13 sailors aboard Roosevelt retest positive for coronavirus a 2nd time

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Carolin_Gallego
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https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Five-sailors-aboard-Roosevelt-carrier-retest-15273804.php
Quote:

All five sailors had previously tested positive and were evacuated off the ship, which has been stuck in Guam since late March after the virus swept through the close quarters of the nuclear-powered carrier. They spent at least 14 days in quarantine on the island; the healthy sailors isolated in individual hotel rooms and the infected sailors together in group quarantine on the naval base. The sailors were allowed back on the Roosevelt only after testing negative twice, the tests administered at least 48 hours apart.

The Navy said those handful of sailors who retested positive this week "met rigorous recovery criteria, exceeding CDC guidelines."
Quote:

A defense official said this new issue arose when one sailor, who had been asymptomatic even after testing positive and in group quarantine on the base, began to show flu-like symptoms. Contact tracing led to about 20 other sailors, and four of those tested positive. The others tested negative and were sent to Guam hotels to begin a new round of 14-day quarantine, the official said.
Quote:

"This is not behaving like any infectious disease I have heard of if these tests are accurate," said John Swartzberg, a UC Berkeley infectious disease expert. "None of this makes sense."

Flawed testing perhaps?

ETA: Correction. It's up to 13 sailors now.
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AgResearch
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Quote:

who had been asymptomatic even after testing positive
False positive tests
Carolin_Gallego
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Hope so. Maybe they received a bad batch of tests. If so, that does not bode well for our nation's testing strategy.
We believe progress is made through MORE discussion, not LESS, and we believe that to be true even if the topics are uncomfortable and we occasionally disagree with one another. - TexAgs
The name-calling technique making false associations is a child's game. The propagandist who uses this technique hopes that the audience will reject a person and their argument on this false basis.
lunchbox
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Doc Rev has posted something this week about a study that hinted at the possibility of asymptomatic people not having as many antibodies as those that had symptoms and recovered. "Full" immunity may not exist in the asymptomatic.
Carolin_Gallego
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Interesting. Do you have a link to the study, or his post?
We believe progress is made through MORE discussion, not LESS, and we believe that to be true even if the topics are uncomfortable and we occasionally disagree with one another. - TexAgs
The name-calling technique making false associations is a child's game. The propagandist who uses this technique hopes that the audience will reject a person and their argument on this false basis.
lunchbox
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Carolin_Gallego said:

Interesting. Do you have a link to the study, or his post?
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2693159277633679&id=1998386763777604&__tn__=K-R

Quote:

Researchers at Mount Sinai who are currently enrolling 15,000 patients for plasma donation, so far they have tested 624 people so far and only 511 had high levels of antibodies, 42 had low levels and 71 had none initially but 64 were found to have weak antibodies a week later. So this brings into question if people who were asymptomatic initially will mount a strong enough response to have any immunity to a recurrent infection.

https://gabio.org/after-recovery-from-the-coronavirus-most-people-carry-antibodies/?fbclid=IwAR2_ehTODm4XZFuodsxAz6uZzNBXCtpkaA2Mydz7nChW_Wl2TgejTvSEBtE

It was actually Rev speculating about whether the asymptomatic would have the antibodies to fight off a 2nd infection.
Carolin_Gallego
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eric76
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Carolin_Gallego said:

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Five-sailors-aboard-Roosevelt-carrier-retest-15273804.php
Quote:

All five sailors had previously tested positive and were evacuated off the ship, which has been stuck in Guam since late March after the virus swept through the close quarters of the nuclear-powered carrier. They spent at least 14 days in quarantine on the island; the healthy sailors isolated in individual hotel rooms and the infected sailors together in group quarantine on the naval base. The sailors were allowed back on the Roosevelt only after testing negative twice, the tests administered at least 48 hours apart.

The Navy said those handful of sailors who retested positive this week "met rigorous recovery criteria, exceeding CDC guidelines."
Quote:

A defense official said this new issue arose when one sailor, who had been asymptomatic even after testing positive and in group quarantine on the base, began to show flu-like symptoms. Contact tracing led to about 20 other sailors, and four of those tested positive. The others tested negative and were sent to Guam hotels to begin a new round of 14-day quarantine, the official said.
Quote:

"This is not behaving like any infectious disease I have heard of if these tests are accurate," said John Swartzberg, a UC Berkeley infectious disease expert. "None of this makes sense."

