Youth baseball question

8,861 Views | 90 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by TarponChaser
The Silverback
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AG
Having an ongoing debate, any maybe the answer is there is no answer here.

But for youth baseball players, is it better hitting posture to have the back elbow up or down?

Example of up:


And Down:


I have a 7-year-old and have two very passionate people helping him perfect his stance and both are adamite they are right and the other is wrong.
Bassmaster
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Doesn't matter where you start, but you have to get to launch position after the step. Actual launch can't be achieved without the elbow up. If the batter doesn't stride, he should start with the elbow up.
12Power
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No. That is old school. If you watch college and pro, no one is the same, but they eventually get the bat through the zone the same way. Michael Brantley has great mechanics. See him.
wareagle044
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I'd get one passionate person teaching him one thing
Sandman98
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Guys willing to die on a hill for a stance tip that is variable and ultimately meaningless is what's wrong with the instruction culture today. Try someone else and hope the next one says they don't care where the elbow starts and starts with the feet and works up.
85AustinAg
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In short, it doesn't matter. Its about what happens next.

Often times the elbow is told to be up in order to correct a hitch in the swing, the dropping of hands, etc as swing continues.
Farmer1906
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Bassmaster said:

Doesn't matter where you start, but you have to get to launch position after the step. Actual launch can't be achieved without the elbow up. If the batter doesn't stride, he should start with the elbow up.
Exactly.

They all get to this position. The rest is just timing.



Farmer1906
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Here are Tuve and Griffey both getting to that spot.

Texagsubscriber
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Stop listening to amateurs. Hope this helps.

NATTY OR BUST. BUST IT IS.

GIVE ME NATTY, OR GIVE ME BAS!!!
greg.w.h
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Texagsubscriber said:

Stop listening to amateurs. Hope this helps.


He explains why and in what plane to rotate the bat, and hints at how you can remind yourself to set up your hands and leaves it to you to use the rotation tool on inside, over plate, and outside swings. But hardly comprehensive hitting instruction or "pro". Very interesting perspective especially in our big fly emphasizing era.
SMM48
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Ken Griffey Jr. came out of the womb with that stance....so did Altuve.

it doesn't matter.

He's 7. Let him swing away.
ptothemo
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Blue star for you for finding those pictures. Seeing that is really cool.
12thMan9
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If you notice, all the pics have the knob pointed back towards the catcher. Even Griffey & Altuve accomplish it w/the elbows in different locations.

We teach taking the knob back at the pitcher, hands inside, but beginning w/getting that front foot down in the load to get things started.

And yes, pick 1 guy.
Ronnie '88
TarponChaser
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Texagsubscriber said:

Stop listening to amateurs. Hope this helps.



There's a whole damn lot of hitting coaches out there who will tell you to avoid that dude's lessons like the plague. And I agree with them. His whole philosophy is not good for kids.

His method calls for dumping the barrel and creating a big, looping upper-cut swing. Neither should the kid be learning the whole "downward" path, "chopping wood." The dude in the video, especially for kids, will create a swing that fouls off a ton of pitches to the opposite field because they're dragging the barrel or weak pop ups or just plain misses. I saw it with my own kid- he hit a couple bombs and then instead of focusing on hitting line drives from gap to gap he started trying to create that launch angle and it completely destroyed his swing which has since been rebuilt and is much, much better now.

Regardless of where he starts his swing and stance, he needs to be taught to get the knob of the bat to the ball, try to keep the hands inside & above the ball, and worry about making solid contact hitting line drives from gap to gap. The power will come as he grows and gets bigger and stronger.

There will be kids with a swing like this dude is teaching who hit bombs when they're younger but they'll be screwed when they get older and face good pitching.

The dude has video of Mike Trout in the cage saying he's doing his barrel dumping thing when he's not- he's going inside out to shoot a line drive into right center on a pitch low & in. He pulls his hands in, stays above the ball, and hits what would be a base hit on a tough pitch to handle. If you dump the barrel like this coach is saying you're not getting a hit there.

This is pic is from Ted Williams's book "The Science of Hitting" and I'd say ol' Teddy Ballgame knew a thing or two about hitting. This is the bat path you're looking for:



Personally, I love this video breaking down Mookie Betts's swing by Jim Thome (who knows a thing or two about hitting- career .276/.402/.554 with a .956 OPS and 612 HR) and Harold Reynolds refuting the launch angle approach from this "Teacherman" guy.

Mookie Betts's swing

My older son's favorite player is Yordan Alvarez and even though he's a righty he wears #44 and tries to pattern his swing after Alvarez as much as possible. Look how compact, short to the baseball, and the path he has- there's none of this barrel dumping or drag here.



