Kansas City Star on Game cancellation

6,589 Views | 66 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by dabo man
Agsncws
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HoustonAg2106 said:

Hop said:

85AustinAg said:

Fix the freakin' RPI calculation such that if you win a game your RPI doesn't drop and then get back to me. I support the move all day long based upon the system in place. Notre Dame cancelled a series, I'm sure there are others. Cry me a river...


So how do you fix it? You must have a strength of schedule component in any rating equation, right? It's not an issue when P5 teams are playing directional schools in February and March.



Let every team drop their 3 or 4 lowest mid week RPI wins. Done. Move on.
Why wouldnt an intelligent coach skip this game and STILL drop their 3 or 4 lowest mid week wins. No reason to add another to the bottom of the pile.
Hop
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HoustonAg2106 said:

Hop said:

85AustinAg said:

Fix the freakin' RPI calculation such that if you win a game your RPI doesn't drop and then get back to me. I support the move all day long based upon the system in place. Notre Dame cancelled a series, I'm sure there are others. Cry me a river...


So how do you fix it? You must have a strength of schedule component in any rating equation, right? It's not an issue when P5 teams are playing directional schools in February and March.



Let every team drop their 3 or 4 lowest mid week RPI wins. Done. Move on.


Or do what coaches have done for decades…build your schedule in the offseason with RPI in mind and play your schedule?

We haven't seen all of these late season mid-week cancellations until recently. Why is this a thing now?

The only other time I can remember two teams simply deciding they didn't want to play a game because it wasn't convenient was A&M and Pepperdine back in the 1990's. Because the SWC was a small conference, SWC coaches had to schedule a couple of extra weekend series. One season, A&M had a bye the last weekend of the regular season and MJ scheduled a nice home weekend series with Pepperdine on the bye week. Both A&M and Pepperdine had very disappointing seasons. In A&M's case, they didn't qualify for the SWC Tourney and no SWC team had ever made the NCAA's after missing the SWC Tourney. So A&M's and Pepperdine's season was in essence over. There was no reason for Pepperdine to fly across the country to play a series and it was costly, so they canceled the series to save money. I can't think of any other cancellations that weren't weather related before this season.

It's not a big deal to me. Schloss is doing what is best for him and the team. I understand. But for college baseball fans, the games should be played and I hope these recent cancellations across the country don't become a trend in the future.
EnergyAg
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Why not keep everything about the process the same but change it so a win over a low-rpi team is worth zero points instead of negative points? Or make a win over any team below a certain rpi level worth the same small amount instead of negative.
94chem
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Hop said:

94chem said:

Hop said:

85AustinAg said:

Fix the freakin' RPI calculation such that if you win a game your RPI doesn't drop and then get back to me. I support the move all day long based upon the system in place. Notre Dame cancelled a series, I'm sure there are others. Cry me a river...


So how do you fix it? You must have a strength of schedule component in any rating equation, right? It's not an issue when P5 teams are playing directional schools in February and March.





I told you how to fix it in basketball, and I told you how to fix it on the '6' thread. Kendall read my suggestions on the basketball thread. So stop being obtuse. Of course strength of schedule should matter.



Sorry I don't follow you around the boards. But now that I have read your baseball post, I have a hard time thinking this is a good solution. So your suggestion is to allow teams to use its "top 48" games in calculating the "RPI" for NCAA selection committee purposes. So now you've created essentially an exhibition season and shortened the real season to 48, because that's exactly how coaches will treat it….using these five games at their discretion for development and rest. They'll play a lot of young, little used players to get the some experience and rest the starters. Why? Because the game essentially doesn't count and doesn't mean anything for the record. So the non-conference season becomes even less relevant than it was before.

30+ years ago the college baseball regular season was 60 games. Then they trimmed it to 56 games and delayed the start of the season to late February to accommodate the north schools. Then, the NCAA allowed schools to play an exhibition 3-game fall series which takes away from the 56 limit, so you're down to 53 games. Now, you want to trim another 5 games off the "real" season.

I don't think shortening the real season even further is good for college baseball, and certainly isn't good for the college baseball fan and season ticket holder.


You're a real savant to be able to know which 8 games those are before the season starts, to also know if there will be any rainouts, and how many games every team in the NE will be able to play. How do you do it all?
TXAggie2011
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EnergyAg said:

Why not keep everything about the process the same but change it so a win over a low-rpi team is worth zero points instead of negative points? Or make a win over any team below a certain rpi level worth the same small amount instead of negative.
The RPI is a percentage. You're not collecting points, per se. RPI is 0.25 * Your Winning % + 0.50 * Your Opponents' Winning % + 0.25% Opponents' Opponents' Winning %. "Points" is kind of a misnomer.