Flawed testing perhaps?

ETA: Correction. It's up to 13 sailors now.

I was wondering if maybe the first test might have been a false positive.
Not a Bot
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AG
Studies on the "repeat positives" in South Korea determined the PCR tests were picking up viral remnants and the people were not actually infected a second time.

Good journalists would have reported this, but after the "reinfections" (that they plastered all over headlines in April) turned out to be BS they barely followed up to correct the information.

And it seems in this case they found the most alarmist quotes they could find to publish.
Carnwellag2
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Quote:


Quote:

A defense official said this new issue arose when one sailor, who had been asymptomatic even after testing positive and in group quarantine on the base, began to show flu-like symptoms. Contact tracing led to about 20 other sailors, and four of those tested positive. The others tested negative and were sent to Guam hotels to begin a new round of 14-day quarantine, the official said.
Quote:

"

do even the sailors identified through contact tracing who tested negative had to start a 14-day quarantine? Tjat can't be the standard of a functioning society
Not a Bot
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The head of the South Korean CDC stated as such in a press conference in late April. Again, it barely got any media attention in the United States. Of course they could be wrong.

https://www.newsweek.com/south-korea-experts-say-recovered-coronavirus-patients-retested-positive-because-dead-virus-parts-1500998

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/coronavirus-south-korea-patients-infected-twice-test-a9491986.html

Jmiller
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Complete speculation. Nobody knows and it is quite possible that reinfection and re-transmission is possible with this virus.

Where are the studies to which you referred in your other comment?
California Ag 90
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Jmiller said:

Complete speculation. Nobody knows and it is quite possible that reinfection and re-transmission is possible with this virus.

Where are the studies to which you referred in your other comment?
if you eliminate 'complete speculation' from the past three months of authoritative statements about this virus, including those of renowned medical leaders quoted on this forum, there would be no threads at all.

just sayin'.

We're from North California, and South Alabam
and little towns all around this land...
GAC06
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Speculation is ok as long as it's predicting doom
Jerkin_my_durkin
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Research show that even if you survive covid you will still die at some point.
Not a Bot
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Jmiller said:

Complete speculation. Nobody knows and it is quite possible that reinfection and re-transmission is possible with this virus.

Where are the studies to which you referred in your other comment?


The studies conducted by the South Korean CDC on their "reinfected" patients that they have now discussed multiple times in the news media. I don't know if they've published their data publicly yet in terms of an academictype paper or not. I would love to read it. What they did say was that they could not isolate any live virus from these "reinfections" nor could they determine any new infections in close contacts with these people, and their contact tracing capability is very extensive.

They did say, similar to some of the Roosevelt crew, that some were having some mild symptoms. As of right now I don't think anyone knows what's causing that. Could be a lot of things.

I totally agree with you that long-term, we don't know yet about reinfections. But we do know that at least in the South Korean "reinfections" that those people were likely not reinfected and were not contagious.
BiochemAg97
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Moxley said:

Jmiller said:

Complete speculation. Nobody knows and it is quite possible that reinfection and re-transmission is possible with this virus.

Where are the studies to which you referred in your other comment?


The studies conducted by the South Korean CDC on their "reinfected" patients that they have now discussed multiple times in the news media. I don't know if they've published their data publicly yet in terms of an academictype paper or not. I would love to read it. What they did say was that they could not isolate any live virus from these "reinfections" nor could they determine any new infections in close contacts with these people, and their contact tracing capability is very extensive.

They did say, similar to some of the Roosevelt crew, that some were having some mild symptoms. As of right now I don't think anyone knows what's causing that. Could be a lot of things.

I totally agree with you that long-term, we don't know yet about reinfections. But we do know that at least in the South Korean "reinfections" that those people were likely not reinfected and were not contagious.


We don't know for certain about reinfections.
Most viruses have at least some lasting immunity, so seems odd to speculate without evidence that this virus would behave differently.
the best example of testing "reinfected" patients shows the reinfection to be false and rather a very sensitive test detecting residual non infectious parts of the virus.

