Not in youth baseball scene at all. Only bball I care about is aggie baseball.
Are select baseball teams at high school level going with small ball approach on offense at all?
Some teams doing it? Half teams? Most teams?
All team?
Or is it where most hitters swing away and they have weak hitters small ball situation dependent?

trip98 said:

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Not in youth baseball scene at all. Only bball I care about is aggie baseball.
Are select baseball teams at high school level going with small ball approach on offense at all?
Some teams doing it? Half teams? Most teams?
All team?
Or is it where most hitters swing away and they have weak hitters small ball situation dependent?

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can't speak to HS, but the sabremetrics folks have concluded there is a statistical advantage to hit with a launch angle that maximizes HR and we are seeing a lot of batters take advantage of that in part to hit around aggressive shifts or perhaps I should say OVER.

Youth baseball is everything up until HS.

HS baseball- so far my experience is anyone and everyone will be asked to bunt at some point in the season.

Select summer teams for HS aged kids- I've never seen a bunt yet.

In HS baseball, you will see teams bunt quite often. Depends on the coach and depends on the type of offense they believe suits their roster.

No one bunts in select baseball...parents don't pay money to get little Johnny to put down a sac bunt in front of college scouts.

Maybe this is a regional thing, but I see a lot of "small ball" played out where I live on the West Coast. And that is true at all levels from youth to college. Many of the big name colleges have of a small ball approach in my view.

I have always been a fan of leading with pitching, defense and manufacturing runs. My son plays travel. We fairly often travel out of state to play. His team is not the biggest team and not everyone can hit for power, but we have soundly whipped many longball/power hitting teams with a simple strategy of getting the lead-off aboard, getting guys into scoring position and manufacturing runs. Several years ago, he was coached by a guy whose sons played for team USA. We won about 5 walk-off games that year on executing a squeeze play. So, at least here, I see select teams bunt.

My father played at A&M. I spent a lot of time going to games at Olsen growing up. He would always be frustrated that in his view Texas outclassed us in terms of manufacturing runs. That was his opinion... both Gustafson and Garrido. I know the game has changed and is changing, but it is hard to argue with some of the historical results. There are a lot of national championship banners on outfield fences that have come from more of an old school "small ball"approach to the game...dominant pitching and scraping and clawing for runs.

Yep, you only see a kid try to lay down a bunt in summer ball if they are trying to get out of a slump.

I do see HS teams bunt at times but they don't do it as often as they should unless it's there so called designated bunters. Most times kids can get in scoring position by other means. You see so many games lost bc of a wild pitch or passed ball.

The one thing some HS school coaches overkill is the take a pitch. Drives me nuts when they continually do it with their best players that know how to not swing at a bad pitch but have the take and the pitcher throws it right down the middle.

Aggie said:

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CoachO_08 said:

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No one bunts in select baseball...parents don't pay money to get little Johnny to put down a sac bunt in front of college scouts.

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That's just simply not true and that mentality is what's wrong with travel ball

Well I paid so My kid is not bunting

Yeah it would help the team and yeah Johnny is 5'8" 140 lbs and would struggle to hit a golf ball out of the yard.... but he is taking a daddy hack

Also not every hitter is a gap to gap RBI guy.
I've seen colleges come look at kids and they want to see them handle the bat, they want to see them bunt.

Colleges play small ball, they want to see guys that execute

Not everybody is impressed with a 310 foot fly ball that every Hs kid tries to pimp

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I agree. I know of a lot of parents who are upset if a coach asks their kid to bunt, it is becoming common to never bunt for select teams. But you're certainly right that that it's a problem. I was a 6'-2" 200 lb at 13 years old in high school and I loved to bunt. I knew I'd never beat the ball to first base, not in a million years, but hey, if it was gonna help the team, I'm on board. A lot of guys can't bunt because they never practice or never take practice seriously, but I had coaches who cared if we could bunt so I learned to bunt and got a lot of praise and probably a bit of extra playing time for it. At this point, showing the ability to control a bunt and sacrifice for your team should count for as much as hitting a fly out to the warning track like we've seen you do 98 times on your game tape.

