 94 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Proposition Joe
fightingfarmer09
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In reply to Kyle Field Shade Chaser • 1:34p, 4/13/21
Motracicletraficificker said:
PearlJammin said:
Infection_Ag11 said:
Before everyone panics too much, the annual incidence of DVTs in the United States is about 1 per 1000 adults (higher if you look at just women, especially those on birth control).

So 6 cases out of 7 million vaccinated people, especially with all being reproductive age women, is not a particularly striking number and the two are likely unrelated. Worth looking into but the way it's being reported is just more media fear porn without the full context.


The better question is, why pause a vaccine for this kind of low incidence. Are we getting the full story here? Viagra is more deadly than this.

I got J and J shot on Sunday I felt like crap all of yesterday. I certainly would have chosen something else but this is just ridiculous and will throw gasoline on the fires of doubt.
I'm thinking along these lines as well. Feels like there is more to this than 6 blood clot cases out of 7 million...we're not getting the entire story if we are using common sense here.

Like...maybe J&J is directing the pause because they don't want to get sued out the wazoo, as this is not a "minor" side effect. Allows them time to find a fix vaccine or pull the vaccine permanently.


The manufacturers were granted complete immunity from litigation when developing these vaccines.

They aren't worried about anything.
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htxag09
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In reply to P.U.T.U • 1:47p, 4/13/21
AG
P.U.T.U said:
From what they have released this makes zero sense, 50 times more women died in March with Covid than had clots, this is ignoring women on birth control are already at a higher risk of blood clots.

Americans have gotten used to the zero casualty/zero defects lifestyle when this will never happen. Sad thing is people still follow Fauci word by word. For Fauci he keeps kicking the can down the road on reopenings or people to live normal lives. The whole once you get vaccinated you should still double mask and not dine-in is probably not the latest.
This is sad on both sides. One side is on a zero death train, no risk is ok. Other side is almost celebrating this as a "see, getting a vaccine for COVID is dumb since I'm so low risk." Neither side sees their own ignorance.
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BigOil
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In reply to CDub06 • 1:50p, 4/13/21
AG
CDub06 said:
More terrible messaging from the government. This "overabundance of caution" is going to create more hesitancy in people and not just in the J&J vaccine, it'll translate to the others as well. 6 blood clots out of 7 million doses, this is an overreaction...


This type of crap is probably why it takes so long for true FDA approval as well. 1 in 1MM chance of getting their asses sued probably.
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aTm2004
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In reply to htxag09 • 1:58p, 4/13/21
AG
htxag09 said:
P.U.T.U said:
From what they have released this makes zero sense, 50 times more women died in March with Covid than had clots, this is ignoring women on birth control are already at a higher risk of blood clots.

Americans have gotten used to the zero casualty/zero defects lifestyle when this will never happen. Sad thing is people still follow Fauci word by word. For Fauci he keeps kicking the can down the road on reopenings or people to live normal lives. The whole once you get vaccinated you should still double mask and not dine-in is probably not the latest.
This is sad on both sides. One side is on a zero death train, no risk is ok. Other side is almost celebrating this as a "see, getting a vaccine for COVID is dumb since I'm so low risk." Neither side sees their own ignorance.


So, here we are with a popular vaccine being stopped for a small percentage of complications involved. It's kind of funny watching it follow the same path as the reaction to the actual virus and the destruction of millions of lives.

[No grandstanding. - Staff]
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Txhuntr
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In reply to hoosierAG • 2:56p, 4/13/21
AG
hoosierAG said:
I have said several times we have allowed perfect to be the enemy of good in so many things. And as mentioned earlier, J&J is done regardless if it comes back (Fauci just sealed it's fate with that tweet).


I disagree. I have to imagine there are plenty like me who will get a non-mRNA vaccine, or not get one at all. Seeing as I'm not a female, I will try to get another appointment scheduled as soon as it's back online (was supposed to get vaccinated Friday)
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Pendragon12
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In reply to Teslag • 3:03p, 4/13/21
AG
Salute The Marines said:
KidDoc said:
Those cerebral blood clots are incredibly serious. I can understand the pause especially when there are two other superior vaccines already available under EUA.


I can't understand the pause with the given numbers
Because they don't fully understand if there is or is not a link. If they don't pause, they'll be accused of sweeping under the rug that a vaccine is (potentially) causing serious side effects. In the US specifically, there is decent supply of two other vaccines that have been 1) more widely administered, and 2) have not shown the same suspicious reaction(s) and/or have been cleared that any reactions were unrelated.