Taking all the knowledge we have, the most reasonable assumption is there is some time period of immunity. But that isn't scary enough so it is much more fun for the WHO, "experts", media to talk about reinfection to create more fear.


We have no idea how long immunity would last, could be months or it could be years. But that is a question that has to be answered over time. Also what level of immunity (antibody titter) is protective. This is important for how to deal with vaccinations long term. Do we need boosters every year, so we need several in a series to confer a more permanent immunity.
Marcus Aurelius
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As I mentioned in a prior thread, I had an elderly SNF female patient admitted to ICU with COVID-19. She survived. However she had at least 10 pos swabs well after the illness was over. SNF requires 2 negative swabs in a row before they take pts back. Finally, a separate SNF opened that takes only these patients and she was sent there. No COVID-19 symptoms. Has to be inactive dead viral RNA remaining. PCR is damn sensitive.
ElephantRider
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At the same time, I think it's off to just assume that there is long-term immunity and that herd immunity is the end-all, be-all
BiochemAg97
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ElephantRider said:

At the same time, I think it's off to just assume that there is long-term immunity and that herd immunity is the end-all, be-all


Why? That is how the immune system and just about every other virus works. The only exception I can think of are HIV which attacks the immune system.

You have to start making assumptions until you have real evidence to the contrary. And we have evidence to support immunity, animal studies in monkeys show getting the virus and getting better produces a durable immune response that prevents reinfection and animal studies with the candidate vaccines create a durable immune response that prevents infections.

Now, by long term I don't mean permanent. We have a number of things that we get boosters for periodically. The question is how long between boosters. 6 months sucks, a year is workable (get it with your annual flu shot) but annoying, 10 years is like tetanus and I usually forget when I had one before I need it again.
ElephantRider
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BiochemAg97 said:

ElephantRider said:

At the same time, I think it's off to just assume that there is long-term immunity and that herd immunity is the end-all, be-all


Why? That is how the immune system and just about every other virus works. The only exception I can think of are HIV which attacks the immune system.

You have to start making assumptions until you have real evidence to the contrary. And we have evidence to support immunity, animal studies in monkeys show getting the virus and getting better produces a durable immune response that prevents reinfection and animal studies with the candidate vaccines create a durable immune response that prevents infections.

Now, by long term I don't mean permanent. We have a number of things that we get boosters for periodically. The question is how long between boosters. 6 months sucks, a year is workable (get it with your annual flu shot) but annoying, 10 years is like tetanus and I usually forget when I had one before I need it again.


I've seen a lot of people assuming permanent immunity. That's what I was referring to.
BusterAg
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I'm thinking that there might be relapses.

I'm pretty sure I had Covid in March, along with my wife, at the some time. We got better. Never tested, even for antibodies, because it is tough to get scheduled.

My wife and I are starting to develop some skin rashes some 2 months later. Same rashes, look a lot like some picks online. They go away after a couple of days, but move to a different area on the body.

This stupid virus is a beast.
GAC06
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The virus that you didn't get tested for is a beast? Strange post.
BusterAg
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GAC06 said:

The virus that you didn't get tested for is a beast? Strange post.
Not many other diseases out there where you lose your sense of taste, develop conjunctivitis, develop flu like symptoms for about a week with lowish fever, lots of lower intestinal problems with no nausea, and have a dry hacking cough follow up for a month. So, yes, self diagnosis.

I'm not 100% certain it was Covid, but I'm at 98%.
Reveille
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I wrote on immunity about a week ago. But there are several things to consider when someone is "reinfected".

1. Was the test a false positive the first time?
2. Was the test that cleared them just a false negative and now they are still testing positive with the same infection. As Marcus mentioned it is hard to get patients out of the hospital as many are still testing positive for many many weeks past infection. They may still have viral particles but not active infection making the test positive.
3. Was the patient symptomatic or asymptomatic the first time? What if asymptomatic patients did not get a high enough viral exposure to mount enough a strong enough immune response to prevent reinfection as I mentioned with antibody titters previously. I think this is a possible concern, even though I hope this is the case. Like BiochemAg97 mentioned we have the monkey test proving immunity but the monkeys were all symptomatic infections which would likely mount a stronger response. We don't have data on the asymptomatic infections but we suspect that they would likely still have immunity.
4. We don't have data on long the immunity will last. Weeks, months, years etc.