CoachO_08 said:

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Aggie said:

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CoachO_08 said:

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No one bunts in select baseball...parents don't pay money to get little Johnny to put down a sac bunt in front of college scouts.

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That's just simply not true and that mentality is what's wrong with travel ball

Well I paid so My kid is not bunting

Yeah it would help the team and yeah Johnny is 5'8" 140 lbs and would struggle to hit a golf ball out of the yard.... but he is taking a daddy hack

Also not every hitter is a gap to gap RBI guy.
I've seen colleges come look at kids and they want to see them handle the bat, they want to see them bunt.

Colleges play small ball, they want to see guys that execute

Not everybody is impressed with a 310 foot fly ball that every Hs kid tries to pimp

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I coach HS baseball and select baseball during the fall/summer. I don't like the select ball mentality at the plate but it is what it is. We end up coaching a lot of that stuff out of kids in the spring.

Pitchers try to light up the gun and hitters try to hit doubles and bombs. I don't agree with that being the end all and be all either but that is largely what is valued in the scouting world right now.

Unless a kid is an absolute burner, the "big boys" in college baseball look for pop before they look for the ability to handle the bat. Look at who is getting offered at 14-15 by the power programs in college baseball.

I'm just going based off what I see. Small kids with speed are gonna drag bunt because it's a way to show off what's probably their best tool...but you see almost zero true small ball over the summer.

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This is very true.

I really don't enjoy watching summer baseball. It's just so poorly played from a strategic standpoint.

A good high school baseball game is so much more enjoyable.

And I agree that college coaches use stop watches and radar guns as crutches a lot nowadays and it is to the detriment of the game in my opinion.

Yeppers and it's crazy how many average players play summer ball. No ones making them play so if they want dish out their money to watch their son strike out, so be it. One would think by HS many would finally accept the fact of their kids ability. It's not like they have these things called stats that kind of show them where things stand.

I work at a high school and was at a high school baseball game a few nights ago. The team that we were playing is a big believer in small ball. I asked our coach about it and he said that there are several factors at play in why small ball is attempted and often works at the high school level especially in smaller classification schools.

-The number of players that can truly drive the ball into the gaps or that have legitimate home run power is very low that means that only rarely do they get anything more than a single.
- The smaller the classification the fewer number of really skilled fielders there are on the field at any given time.
- Bunting is an acquired skill so if a coach really spends time teaching it and has their players do it in a game they can be fairly proficient at it.
- When a kid swings away (especially if they are a average or below hitter) they often will pop up or strike out. That puts little to no pressure on the defense. A weak ground ball is only slightly higher pressure.
- When a kid bunts there are alot of moving parts/variables. If the bunt is down and not right at the fielder then the fielder has to make a somewhat athletic play to field the ball. They then have to choose the correct base to throw to and make a good throw. The fielder covering that base then has to catch it. As you can see there is alot that can go wrong in that scenario and the less skilled the player the higher chance there is for an error either physical or mental to be made.

This coach told me that there are teams that he plays where small ball is genius and the way to go and other teams where it's just giving away outs because their players can field their positions.

Quote:

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- When a kid bunts there are alot of moving parts/variables. If the bunt is down and not right at the fielder then the fielder has to make a somewhat athletic play to field the ball. They then have to choose the correct base to throw to and make a good throw. The fielder covering that base then has to catch it. As you can see there is alot that can go wrong in that scenario and the less skilled the player the higher chance there is for an error either physical or mental to be made.

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I coached summer HS baseball for 4 years; my teams were made up of kids from Wimberley, San Marcos, New Braunfels, and included both public and private school players.

We would not be considered a select team but a bunch of kids that loved the game, and I loved to coach them.

I taught the kids the value of the bunt and how we could steal a base on a well-placed bunt. When we had a runner on 1st and I called for the bunt the batter knew to place the ball down the 3rd baseline and the runner knew to "steal" third on the play.