I understand that to a significant contingent of people, no matter what decision is made, the government will be wrong. I'm not going to argue if they're right or wrong, but if they have a reason to believe that there is something to investigate, and these are more serious clots than those from your average DVT, then pausing for a couple of days to make sure everything is clear doesn't seem unreasonable.

No matter what they did here, there would be a faction of this country that would say they're being stupid and/or dangerous.

Edit: I'd also appreciate if a medical professional could clear up the seriousness/significance of your "typical" blood clot from say, pregnancy or birth control, and the types of clots that are being investigated here. My understanding from a non-medical perspective is these are potentially more serious and aren't treated the same way as the type of clots that are scene more often in the population.
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aTm2004
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In reply to Pendragon12 • 3:48p, 4/13/21
AG
Pendragon12 said:
Salute The Marines said:
KidDoc said:
Those cerebral blood clots are incredibly serious. I can understand the pause especially when there are two other superior vaccines already available under EUA.


I can't understand the pause with the given numbers
Because they don't fully understand if there is or is not a link. If they don't pause, they'll be accused of sweeping under the rug that a vaccine is (potentially) causing serious side effects. In the US specifically, there is decent supply of two other vaccines that have been 1) more widely administered, and 2) have not shown the same suspicious reaction(s) and/or have been cleared that any reactions were unrelated.
If this was the case, why couldn't the do the same with J&J and clear it while still having it available? The fact they stopped because of 6 instances is absurd.
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Pendragon12
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In reply to aTm2004 • 4:12p, 4/13/21
AG
That's a fair question. I'm not saying it's right or this is why, but potentially because there were no alternatives at the time? And I don't remember if there were any significant side effects scene with Moderna and Pfizer. Maybe Pfizer had higher instance of an allergic reaction? I honestly don't recall at this point.

I think if there was nothing else available, then they'd probably deal with J&J similarly. I'm approaching this from a private business perspective, and my own personal risk tolerance, and that's how I'd handle something like this. If there is nothing else out there, I'll roll the dice on the low probabilities.
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aTm2004
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In reply to Pendragon12 • 4:29p, 4/13/21
AG
Out of 7mm doses, 6 cases is 0.00008% of doses administered. You don't pull it out of the market for that kind of risk. There's more at play here, and I'd imagine the money trail will tell the real tale.
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beerad12man
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4:36p, 4/13/21
AG
At worst, you restrict it to those age range women, or not necessarily restrict, just inform them of the issues and let them make their choice. You don't pull it to age/sex that hasn't been affected at all by it.

Yeah, follow the money comes to mind. Only time will tell.
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amercer
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5:44p, 4/13/21
AG
Never suppose there is a conspiracy when incompetence is a possible explanation.
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aTm2004
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In reply to amercer • 6:27p, 4/13/21
AG
This is the government, so...
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Livewire82
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In reply to cone • 6:34p, 4/13/21
Why is pausing/halting a sketchy vaccine being 'crippled by an inability to deal with risk' but literally crippling the world for a cold NOT a pathological 'inability to deal with risk'?
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riverrataggie
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In reply to Livewire82 • 6:37p, 4/13/21
AG
Livewire82 said:
Why is pausing/halting a sketchy vaccine being 'crippled by an inability to deal with risk' but literally crippling the world for a cold NOT a pathological 'inability to deal with risk'?


Come with me sir.
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ORAggieFan
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In reply to Livewire82 • 6:43p, 4/13/21
Livewire82 said:
Why is pausing/halting a sketchy vaccine being 'crippled by an inability to deal with risk' but literally crippling the world for a cold NOT a pathological 'inability to deal with risk'?

Why is the vaccine sketchy?

Do you think calling it a cold helps? I agree we've done an atrocious job on this, but saying things like this help about as much as saying masks work. Many people are dead. How many is debatable, but we can all acknowledge this is far worse than a bad flu season. Tone down the rhetoric so that we can actually have fruitful discussions.
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74Ag1
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In reply to CDub06 • 8:25p, 4/13/21
AG
CDub06 said:
More terrible messaging from the government. This "overabundance of caution" is going to create more hesitancy in people and not just in the J&J vaccine, it'll translate to the others as well. 6 blood clots out of 7 million doses, this is an overreaction...

That's the dumbass government for you
0.00009%
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Hodor
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In reply to Pendragon12 • 9:32p, 4/13/21
AG
Pe said:


Edit: I'd also appreciate if a medical professional could clear up the seriousness/significance of your "typical" blood clot from say, pregnancy or birth control, and the types of clots that are being investigated here. My understanding from a non-medical perspective is these are potentially more serious and aren't treated the same way as the type of clots that are scene more often in the population.
Trying to stay in layman's terms here...