I completely agree with BiochemAg that we should not jump the gun. We have no evidence to believe that this virus will act any different that other viruses for which we have seen immunity develop. As for HIV this virus does not enter the nucleus of T-cells and integrate into the DNA like HIV so that is a huge difference.

Finally, if you read some of my older posts I said the media will jump on the first cases that get "reinfected" as doom and gloom. Unfortunately, this is what they like to do rather bring up all of the actual other possibilities. But that does not make it so. Time will tell us more on immunity but no need to panic at all at this point.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
laavispa
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Quote:

The aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt will return to sea later this week, nearly two months after the ship was sidelined in Guam....

would sail with a scaled-back crew of about 3,000. That will leave about 1,800 sailors on shore...

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-05-19/uss-roosevelt-heads-back-sea-after-coronavirus-controversy

So she is sailing with only about 63% of crew and a new CO.
texan12
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One covid death along with a high amount of positive cases from those aboard the Roosevelt. I imagine this is a great sample size to study.
JJxvi
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I'm not saying that this coronavirus is like them, but there are many viruses besides HIV that are never eliminated from the body and can reside inactive causing occasional flare ups of symptoms.
Reveille
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JJxvi said:

I'm not saying that this coronavirus is like them, but there are many viruses besides HIV that are never eliminated from the body and can reside inactive causing occasional flare ups of symptoms.
Very true HPV and herpes are too famous one that do so.
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KidDoc
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Reveille said:

JJxvi said:

I'm not saying that this coronavirus is like them, but there are many viruses besides HIV that are never eliminated from the body and can reside inactive causing occasional flare ups of symptoms.
Very true HPV and herpes are too famous one that do so.
Those are DNA viruses, outside of HIV most RNA viruses don't tend to become dormant and hide.

Seems like almost all of the DNA viruses share this characteristic. I'm not saying it is impossible for COVID but it would be a huge leap from other RNA respiratory viruses.

No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
BiochemAg97
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KidDoc said:

Reveille said:

JJxvi said:

I'm not saying that this coronavirus is like them, but there are many viruses besides HIV that are never eliminated from the body and can reside inactive causing occasional flare ups of symptoms.
Very true HPV and herpes are too famous one that do so.
Those are DNA viruses, outside of HIV most RNA viruses don't tend to become dormant and hide.

Seems like almost all of the DNA viruses share this characteristic. I'm not saying it is impossible for COVID but it would be a huge leap from other RNA respiratory viruses.


Also, that doesn't prevent a vaccine. HPV has a vaccine as does chickenpox.

So, even if you integrated into the genome of some cells, what does a flare up look like. A sudden cough for a couple days. Mild asymptomatic case for a few days. Sure you can potentially spread it, but if everyone is vaccinated, there isn't an issue.
BiochemAg97
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KidDoc said:

Reveille said:

JJxvi said:

I'm not saying that this coronavirus is like them, but there are many viruses besides HIV that are never eliminated from the body and can reside inactive causing occasional flare ups of symptoms.
Very true HPV and herpes are too famous one that do so.
Those are DNA viruses, outside of HIV most RNA viruses don't tend to become dormant and hide.

Seems like almost all of the DNA viruses share this characteristic. I'm not saying it is impossible for COVID but it would be a huge leap from other RNA respiratory viruses.


Just to emphasize this point... to convert the RNA into DNA to integrate into the cell genome, HIV has a reverse transcriptase. Corona does not. The corona RNA genome is used to make mRNA to make proteins and to make more RNA copies. At no point is the RNA reverse transcribed into DNA, so it cannot integrate into the cell genome.

