Very long article on the possible lab origins of the coronavirus

3,297 Views | 32 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Newoldarmy
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aggiematt07
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Like the article. I think it's interesting how adamant people were early on about there being no possibility of a lab accident. Science rarely works in absolutes. You develop theories and over time you collect data and modify your working hypothesis. 2 months in and lines were drawn and you fell on a side. Then people found data to support their side, ignoring everything else. I like how they wrote the article as a "plausible outcome." No conspiracy theories, just data collected over time. Thanks for posting.
nortex97
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We had a thread I can't now find supporting this, good post.

What we need to do is track down who supported/approved moving this gain of function research to Wuhan, and make sure they are no longer involved in American healthcare spending/research decisions.
Galt
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Thank you for posting. That is an informative article for sure.

I believe this is a similar position that one of our resident MD's stated (Marcus I think?), that the shape of the protein spike was a strong indication that this virus was not a natural evolution.

On another note, it makes me angry that this sort of informed journalism is difficult to find these days. Kudos to the editor that published the article.
The Big12Ag
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Much of the original discussion was suggesting China INTENTIONALLY leaked it, which would get responded to differently than a discussion of an accidental leak. To a person with no knowledge of the lab or it's research, anything should be considered possible but there are also "most likely scenarios" that would be considered before an intentional leak.

There were also articles back in February and March that stated scientists analyzed the DNA of the virus and concluded it was the result of a natural mutation in animals. Hard to know what to believe in articles, even if allegedly claimed to be science.

The linked article above is well done and very detailed.
nortex97
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Yes, but regardless of intent, the 'preponderance of the evidence' standard (meaning greater than 50/50) would tend to lead a fact finder to the conclusion is was probably made by man, given the details there, and the fact that, of all of the earth's grid squares, it was first found in humans within 5 miles of the Wuhan Institute for Virology and Chinese CDC buildings in Wuhan China doing the gain of function testing on bat coronaviruses using significant US funds (NIH/DoD).

Whether they meant to release it or not is quite secondary as to the decisions to develop it/do this research at that facility given all of the warnings (state department and ethical ones) in the first place.
Bucketrunner
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Why are we experimenting with things that could wipe us out?
nortex97
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It's a fair (great) question, but this question quickly gets political. Our previous discussion as one might expect was moved as a consequence (I think).

I certainly don't want to derail/get off topic/the spirit of this board, but it is a question that I think more people need to be asking. This virus has cost trillions and before it's over (if not already) will kill millions.

https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3171584
Bucketrunner
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Thanks. This may be taking Darwinism to its ultimate ending. smh.
P.U.T.U
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At this point we know it came from a lab as pointed out by another in this thread that links to more articles and from the doctors on this board. The USA has been working on SARS like virus coming from bats with the Chinese for years (Atlanta one was shut down, UNC in 2015 was another study) but there are plenty of studies around the world of scientist playing with viruses from other animals.

You also have to step back in think that pandemics typically have happened every 50-100 years in history and we have had 4 in less than 20 years with SARS, H1N1, MERS, and now COVID 19. Yes we do have more people now but this is a pretty big increase. SARS, H1N1, and COVID 19 all came from the same area...
amercer
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Occam's razor says it was a natural transmission from animals to humans. It happens all the time. Doesn't mean it's impossible that it escaped from a lab, it's just implausible. The Chinese will block all attempts to fully investigate the origins, but that's not necessarily indicative of anything. A government like China's views any bad news (even if it's not their fault) as weakness and worthy of a coverup.

I don't think it came from a lab, but it's not crazy to think it might have. What I can say with nearly 100% certainty is that this virus was not engineered. As someone who engineers viruses for a living I'm pretty confident on that one.

notex
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I don't think ocean's razor here would hold to this situation amercer. If anything, the statistical likelihood it came from that specific grid square, naturally, out of all of the earth's places, seems like a big leap.

