New study - US getting really good at treating Covid

8,791 Views | 73 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by GAC06
Big Al 1992
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This is great news. Mortality down for hospitalized patients - even those high risk.
Aggie95
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i've been saying this for a couple of months. I also have faith the doctors, etc will continue to get even better.
Fitch
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Yup good news is good news indeed.

Aside - Gottlieb is one of the few that have stayed unbiased these last couple months.

ham98
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have you not considered how much better off we would be if the Chinese would have allowed our infectious disease experts into China in October-November when they started having a problem? It has nothing to do with their shi++y doctors. It has everything to do with letting our experts help them develop effective treatments which would reduce the mortality for the rest of us earlier. The communists are to blame for most of our deaths.
Democrat for Trump!
dermdoc
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Big Al 1992 said:

This is great news. Mortality down for hospitalized patients - even those high risk.

Great news. I still think the virus has mutated to a less deadly form also.
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cone
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I hear you on that

we flew blind until Italy

but I don't recall seeing anything about vents being actively harmful (as opposed to just the last line of critical care) until NYC docs realized they were destroying lungs left and right and proning and more O2 was better for mortality

so I'm still thankful that we have a medical system staffed with pragmatic high achievers (as opposed to most of the rest of the world). I had high hopes that once we saw what this was we'd figure it out at least with regard to treatment and I wasn't disappointed.
Keegan99
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Remember the obsession with ventilators, given the ChiCom recommendations?
AgLiving06
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I suspect it's probably "all the above" when it comes to the virus.

Less deadly strain
Doctors know to avoid vents
Much better medical treatment plans than before.
etc,
etc.
PJYoung
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Great but not unexpected news.
amercer
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People continue to sequence the virus constantly, so it's unlikely that a less deadly strain has become the most prevalent one.

It's great to see that treatment has improved so much. At the beginning it was chaos and the kitchen sink. As science and medicine weeded out the treatments that clearly do nothing, it looks like Drs have been able to come up with more effective regimens.
Pasquale Liucci
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I think it was one big psy ops. I brought up all the videos of people dying in the street. Remember the hospitals being built in days?
Capitol Ag
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So, not to get directly political here, but I have seen a reoccuring ad for MJ Hager claiming John Cornyn "refused funding for masks and ventilators". Yet it's pretty well understood that ventilators were killing more than helping. Seems like a weird thing to put in a political ad if you are wanting to win. Not making a comment about one candidate vs the other, this is more about the ad. Seems the group who did the ad should have done a little research if you want your candidate to win, unless I am missing something...
Marcus Aurelius
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Dexamethasone I believe is the key. We aren't using toci anymore. Remdesivir less. Anticoagulation and CVP. Less dying to be sure. But hospitalizations are much higher here now.
Keegan99
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Massive WHO study shows no benefit from Remdesivir. (Other than to Gilead's shareholders, at least.)

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/16/who-remdesivir-has-little-or-no-effect-in-reducing-covid-19-deaths.html
cone
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still waiting on Fauci to comment on that study and how it contradicts his gold star study
Keegan99
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Fauci's Remdesivir study had a major endpoint change mid-study to generate the claim of efficacy.
amercer
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It may not work, but that WHO study isn't a great way to figure that out. At this point though a large phase III clinical trial isn't going to happen so I'm not sure we'll ever get a clear answer.

Small molecule antivirals are really hard to make. Antibodies are too expensive for infections disease. So we treat symptoms and wait on the vaccine.
Not a Bot
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The good news is people aren't dying like they were. The bad news is people are still staying in the hospital for a frickin' long time.

We are running out of room on our Covid floors again. We peaked in early August, dropped by mid-September to about 20% of the peak, now are back up to about 75% of the peak.
Infection_Ag11
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Marcus Aurelius said:

Dexamethasone I believe is the key. We aren't using toci anymore. Remdesivir less. Anticoagulation and CVP. Less dying to be sure. But hospitalizations are much higher here now.


Steroids and a better understanding/treatment of the coagulopathy have definitely been the two biggest factors in lowering the mortality IMO.

The very aggressive attempts by you guys in critical care to avoid intubation if at all possible also seem to be helping, although obviously this could be confounding.
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FlyRod
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This is good news indeed, and my own read is we know way more about this virus now and are vastly better at treating it.

Hopefully we can offer some good news to the "long haulers" soon.
Infection_Ag11
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Keegan99 said:

Fauci's Remdesivir study had a major endpoint change mid-study to generate the claim of efficacy.


Still a beneficial effect, even in the absence of mortality benefit.