In order to ensure a win didn't hurt you, you'd have to do a before and after comparison of the RPI and remove the game from the calculation if it hurts you.


And I just don't think some folks around here have thought through all the stuff that would induce in order to prevent the cancellation of a Tuesday night game vs Incarnate Word.

Like, if you're bothered by the idea that teams "game the RPI" in non-conference...look out. Mid-majors who slowly melt away in the standings over time due to their weak conferences, that won't happen anymore because all those games against bad teams won't hurt them anymore.

Teams would shoot their wads the first 3 or 4 weeks of the season and then play garbage schedules that can't lower their RPI.
Agthatbuilds
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TXAggie2011 said:

EnergyAg said:

Why not keep everything about the process the same but change it so a win over a low-rpi team is worth zero points instead of negative points? Or make a win over any team below a certain rpi level worth the same small amount instead of negative.
The RPI is a percentage. You're not collecting points, per se. RPI is 0.25 * Your Winning % + 0.50 * Your Opponents' Winning % + 0.25% Opponents' Opponents' Winning %. "Points" is kind of a misnomer.

In order to ensure a win didn't hurt you, you'd have to do a before and after comparison of the RPI and remove the game from the calculation if it hurts you.


And I just don't think some folks around here have thought through all the stuff that would induce in order to prevent the cancellation of a Tuesday night game vs Incarnate Word.

Like, if you're bothered by the idea that teams "game the RPI" in non-conference...look out. Mid-majors who slowly melt away in the standings over time due to their weak conferences, that won't happen anymore because all those games against bad teams won't hurt them anymore.

Teams would shoot their wads the first 3 or 4 weeks of the season and then play garbage schedules that can't lower their RPI.


Too bad. The incentives must be changed to not harm teams by winning mostly regional midweek games. That's the problem.

I would say it is the better team's duty to its players and fans to not play games that harm its postseason standing. It is especially important when that said standing is subjective to a committee that can impact things such as postseason location, money, difficulty and so on.

The fix is to either to change the algorithm or to change the weight rpi is given in playoff considerations
LOYAL AG
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The RPI has been a problem in baseball for years this is just the latest way that problem manifests itself. It's always been biased towards the second tier teams in the south who collectively play a lot of games against the SEC and ACC and thus see higher RPI scores that probably over rank them. Meanwhile on the left coast there's not as many second tier teams in reach for Tuesday games and avoiding these games is a problem. It's a geography problem.

What this is going to do is lead the top tier teams in Texas to stop scheduling Incarnate Word who is almost certain to be RPI 100 or higher. You can't be certain going into the season but odds are better that Sam Houston will be good than Incarnate Word. Of course who would have predicted State would be 100+ this year? We're just going to stop scheduling mid-week games against teams that are never good.
rangerdanger
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Didn't Arkansas cancel a game vs Little Rock because of "bad weather." Was that game rescheduled? They're just down the road…
85AustinAg
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Quote:

But for college baseball fans, the games should be played and I hope these recent cancellations across the country don't become a trend in the future.
If it is going to affect post season play then the cancellations will continue - and they should. Fix the system so you aren't punished for playing Incarnate Word with a rotten RPI or you cancel the game.

Are you saying that we should play the game and even if we win and it drops our RPI and keeps us from hosting - that this is somehow the right thing to do for our program, our coaches, our players? It's not. Incarnate Word was fine with the cancellation. Their conference tourney starts on Thursday, they get to save arms. If this is new then yes it will become a trend and unless the system is fixed I have no problem with it.

Nobody on any committee is going to look out for the Aggies so we sure as hell had better.
Hubert J. Farnsworth
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I'm glad A&M has people in charge now that make decisions that benefit their team and don't care if they piss the rest of the college sports world off. We all know if it had been some "blue blood" there would be articles praising how they "made a savvy move to get around a flawed system".
Hornbeck
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If pig can tell me where Incarnate Word is located without asking "the Googles" I'd be impressed. Some of their "fans" have issues counting over 23 (fingers, toes, teeth)....
dabo man
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Quote:

If pig can tell me where Incarnate Word is located without asking "the Googles" I'd be impressed.
That's easy. It's an all-girls Catholic school in Houston!! My Catholic high school in Beaumont used to play them in stuff all the time.
trouble
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You're closer than piggie is likely to guess
trouble
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Also, I almost went to high school there
dabo man
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Quote:

Also, I almost went to high school there

And in the end, you went to St. Agnes?!?
(Another Houston all-girls school we used to play in stuff)
trouble
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dabo man said:

Quote:

Also, I almost went to high school there

And in the end, you went to St. Agnes?!?
(Another Houston all-girls school we used to play in stuff)


Nooooooooo, I begged to finally go to public school.