Most HS pitchers don't cover a base on a bunt, so a bunt down the line forced the 3rd baseman to make the play, the SS covered 2nd and the 1st baseman covered his base. This left 3rd base unoccupied so our runner would always take 3rd.

defensively I taught the players where to be on the bunt, including outfield back up on the play and the pitcher to cover a base.

Your in good company, ABATTBQ87...

Here's a pretty good coach that believes in the value of the bunt -->
Vanderbilt big on the little things

ABATTBQ87 said:

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Most HS pitchers don't cover a base on a bunt, so a bunt down the line forced the 3rd baseman to make the play, the SS covered 2nd and the 1st baseman covered his base. This left 3rd base unoccupied so our runner would always take 3rd.

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Then they weren't taught very well. Bunt down 3rd, 1B stays, 2B covers 2nd & SS rotates to 3rd. P moves where needed.

Coached Elite & Premier level teams for several years w/2 guys who played college ball, 1 for Coach Graham b/f he got to Rice.

All our kids learned to bunt, including drag bunting for my son & other w/wheels. If we were teaching bunting, we were also teaching how to cover bunts in situations. When you have guys who have been through it, maybe it's different than what others get.

To OP's point, it goes back to philosophy. What does the coach like or think will work best. I've seen our HS team execute bunting & fielding the bunt.

I'm not a fan of the way we try to bunt. I think it has led to the misses & popped up attempts. But that's just me.

12thMan9 said:

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ABATTBQ87 said:

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Most HS pitchers don't cover a base on a bunt, so a bunt down the line forced the 3rd baseman to make the play, the SS covered 2nd and the 1st baseman covered his base. This left 3rd base unoccupied so our runner would always take 3rd.

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Then they weren't taught very well. Bunt down 3rd, 1B stays, 2B covers 2nd & SS rotates to 3rd. P moves where needed.

Coached Elite & Premier level teams for several years w/2 guys who played college ball, 1 for Coach Graham b/f he got to Rice.

All our kids learned to bunt, including drag bunting for my son & other w/wheels. If we were teaching bunting, we were also teaching how to cover bunts in situations. When you have guys who have been through it, maybe it's different than what others get.

To OP's point, it goes back to philosophy. What does the coach like or think will work best. I've seen our HS team execute bunting & fielding the bunt.

I'm not a fan of the way we try to bunt. I think it has led to the misses & popped up attempts. But that's just me.

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They didn't teach it correctly either. The catcher trades places with the 3B (runner at first only and bunt to 3B).

Sandman98 said:

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12thMan9 said:

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ABATTBQ87 said:

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Most HS pitchers don't cover a base on a bunt, so a bunt down the line forced the 3rd baseman to make the play, the SS covered 2nd and the 1st baseman covered his base. This left 3rd base unoccupied so our runner would always take 3rd.

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Then they weren't taught very well. Bunt down 3rd, 1B stays, 2B covers 2nd & SS rotates to 3rd. P moves where needed.

Coached Elite & Premier level teams for several years w/2 guys who played college ball, 1 for Coach Graham b/f he got to Rice.

All our kids learned to bunt, including drag bunting for my son & other w/wheels. If we were teaching bunting, we were also teaching how to cover bunts in situations. When you have guys who have been through it, maybe it's different than what others get.

To OP's point, it goes back to philosophy. What does the coach like or think will work best. I've seen our HS team execute bunting & fielding the bunt.

I'm not a fan of the way we try to bunt. I think it has led to the misses & popped up attempts. But that's just me.

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They didn't teach it correctly either. The catcher trades places with the 3B (runner at first only and bunt to 3B).

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Not true 100% of the time. Again, philosophies. If you teach your P not to cover, then yes. If you teach your P to cover, then no.

Some really interesting perspectives here and enjoyed reading. My 2 cents is there are multiple factors that would determine if appropriate to bunt. Where are you in the game, what type pitcher are you facing, do you expect a low scoring game, etc. My preference is not to bunt early but again it depends on if you are facing a high quality pitcher and expect a low scoring game.