Some further news/intelligence may be released shortly.

https://summit.news/2021/01/13/report-trump-to-present-bombshell-evidence-that-covid-came-from-wuhan-lab/

That's really all premise on the dailymail piece from yesterday;

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9140251/Trump-team-blame-China-lab-growing-Covid-19.html
Quote:

To this day, scientists who support the theory that the virus is a mutation that emerged from Wuhan's 'wet market' have not been able to find a convincing candidate for the animal in which this mutation actually occurred.

The official explanation is the new virus was 96 percent identical to a bat virus, RaTG13, found in Yunnan province in southern China.

But as Chinese professor Botao Xiao pointed out in a paper in February, no such bats are sold at the city's markets. And the caves where they live are hundreds of miles away.

That paper disappeared from the internet. Mr Xiao perhaps mindful of the fate that awaits those in China who promote inconvenient truths disavowed it.

Many scientists privately assumed an engineered virus released via a laboratory accident was at least as likely as the idea of a series of stunningly unfortunate chance mutations.
Yet, that is over-simplifying it, regarding RaTG13.

The context clues of the Chinese military kicking out the French contractors who built the highest bio security level components at WIV again betray any presumption of innocence/preference to assume innocent research, to me;

Quote:

The lab's highest security 'P4' section was built with French help in a deal signed off by Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier. But after it opened in 2015, the French contingent due to work there were pushed out by China's military.

A WHO spokesman said of its investigation: 'We will follow the science.'

I think the simplest explanation is that the gain of function research being done at WIV is likely to have created the mutation. The directed iterative evolutionary selection process, for which a Nobel prize was awarded, seems like the easiest/most logical way this thing was built.

Quote:

However, the London-based molecular geneticist Dr Michael Antoniou commented that this line of reasoning fails to take into account that there are a number of laboratory-based systems that can select for high affinity RBD variants that are able to take into account the complex environment of a living organism. This complex environment may impact the efficiency with which the SARS-CoV spike protein can find the ACE2 receptor and bind to it. An RBD selected via these more realistic real-world experimental systems would be just as "ideal", or even more so, for human ACE2 binding than any RBD that a computer model could predict. And crucially, it would likely be different in amino acid sequence. So the fact that SARS-CoV-2 doesn't have the same RBD amino acid sequence as the one that the computer program predicted in no way rules out the possibility that it was genetically engineered.
Limits to computer modelling

Dr Antoniou said that the authors' reasoning is not conclusive because it is based largely on computer modelling, which, he says, is "not definitive but only predictive. It cannot tell us whether any given virus would be optimized for infectivity in a real world scenario, such as in the human body. That's because the environment of the human body will influence how the virus interacts with the receptor. You can't model that accurately with computer modelling as there are simply too many variables to factor into the equation."

Dr Antoniou added, "People can put too much faith in computer programs, but they are only a beginning. You then have to prove whether the computer program's prediction is correct or not by direct experimentation in a living organism. This has not been done in the case of this hypothesis, so it remains unproven."

It is even possible that SARS-CoV-2 was optimized using a living organism model, resulting in a virus that is better at infecting humans than any computer model could predict.
scd88
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Made in China. If it wasn't meant to be used for some destructive reason by the Chinese at some point, it wouldn't have been made. That it got out by accident is further reason to continue cutting ties with them.

Yeah, it IS the "China Virus."
HotardRat
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scd88 said:

Made in China. If it wasn't meant to be used for some destructive reason by the Chinese at some point, it wouldn't have been made. That it got out by accident is further reason to continue cutting ties with them.

Yeah, it IS the "China Virus."

Buddy, did you just ignore the mountains of evidence and rational, nuanced discussion above so that you could come in here with this drive-by, inflammatory post?

Try to be part of the solution, not the problem.
Gilligan
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Built, engineered, unnaturally mutated, naturally mutated. Pick your poison.

It came from China and yet Americans and people all over the world continue to buy their crappy cheap products without blinking an eye.

We find their spies everywhere to include A&M.