The other choice was going to be O'Connell in Galveston
CaddoAggie96
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I haven't read everything regarding RPI. Just enough to know it is flawed for sure.

My question is what happens if you beat a really highly ranked team in a series and a week or two later that highly ranked team has a few injuries to key pitchers/leaders on offense and they wind up struggling the rest of the season and drop their own RPI big time?

Does that actually hurt the team that stepped up and beat them before that late season slide?
dermdoc
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I thought Incarnate Word was in San Antonio?
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TarponChaser
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I'm not fully versed in how RPI is calculated but at a minimum, winning a game should never be able to negatively impact your RPI. Seems like that's a tweak in the calculation which could be made to fix issues like this one.
trouble
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The university is. There's also an all girls high school by the same name
W
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another thing about RPI...

one reason it became so popular...is because in the 80's & 90's host sites, #1 seeds, and pairings, etc..,

started to have rather strong bias in favor of the traditional powers whether or not they had a great team or just a very good team in a particular season. And playing at home was always an advantage.

as late as 1994 the sips were still hosting as a 3-seed

nereus
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CaddoAggie96 said:

I haven't read everything regarding RPI. Just enough to know it is flawed for sure.

My question is what happens if you beat a really highly ranked team in a series and a week or two later that highly ranked team has a few injuries to key pitchers/leaders on offense and they wind up struggling the rest of the season and drop their own RPI big time?

Does that actually hurt the team that stepped up and beat them before that late season slide?
Basically yes. It constantly updates with new data. RPI looks at the overall wins and losses form your opponents (and opponent's opponents). So when those new losses by that team that was really good but now struggling due to mounting injuries occur, those loses will bring down your opponent's win percentage in the RPI calculation and end up hurting you. There are always exceptions to every rule, but in general you want the teams you play to win lots of games both before and after you play them to boost your RPI.
ThunderFighter06
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Made me think of this meme!

dabo man
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In the online dictionary, next to "crocodile tears" should be a link to this story.

I don't know how Kent is able to sleep at night; his heart broken as it is for Incarnate Word.
jkag89
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W said:

another thing about RPI...

one reason it became so popular...is because in the 80's & 90's host sites, #1 seeds, and pairings, etc..,

started to have rather strong bias in favor of the traditional powers whether or not they had a great team or just a very good team in a particular season. And playing at home was always an advantage.

as late as 1994 the sips were still hosting as a 3-seed


sippie hosted as a 3 seed in 1996.
dabo man
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And with those regionals came home cooking. Here's a still of their winning run against my hometown Lamar Cardinals in 1984. I have this saved as an animated .gif and will try to figure out how to upload that. It's more clear than this blurry pic.

W
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that's why RPI became so popular --- it took an act of congress to get the sips out of Austin for postseason play
tam2002
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I liked Kendalls suggestion today on the radio. Allow your 3 lowest RPI games to be dropped from the equation
dabo man
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And finally, the Whorns winning run at their 1984 regional...


aggietony2010
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tam2002 said:

I liked Kendalls suggestion today on the radio. Allow your 3 lowest RPI games to be dropped from the equation


I had a similar idea today. You get to drop your 5 worst regular season games, but only if you play a full 56 game slate (or whatever the max is)

Any game you don't play removes a drop.
jkag89
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dabo man said:

And finally, the Whorns winning run at their 1984 regional...



I know this was forever ago, but any idea who was the Blue? Can't say he blew the call by being out of position. Certainly a bad call but even if Lamar somehow went on to win this game, they would have needed to win a second to advance to Omaha over t.u.

In Omaha that year sippie lost in the Final to Fullerton. The format was different back then with a true 8 team double elimination bracket instead the two bracket system used today.
dabo man
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No idea who the umpire was.

The t.u. runner was named Billy Bates and went on to be drafted by the Brewers. The Lamar catcher was named David Paas. At that time, Beaumont had a AA baseball team, and Paas was a beer vendor at those games.

During the Summer of 1984, everyone wanted to talk to him about this play. I can't imagine the tips he must have made.
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