Aggie
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I prefer Down

It creates a shorter swing path and eliminates separation from body in the load with younger players

Lets not try to teach MLB swings to 7 year old kids

Problem today is too many kids try to hit homeruns and get caught it in terms like " launch angle"
May hit some home runs on 200 foot fields with a drop 10 bat. Yippee de doo

Then they get a HS level and can't hit .150 because all they do if pop up and strikeout because they have a God awful swing path

Drop the back elbow and create a short swing path and lean to control the bat and hit barrel contact to all parts of the field . Become a complete hitter
third deck
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Tarpon is right on.

One of my closest friends played in the Marlins organization for many years. He played in the Cape Cod league and played in the Pac10 through college. His dad was a long time MLB scout. This guy can go as technical as you want on the hitting approach and swing mechanics.

He gave my son the best hitting advice when he was a young player. He basically said to keep things simple and focus on one thing… bat path. Keep it simple, and try to achieve the "Nike swoosh" bat path. If you want to say "take the knob to the ball" or "stay inside the ball" or "be short with the swing", all the same, you want that Nike swoosh, compact bat path.

The Ted Williams image Tarpon shows describes this perfectly. When the bat path is good, the contact window is extended. When the bat path is non-ideal, the window of contact shrinks and you have to be nearly perfect with timing.
TarponChaser
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Here's the video of Trout in the cage I'm talking about. He's not remotely dumping his barrel like this Teacherman dude claims. It's a low & inside pitch where he pulls his hands in, stays on top, and inside-outs his swing to shoot what would be a line drive base hit to RC (depending on the shift).



And I'm not sure what he's talking about with this "snap the barrel rearward" but I'm not seeing it.

Even his use of the "wall drill" as he calls it belies his philosophy and is counter to what he's teaching elsewhere.



On a low pitch like they're working, nobody is teaching you to stay horizontal or have the chopping swing. This is my oldest from about a year ago. On a low pitch the bat path and barrel necessarily have a downward track but the shoulders & hands are strong not with the barrel dumped and the hands/wrists tilted down.



Like this "knob up" lesson with the hands tilting, dumping the barrel, and dropping the back shoulder is a recipe for disaster.

Farmer1906
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One thing I've noticed over the years, people have these little sayings which make sense in their heads, but maybe not in everyone else's.
Bassmaster
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That "knob up" video! I've never seen this guy before. People actually listen to him?
TarponChaser
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Bassmaster said:

That "knob up" video! I've never seen this guy before. People actually listen to him?

Evidently he's Aaron Judge's off-season hitting coach but he's also evidently in multiple Twitter fights with other hitting coaches who crush his mechanics.
Farmer1906
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TarponChaser said:

Bassmaster said:

That "knob up" video! I've never seen this guy before. People actually listen to him?

Evidently he's Aaron Judge's off-season hitting coach but he's also evidently in multiple Twitter fights with other hitting coaches who crush his mechanics.



Sounds like it's working.
TarponChaser
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Farmer1906 said:

TarponChaser said:

Bassmaster said:

That "knob up" video! I've never seen this guy before. People actually listen to him?

Evidently he's Aaron Judge's off-season hitting coach but he's also evidently in multiple Twitter fights with other hitting coaches who crush his mechanics.



Sounds like it's working.


But watch Judge swing. He's not doing this *****

At best you can say the drills are exaggerated for effect which may be fine for a pro to hone in on a couple small things but not a youth just learning to hit.
Farmer1906
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I think AT BEST he could get some serious credit for turning a great hitter into one that's having an all time great season.
TarponChaser
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Farmer1906 said:

I think AT BEST he could get some serious credit for turning a great hitter into one that's having an all time great season.

The biggest differences for Judge this year vs. any other season are: 1) selectiveness- he's not going out there swinging at everything and will walk over 100 times this season, more than any season since his rookie year; and 2) his balance- he's not trying to pull everything and overswinging, he's letting his strength work for him which when combined with his improved selectiveness gets you where he's at now.

Show me in this slo-mo video of his swing where he's doing anything that this Teacherman dude is advocating, except maybe the coil/load which is pretty universal among hitting coaches. He's not dumping the barrel or trying to create launch angle.



Like I said, he may have insights to fine tune a professional's swing but his messages about the hands, wrists, and dumping the barrel are a recipe for disaster for kids.
Farmer1906
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His Swing% & Chase% are almost identical to 2021. He's very slightly swinging at more in zone and few out, but its not some radical change. His biggest difference is launch angle. He's elevating the ball more and barrel a ton more which is why so many of his hard hits are now HRs.
Bassmaster
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So you think he dumps his barrel, and if so, that it is good advice because he's having a great season?
P.U.T.U
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SMM48 said:

Ken Griffey Jr. came out of the womb with that stance....so did Altuve.

it doesn't matter.