The world should be at war with China and yet we aren't.

Who's the fools? We should look in the mirror.
Bird Poo
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HotardRat said:

scd88 said:

Made in China. If it wasn't meant to be used for some destructive reason by the Chinese at some point, it wouldn't have been made. That it got out by accident is further reason to continue cutting ties with them.

Yeah, it IS the "China Virus."

Buddy, did you just ignore the mountains of evidence and rational, nuanced discussion above so that you could come in here with this drive-by, inflammatory post?

Try to be part of the solution, not the problem.


He gave the only reasonable solution. Cut ties with China. They're too corrupt and dishonest to take seriously, like all communists.
scd88
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HotardRat said:

scd88 said:

Made in China. If it wasn't meant to be used for some destructive reason by the Chinese at some point, it wouldn't have been made. That it got out by accident is further reason to continue cutting ties with them.

Yeah, it IS the "China Virus."

Buddy, did you just ignore the mountains of evidence and rational, nuanced discussion above so that you could come in here with this drive-by, inflammatory post?

Try to be part of the solution, not the problem.


My "solution" is to hold China accountable. There is nothing inflammatory about that. It is absolutely reasonable to be pissed AT them and not AT the situation. They are corrupt.

They made it in a lab. They were not like the nerds in "Weird Science" who were trying to create the perfect hot girl. No matter if the virus escaped by accident or not, it was made with a great level of intentionality.

Their tentacles ar everywhere. Just this week an A&M professor was fired and another disciplined for their actions related to China. Yeah, cut them out of our lives.
Hincemm
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Interesting note on the poster who mentioned occam's razor (i.e. the simplest explanation is the usually the right one). the poster said that he thinks it was a natural transmission from animal to human. i wholly disagree. the simplest explanation is that the chinese screwed up and it got out.

though the USG takes it in the shorts, and rightfully so to an extent, for the pandemic response, it always fascinates me that there has not been worldwide condemnation of the chinese irresponsibility from the outset and punishments to boot (that i know of)
notex
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Correct. Using Occam's Razor as a principle to assert this was likely a natural mutation/evolution in this case is not logical/correct. To do so requires ignoring the likelihood of that particular bat being sold at that particular market among other variables (including ignoring the research in to the actual bat virus, including GOF variety, across the block).

It's just illogical, without even getting into the scientific analyses/details.
amercer
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Zoonotic transmission of viruses is very common, and there is no current evidence to suggest anything else happened here. Maybe at some point that evidence will turn up, but right now all that's been presented it conjecture and anti Chinese sentiment.

I don't like the Chinese government ether, but that doesn't merit jumping to conclusions unsupported by evidence.
Marcus Aurelius
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7457603/


I've posted this before. SARS-COV-2 has a 4 amino acid furin cleavage insert. It renders it much more infective in hamsters, as this study showed deletion of the site reduced infectivity dramatically.

Hate to put on my tinfoil hat - but what are the odds of a naturally occurring mutant SARS-COV2 with this convenient mRNA addition? 4 AAs in sequence rendering randomly such a altered infectivity rate. Maybe one or two nucleotides by Darwinism? Anyway. That's all I'll say.
Hincemm
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For amercer...

Define very common?

I guess we'll have to disagree that it's that big of a jump to think China would lie. I'm not the type to call it the "China virus" and don't consider myself xenophobic, but if you don't think that the Chinese government habitually lies on a vast majority of topics (work camps, South China Sea, espionage, and the list goes on), then I think you're mistaken.
amercer
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" In fact, furin cleavage sites are found in a number of other CoV family members including MERS-CoV, HKU1-Cov, and OC43-CoV12,13; given the range of disease associated with these CoV strains, the furin cleavage site does not necessarily predetermine virulence."

Virology is fascinating, and it's incredible how small changes can lead to big differences in proteins. But nature samples orders of magnitude more diversity than we can in the lab.
amercer
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Hincemm said:

For amercer...

Define very common?