If this new corona virus contained a reverse transcriptase, it would have been obvious from the first sequence published back in Jan. To completely alter the virus life cycle like that wouldn't have happened by accident, but would require a very sophisticated level of genetic engineering. We wouldn't be debating if it came out of the Chinese lab. Rather the debate would be about the Chinese stealing it from someone else or are they really that advanced in genetic manipulation of viruses.
beerad12man
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ElephantRider said:

BiochemAg97 said:

ElephantRider said:

At the same time, I think it's off to just assume that there is long-term immunity and that herd immunity is the end-all, be-all


Why? That is how the immune system and just about every other virus works. The only exception I can think of are HIV which attacks the immune system.

You have to start making assumptions until you have real evidence to the contrary. And we have evidence to support immunity, animal studies in monkeys show getting the virus and getting better produces a durable immune response that prevents reinfection and animal studies with the candidate vaccines create a durable immune response that prevents infections.

Now, by long term I don't mean permanent. We have a number of things that we get boosters for periodically. The question is how long between boosters. 6 months sucks, a year is workable (get it with your annual flu shot) but annoying, 10 years is like tetanus and I usually forget when I had one before I need it again.


I've seen a lot of people assuming permanent immunity. That's what I was referring to.

I haven't seen many people who suggest they think it will last a lifetime, but once we've built up an immunity to this as a whole, it would seem if it does circle back around in the future there's a good chance it's something completely different. By the time if could re-infect people, it may have mutated into the most severe virus known to man, maybe completely fizzle out to nothing, or anywhere in between. I think most just don't see the reason to worry about that now. It's way too far in the future to know.
KidDoc
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BiochemAg97 said:

KidDoc said:

Reveille said:

JJxvi said:

I'm not saying that this coronavirus is like them, but there are many viruses besides HIV that are never eliminated from the body and can reside inactive causing occasional flare ups of symptoms.
Very true HPV and herpes are too famous one that do so.
Those are DNA viruses, outside of HIV most RNA viruses don't tend to become dormant and hide.

Seems like almost all of the DNA viruses share this characteristic. I'm not saying it is impossible for COVID but it would be a huge leap from other RNA respiratory viruses.


Just to emphasize this point... to convert the RNA into DNA to integrate into the cell genome, HIV has a reverse transcriptase. Corona does not. The corona RNA genome is used to make mRNA to make proteins and to make more RNA copies. At no point is the RNA reverse transcribed into DNA, so it cannot integrate into the cell genome.

If this new corona virus contained a reverse transcriptase, it would have been obvious from the first sequence published back in Jan. To completely alter the virus life cycle like that wouldn't have happened by accident, but would require a very sophisticated level of genetic engineering. We wouldn't be debating if it came out of the Chinese lab. Rather the debate would be about the Chinese stealing it from someone else or are they really that advanced in genetic manipulation of viruses.
Thanks for the refresh! It has been 25 years since I took micro haha.

No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
BiochemAg97
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beerad12man said:

ElephantRider said:

BiochemAg97 said:

ElephantRider said:

At the same time, I think it's off to just assume that there is long-term immunity and that herd immunity is the end-all, be-all


Why? That is how the immune system and just about every other virus works. The only exception I can think of are HIV which attacks the immune system.

You have to start making assumptions until you have real evidence to the contrary. And we have evidence to support immunity, animal studies in monkeys show getting the virus and getting better produces a durable immune response that prevents reinfection and animal studies with the candidate vaccines create a durable immune response that prevents infections.

Now, by long term I don't mean permanent. We have a number of things that we get boosters for periodically. The question is how long between boosters. 6 months sucks, a year is workable (get it with your annual flu shot) but annoying, 10 years is like tetanus and I usually forget when I had one before I need it again.


I've seen a lot of people assuming permanent immunity. That's what I was referring to.

I haven't seen many people who suggest they think it will last a lifetime, but once we've built up an immunity to this as a whole, it would seem if it does circle back around in the future there's a good chance it's something completely different. By the time if could re-infect people, it may have mutated into the most severe virus known to man, maybe completely fizzle out to nothing, or anywhere in between. I think most just don't see the reason to worry about that now. It's way too far in the future to know.
My guess is we are more likely to get another corona virus from another animal rather than this one mutating to something so different. With a vaccine widely deployed, we would prevent any CoV targeted by the vaccine and the next one will not be effected by the vaccine.

Some good antivirals to CoVs in general would be nice to have to contain the next one until a modified vaccine can be deployed.
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