Really interesting perspective on summer select baseball. I ran select programs for 16 years and we seldom bunted unless in a very competitive tournament environment. Letting kids hit does not mean they are getting bad coaching. There are bad select coaches and bad high school coaches. None of that is determined by how much they choose to bunt.

third deck said:

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Your in good company, ABATTBQ87...

Here's a pretty good coach that believes in the value of the bunt -->
Vanderbilt big on the little things

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I love this approach, as it is suited for the group I coach, including my son, 12u. We are in the process of improving both our bunt offense and defense. We have a play called on an audible of "vanderbilt" or the sign of a V drug across the chest, for this very same thing. R2 steals 3B, batter lays a bunt down and R2 keeps on going all the way to home. I saw Vanderbilt do it against us a few years ago ( 2019?) and it has become my favorite play in baseball..

I currently coach at the high school level, and the small ball strategy is still very prevalent. IMO, the launch angle discussion is only valid for the "elite" hitters. Guys who weigh 140-150 pounds and run under 4 seconds to first base should not be trying to "launch angle" balls to wall. This mindset tends to make kids try to lift everything and it ends up with a lot of lazy flyballs. I try to encourage and teach bat path versus launch angle. With the correct bat path, you can put hitters in position to create the correct launch angle.

As far as small ball goes, if a team is efficient to very efficient to great at it, it creates an immense amount of pressure on the opposing team. It can even change the way they practice leading up to a game. Knowing a team may lay down a bunt at any time shrinks the defense and creates larger gaps. Small ball also includes, hit and runs and bunt and runs, where the offense has the opportunity to catch the defense out of position to take an extra base. These teams are also usually the teams who run the bases better than any one else. They know how to take advantage of the slightest error, will always take the extra base, and it makes the pitchers uneasy because they have to worry about bunts, steals, hit and runs even squeeze plays.

The strategy can create a lot of opportunities for the defense, and while it may result in some given outs from the offense, all it takes is one slip up from the defense and 2-3 runs are on the board. Honestly, from the outside, it does not look glamorous, but this type of offense takes a lot more preparation to compete against. You have to spend more time on bunt defenses, first and third defenses, and pick off plays. So it takes away some time to work on other things you may normally work on through out the week.

Aggie said:

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CoachO_08 said:

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No one bunts in select baseball...parents don't pay money to get little Johnny to put down a sac bunt in front of college scouts.

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That's just simply not true and that mentality is what's wrong with travel ball

Well I paid so My kid is not bunting

Yeah it would help the team and yeah Johnny is 5'8" 140 lbs and would struggle to hit a golf ball out of the yard.... but he is taking a daddy hack

Also not every hitter is a gap to gap RBI guy.
I've seen colleges come look at kids and they want to see them handle the bat, they want to see them bunt.

Colleges play small ball, they want to see guys that execute

Not everybody is impressed with a 310 foot fly ball that every Hs kid tries to pimp

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I completely agree with this. Travel ball is also completely watered down with organizations who will take money from anyone willing to pay it. There are still great and elite organizations, but there are some/many "select" teams floating around that are glorified rec teams.

I graduated in the early oughts and I think we had 5 or 6 guys that played D1, one guy that played some D2 I think, and another that played D1 basketball. Everyone was expected to bunt.

Architelico said:

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third deck said:

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Your in good company, ABATTBQ87...

Here's a pretty good coach that believes in the value of the bunt -->
Vanderbilt big on the little things

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I love this approach, as it is suited for the group I coach, including my son, 12u. We are in the process of improving both our bunt offense and defense. We have a play called on an audible of "vanderbilt" or the sign of a V drug across the chest, for this very same thing. R2 steals 3B, batter lays a bunt down and R2 keeps on going all the way to home. I saw Vanderbilt do it against us a few years ago ( 2019?) and it has become my favorite play in baseball.

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Our 12u team successfully pulled off " vanderbilt" this weekend in the top of the final inning to add a critical insurance run. Bonus: batter was safe at 1 on the bunt.