I guess we'll have to disagree that it's that big of a jump to think China would lie. I'm not the type to call it the "China virus" and don't consider myself xenophobic, but if you don't think that the Chinese government habitually lies on a vast majority of topics (work camps, South China Sea, espionage, and the list goes on), then I think you're mistaken.


My first post in this thread accused China of a coverup, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. The thing to understand about China is that they cover up bad news whether it's really their fault not. They do it all the time for natural disasters because they fear that any bad news makes the government look weak.

So it doesn't mean much in this discussion that China isn't being honest.
Hincemm
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Ah my bad. Misunderstood what you meant
Marcus Aurelius
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I am no virologist. But that figure shows the conserved sequences of the spike protein of the COV2 viruses. The 12 nucleotide / PRRA 4 AA furin cleavage add stands out like a sore thumb.

I have not read the biology about wild type interaction with other SARS viruses. But - I am very suspicious that this isn't natural. We may never know.
amercer
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I'm not a virologist either (protein engineer by training) but I lead a team of scientists whose main goal is to make viruses more infections to humans. So as you might imagine I have a lot of thoughts on this.

1) Covid~19 is the most studied (and sequenced) virus in the word. If there was any sign of engineering we would have found it pretty quickly.

2) China shared the sequence of the virus before any cases had even been found outside of China. Knowing what we do about the Chinese, that seems remarkably unlikely if they knew it was created in a Chinese lab.

3) It's really, really hard to improve on nature. And even if you wanted to build a bio weapon in the lab I doubt you would ever start with a virus like this. If something won't even kill lab animals why would you bother?
amercer
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But anyway I'm not looking to have a long continuous argument over this. I don't know if we'll ever know for sure, but my somewhat educated guess is that Covid really did just jump from animals to humans somewhere in China.

I do look forward to more papers that unravel its evolutionary history and the genetic mechanisms that allow it to be both contagious and so (seemingly) randomly pathogenic.
Marcus Aurelius
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Good insight. My guess is, if it was engineered, it got out by mistake. Not as a weapon. Why SARS-COV-2? No clue. Shi Zhengli might be able to answer that.

Agree that I would choose Ebola, or Marburg or similar if trying to eradicate the planet with a novel strain.
Hincemm
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amercer said:

If something won't even kill lab animals why would you bother?


Though this is a rhetorical question, have you seen how this virus/pandemic has affected our country?
Newoldarmy
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I generally enjoy cleavage whether natural or scientifically enhanced.
Gilligan
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Newoldarmy said:

I generally enjoy cleavage whether natural or scientifically enhanced.


Best post on this thread!
Ranger222
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Marcus,

I've posted my response previously to your claim about the furin cleavage site not being natural. I see that you have chosen to ignore it and repost your opinion. I appreciate your medical updates you bring to the board, but its important that claims like these not be made, especially from someone like you that a lot of the board now goes to for information.

Its becoming quite clear that the RxxR motif (made by the PRRA addition with RRA creating the motif) is important for cleavage and is contained in numerous other coronaviruses that have been sequenced. It is most similar to sequences found in feline coronaviruses.



https://virological.org/t/naturally-occurring-indels-in-multiple-coronavirus-spikes/560



So while the PRRA cleavage site is unique to known infectious human coronaviruses, its actually not unique at all compared to other mammalian coronaviruses and where your claims fall short. Your analysis only considers a very small number of known coronaviruses compared to the vast diversity of these viruses in nature. It also speaks to our lack of surveillance and sequencing of these viruses in general.

It doesn't serve anyone to make these types of claims without a deeper knowledge/understanding. I urge everyone to try and research a bit more before just throwing around misinformation that could shape other's opinions. I agree with amercer -- while a lab escape can not fully be ruled out, the odds significantly favor that this virus is natural and came from nature. The sooner we realize there are real threats from nature, the sooner we can design programs to make sure we are better prepared for these type of crossover events in the future and prevent new pandemics.
Newoldarmy
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RBNSETU.
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