Imagine a chemotherapy which doesn't improve mortality (ie those who are going to die are going to do so whether they get it or not) but among those who DONT die those who get this chemotherapy enter remission more quickly. That obviously is a worthwhile therapy at least in certain populations.

Now the debate should be over the cost/benefit analysis
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Infection_Ag11
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Keegan99 said:

Remember the obsession with ventilators, given the ChiCom recommendations?



Ultimately if you have to get intubated, you have to get intubated. We can't save everyone from the vent with steroids, high flow and probing. If you're saturating 70% on all the above and starting to lose consciousness/brady down you can either maybe die on a vent or definitely die in moments off of one.

Can our current strategy prevent a shortage of vents? Almost certainly barring an unforeseen (and at this point likely impossible) and tremendous spike in cases. But this emerging narrative that nobody should be intubated with COVID19 is simply a misunderstanding of how that process works.
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Keegan99
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The standard of care early on was, I believe, "vent early, vent hard", no?

And part of the motivation was to protect doctors and nurses?

Infection_Ag11
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Keegan99 said:

The standard of care early on was, I believe, "vent early, vent hard", no?

And part of the motivation was to protect doctors and nurses?




Marcus is probably a better person to pose this question to, but this disease was initially being managed as we've always managed ARDS. High PEEP, low TV, etc. Many have come to believe the pathophysiology of this disease is related more to intrapulnonary right to left shunts related to microthrombi (that's oversimplified but the point is it's different than primary parenchymal pneumonia). Because of the physiological cascade that follows, you end up with the body selectively shutting off certain alveolar segments with lots of physiologic dead space (places blood isn't getting to) and these areas are very hard to recruit with increased ventilatory pressure. In traditional pneumonia, these air spaces fill with fluid and debris but can be propped open with improved gas exchange by higher pressure. In COVID19, it seems the increased pressure is just shunted to the remaining functional alveoli with gives these alveoli much higher pressures that you think you're exposing them to and this results in worsening lung damage. So many critical care physicians have been trying to delay intubation with high flow, probing and letting patients ride at lower O2 and then if they require intubation they are using lower PEEP.

With respect to intubating as a means of protecting practitioners, I can only say that such a practice would be both highly unethical and not particularly effective at achieving the intended goal. While intubation does represent a closed respiratory system, the process of intubation is very high risk for the person doing the intubating. Moreover, all precautions must still be used given potential fomite and secretion transmission as well as the common complication of unintentional interruption of the respiratory system (patient pulling the tube, accidentally disconnecting the vent, etc.)
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Infection_Ag11
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And I apologize if that explanation wasn't thorough enough and littered with medical jargon, I'm typing this while listening to ID week lectures.
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Marcus Aurelius
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Based off the NY docs experience, the prevailing sentiment is to avoid vents. NY pulm docs allowed sats to the low 80s proned. We are doing this. HFNC is nice for this reason. Also BIPAP obviously being utilized with neg pressure rooms. But cant use proned. If intubated- low peep measures effective. Unlike original Seattle recommendations. ECMO very helpful for salvage - but at a cost and high exposure risk. Anyone in ICU on full anticoagulation.
BadMoonRisin
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Unfortunately, the press is still horrible at reporting any positive information, the politicians are too busy looking at case numbers instead of the number of people that are actually sick and seeking treatment, and the populace is still very bad at responding and adjusting to new information.
I know I ain't leavin' you like I know He ain't leavin' us
I know we believe in God and I know God believes in us
SoulSlaveAG2005
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In last 3 weeks our shipments of convalescent plasma have increased 3 fold from September. An other week of this and we will be back to shipping same numbers from July.

Hospitals are drinking it, but feedback I have heard from docs and co-workers that family was in hospital, said they improved noticeably w/n 24 hrs of transfusion.

Hope it keeps working
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BadMoonRisin
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SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

In last 3 weeks our shipments of convalescent plasma have increased 3 fold from September. An other week of this and we will be back to shipping same numbers from July.

Hospitals are drinking it, but feedback I have heard from docs and co-workers that family was in hospital, said they improved noticeably w/n 24 hrs of transfusion.

Hope it keeps working
Wow that's great news. Im a regular donor now, thanks in part to you and your helpfulness about donating during a pandemic.
I know I ain't leavin' you like I know He ain't leavin' us
I know we believe in God and I know God believes in us
cone
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can you remind of location?

and what's the general age/condition of patient?
SoulSlaveAG2005
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BadMoonRisin said:

SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

In last 3 weeks our shipments of convalescent plasma have increased 3 fold from September. An other week of this and we will be back to shipping same numbers from July.