He's 7. Let him swing away.
Disagree, baseball is a sport based on technique and repetition, it teaches them to get better you need to listen and work on what you are being taught. No difference than the same age kid learning some kind of martial arts. I notice the kids that are progressing are the ones that put in the work and ask questions.

At 7 just teach the basics and progress based on each current kid's talent and technique. We just finished our third 8u game and we have outscored the other teams over 60-8 and this is with holding kids on the bases. I did a one minute video for my kids on how to get set up at the plate and give them drills they can work on at home. Goal is to keep it simple

The most important thing is over 3 seasons we have only lost 2 players and both were to select teams (both are extremely talented and competitive) and they keep playing. I read somewhere by the age of 13 70% of kids that start competitive sports drop out. Winning helps but them having fun and bonding with their teammates matters more.
Farmer1906
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Bassmaster said:

So you think he dumps his barrel, and if so, that it is good advice because he's having a great season?
This is kind of what I mentioned before. You said "dump his barrel". That could mean different things to different people. That sounds like you're making bourbon to me.

The barrel should be perpendicular to the batter or the batter's spine. It needs to get there in an efficient manner and match the plane of the ball as best as possible. I don't think this youtube guy is saying anything contrary to that,
Farmer1906
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Farmer1906 said:

His Swing% & Chase% are almost identical to 2021. He's very slightly swinging at more in zone and few out, but its not some radical change. His biggest difference is launch angle. He's elevating the ball more and barrel a ton more which is why so many of his hard hits are now HRs.
And to add to this, the slider used to be one of the best ways to get him out. Now he crushes it more than any other pitch. He's either tweaked something to handle it or figured out how to recognize them. IDK but it's an extreme change.
SMM48
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kids don't develop muscle memory till 12-14 years old.

what they do at 7...let them swing away.

SMM48
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its a feeling. feel isn't real.

and Aaron Judge would still be Aaron Judge with or without Teacherman, who I know and appreciate.
TarponChaser
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Farmer1906 said:

Bassmaster said:

So you think he dumps his barrel, and if so, that it is good advice because he's having a great season?
This is kind of what I mentioned before. You said "dump his barrel". That could mean different things to different people. That sounds like you're making bourbon to me.

The barrel should be perpendicular to the batter or the batter's spine. It needs to get there in an efficient manner and match the plane of the ball as best as possible. I don't think this youtube guy is saying anything contrary to that,

He absolutely is teaching to dump the barrel. That's the entire message he's delivering with the knob-up approach and the "wall drill." Same for that hula-hoop video.

The term "dumping the barrel" is pretty universal in baseball. It's exactly illustrated in that "knob-up" video.
TarponChaser
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SMM48 said:

its a feeling. feel isn't real.

and Aaron Judge would still be Aaron Judge with or without Teacherman, who I know and appreciate.

You're going to have to translate this for me because I'm not tracking what you're saying.
Farmer1906
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TarponChaser said:

Farmer1906 said:

Bassmaster said:

So you think he dumps his barrel, and if so, that it is good advice because he's having a great season?
This is kind of what I mentioned before. You said "dump his barrel". That could mean different things to different people. That sounds like you're making bourbon to me.

The barrel should be perpendicular to the batter or the batter's spine. It needs to get there in an efficient manner and match the plane of the ball as best as possible. I don't think this youtube guy is saying anything contrary to that,

He absolutely is teaching to dump the barrel. That's the entire message he's delivering with the knob-up approach and the "wall drill." Same for that hula-hoop video.

The term "dumping the barrel" is pretty universal in baseball. It's exactly illustrated in that "knob-up" video.
You missed the point. You just repeated the same phase.

The barrel always starts up and then goes down. The knob is always going to be higher than the barrel even on the highest pitches. Call it whatever "universal" phase you'd like.



TarponChaser
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Farmer1906 said:

TarponChaser said:

Farmer1906 said:

Bassmaster said:

So you think he dumps his barrel, and if so, that it is good advice because he's having a great season?
This is kind of what I mentioned before. You said "dump his barrel". That could mean different things to different people. That sounds like you're making bourbon to me.

The barrel should be perpendicular to the batter or the batter's spine. It needs to get there in an efficient manner and match the plane of the ball as best as possible. I don't think this youtube guy is saying anything contrary to that,

He absolutely is teaching to dump the barrel. That's the entire message he's delivering with the knob-up approach and the "wall drill." Same for that hula-hoop video.

The term "dumping the barrel" is pretty universal in baseball. It's exactly illustrated in that "knob-up" video.
You missed the point. You just repeated the same phase.

The barrel always starts up and then goes down. The knob is always going to be higher than the barrel even on the highest pitches. Call it whatever "universal" phase you'd like.




Tell me you don't know what it means to "dump the barrel" without saying so...
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