The typical blood clot associated with birth control is a DVT (deep vein thrombosis), which is usually in the veins of the legs. They occur when the normal balance between blood clotting and clots breaking down gets out of whack for some reason, so the clotting factors in your plasma cause the clots to form within the vein. They're pretty common, and birth control increases the risk of developing one by some fraction. When they stay in the leg, they usually don't cause you major problems, but they can break free, and float to the blood vessels in your lungs, causing a pulmonary embolus (PE). There, they can cause major problems, including death. In a young woman, most DVT's and PE's are not fatal, and are successfully treated with blood thinners, which pushes the balance between clotting and breaking down clots the other direction.

The clots that caused the pause form in the veins that drain the blood from your brain. By blocking the blood return from the brain, it causes increased back pressure, and can cause bleeds in the brain. These particular clots are caused by an autoimmune response that basically attacks platelets, and causes them to clump together, which is why platelet levels drop (thombocytopenia). Heparin, a blood thinner that is usually given to treat clots, can rarely cause the same thing, and giving them to treat these clots can make them worse, by increasing the platelet clumping. They can still be treated, but require different medications, so it's important to recognize that these clots aren't the same as the more common DVT.
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De Omnibus Dubitandum
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oragator
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10:22p, 4/14/21
I had a bad reaction to heparin once. Took it and my head blew out to the size of a basketball and was blue. The guy I was sharing the ortho room with asked my family to close the curtain around me so his family didn't have to see it.
Good times.
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Iowaggie
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5:06p, 4/15/21
AG
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aTm2004
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In reply to Iowaggie • 5:11p, 4/15/21
AG
Iowaggie said:
FOR THOSE ABOUT TO CLOT (WE WILL SAVE YOU)!
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TAMUallen
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10:30p, 4/15/21
AG
Strangely enough, I do know a female that has pulmonary embolism after j&j. It could be crazy chance but of course when somebody you know has the problem, it then gets weird. Seems like it could be more than 1 in a million because she's getting zero special attention and I doubt it has been reported to anybody!
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Bird Poo
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7:19a, 4/16/21
AG
No clots that I know of, but I've felt constant nausea since my shot on Sunday. I'm male, mid 40s.
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AgsMyDude
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In reply to TAMUallen • 8:47a, 4/16/21
AG
Crazy, hope she is alright and pulls through!

How long after the shot did she have issues? Seems like most have problems within a couple weeks I think
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94chem
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In reply to oragator • 1:57p, 4/16/21
oragator said:
I had a bad reaction to heparin once. Took it and my head blew out to the size of a basketball and was blue. The guy I was sharing the ortho room with asked my family to close the curtain around me so his family didn't have to see it.
Good times.


Dang ole Violet Beauregard, I tell ya what!
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
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bigtruckguy3500
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In reply to TAMUallen • 12:53a, 4/18/21
TAMUallen said:
Strangely enough, I do know a female that has pulmonary embolism after j&j. It could be crazy chance but of course when somebody you know has the problem, it then gets weird. Seems like it could be more than 1 in a million because she's getting zero special attention and I doubt it has been reported to anybody!
She can, and should, report it herself on VAERS and V-safe.

Would be interesting to know how old she is, if she's on any kind of hormonal therapy for birth control or post-menopausal hormone replacement therapy, she smokes, or has any family history of clotting issues. Also if she had any recent travel or long periods of inactivity (like a long time driving or sitting in a plane).
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Proposition Joe
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In reply to fightingfarmer09 • 4:06p, 4/18/21
fightingfarmer09 said:
Motracicletraficificker said:
PearlJammin said:
Infection_Ag11 said:
Before everyone panics too much, the annual incidence of DVTs in the United States is about 1 per 1000 adults (higher if you look at just women, especially those on birth control).

So 6 cases out of 7 million vaccinated people, especially with all being reproductive age women, is not a particularly striking number and the two are likely unrelated. Worth looking into but the way it's being reported is just more media fear porn without the full context.


The better question is, why pause a vaccine for this kind of low incidence. Are we getting the full story here? Viagra is more deadly than this.

I got J and J shot on Sunday I felt like crap all of yesterday. I certainly would have chosen something else but this is just ridiculous and will throw gasoline on the fires of doubt.
I'm thinking along these lines as well. Feels like there is more to this than 6 blood clot cases out of 7 million...we're not getting the entire story if we are using common sense here.

Like...maybe J&J is directing the pause because they don't want to get sued out the wazoo, as this is not a "minor" side effect. Allows them time to find a fix vaccine or pull the vaccine permanently.


The manufacturers were granted complete immunity from litigation when developing these vaccines.

They aren't worried about anything.

I guarantee you a billion-dollar multinational corporation is worried about potentially producing a vaccine that harms you.
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