Hospitals are drinking it, but feedback I have heard from docs and co-workers that family was in hospital, said they improved noticeably w/n 24 hrs of transfusion.

Hope it keeps working
Wow that's great news. Im a regular donor now, thanks in part to you and your helpfulness about donating during a pandemic.


Thank you for sharing that. It means a lot to me personally, to hear that people are giving and that I may have helped. Thank you
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dermdoc
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Infection_Ag11 said:

Keegan99 said:

The standard of care early on was, I believe, "vent early, vent hard", no?

And part of the motivation was to protect doctors and nurses?




Marcus is probably a better person to pose this question to, but this disease was initially being managed as we've always managed ARDS. High PEEP, low TV, etc. Many have come to believe the pathophysiology of this disease is related more to intrapulnonary right to left shunts related to microthrombi (that's oversimplified but the point is it's different than primary parenchymal pneumonia). Because of the physiological cascade that follows, you end up with the body selectively shutting off certain alveolar segments with lots of physiologic dead space (places blood isn't getting to) and these areas are very hard to recruit with increased ventilatory pressure. In traditional pneumonia, these air spaces fill with fluid and debris but can be propped open with improved gas exchange by higher pressure. In COVID19, it seems the increased pressure is just shunted to the remaining functional alveoli with gives these alveoli much higher pressures that you think you're exposing them to and this results in worsening lung damage. So many critical care physicians have been trying to delay intubation with high flow, probing and letting patients ride at lower O2 and then if they require intubation they are using lower PEEP.

With respect to intubating as a means of protecting practitioners, I can only say that such a practice would be both highly unethical and not particularly effective at achieving the intended goal. While intubation does represent a closed respiratory system, the process of intubation is very high risk for the person doing the intubating. Moreover, all precautions must still be used given potential fomite and secretion transmission as well as the common complication of unintentional interruption of the respiratory system (patient pulling the tube, accidentally disconnecting the vent, etc.)
Yep, but it takes a while to figure it out. Thank you for all you do. I will go burn another wart.
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Infection_Ag11
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Some of the skin manifestations of this disease have been pretty interesting. Acral ischemia, livedo, leukocytoclastic vasculitis, etc. I haven't seen this but some have reported diffuse urticaria as well as a dengue like morbilliform rash.

My least favorite skin thing is probably pyoderma gangrenosum. Some hospitalist always swabs it, it always grows staph or pseudomonas and I get to decide if this thing is really secondarily infected or just colonized. It's especially fun when it's a nasty MDR pseudomonas and they want to use Zerbaxa or colistin or some *****
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dermdoc
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Infection_Ag11 said:

Some of the skin manifestations of this disease have been pretty interesting. Acral ischemia, livedo, leukocytoclastic vasculitis, etc. I haven't seen this but some have reported diffuse urticaria as well as a dengue like morbilliform rash.

My least favorite skin thing is probably pyoderma gangrenosum. Some hospitalist always swabs it, it always grows staph or pseudomonas and I get to decide if this thing is really secondarily infected or just colonized. It's especially fun when it's a nasty MDR pseudomonas and they want to use Zerbaxa or colistin or some *****
I am the Pyoderma gangrenous man.

Weird that I was at Baylor for years and saw maybe three cases of PG. Move home to Beaumont and it seemed like I saw PG as hospital consults about one time a month. Always those East Texas 6foot 120pound smokin no insurance guys. And I started drawing Hep C and they were all positive.

Too lazy to write them up but it was a definite thing. And already had an adequate CV. I think today those are meth heads.

Calciphylaxis was another one of my specialties. Bad crap there.

And pg only responds to steroids and maybe biologics. What you do is give high dose steroids to get it under control and start probably Humira for the rebound. I actually think alternate day steroids is better and a lot cheaper.

The secondary "infection" on pg is bullcrap. Use Silvadene.
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Infection_Ag11
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I've only ever treated the ones with objective evidence of infection (fever, raging white count I can't otherwise explain, etc.) If it's just a draining PG (which is 90% of the time) I tell them to stop systemic antibiotics because they're just gonna get C. Diff with no benefit. I've only ever seen one patient with it I'm very confident actually had an infection (his blood cultures grew the same pseudomonas isolate as the skin biopsy culture and his whole leg was cellulitic).

We saw it a lot at the Dallas VA in fellowship as well as at CUH, probably 1-2 a month and yeah they were usually smokers with Hep C. Not so much at Parkland for whatever reason.
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