Need Balk rules interpretation help

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aggiebrad94
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4:25p, 8/7/18
AG
We lost at the World Series on a balk. 10U Mustang Division this past Sunday. PONY plays under MLB rules

The Situation
Right-handed pitcher. Runners at 1st and 3rd. Two outs.
Pitcher lifts up left leg, steps towards 3rd, fakes a throw. Umpire calls balk because he said plant foot did not disengage from the rubber.

I was a lefty pitcher so this was the first time I had ever heard that. I have seen pitchers all year fake a throw to 3rd. The only rule I could find in the MLB rules was Rule 6.02(a)(3) to 6.02(a)(8) and it states a pitcher must always throw to the base except for 2nd.

Terrible way to end a season for 9 & 10 year olds, even if it was the correct call.


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powerbelly
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4:46p, 8/7/18
AG
IIRC the MLB outlawed faking to third without stepping off the rubber before the 2013 season.

I think this is covered under 8.05c
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kevmiller
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In reply to aggiebrad94 • 6:58p, 8/7/18
aggiebrad94 said:


Terrible way to end a season for 9 & 10 year olds, even if it was the correct call.




They're 9 and 10 year olds... it really doesn't matter
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96ags
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11:30a, 8/8/18
AG
I think high school might be the only place that move is still legal.
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AggieBaseball06
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12:35p, 8/8/18
AG
Quote:
Terrible way to end a season for 9 & 10 year olds, even if it was the correct call.


We certainly wouldn't want to make the snowflakes follow the rules if it means they are going to have negative feelz.
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Sandman98
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11:50p, 8/8/18
AG
The first to third move was outlawed by almost every league. Please don't get mad at your coach, but he's the reason the game ended in a way that made you unhappy. That or a 10 year old acted 10 years old and tried the move on his own.
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MAROON
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In reply to 96ags • 2:44p, 8/9/18
AG
96ags said:
I think high school might be the only place that move is still legal.
my son had a killer version of this move in high school. It worked more often than it didn't. Everytime he did it I would look over and the coaches in both dugouts would be mimicking it trying to figure out how he did it. Never got called a balk.
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BurnetAggie99
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7:56p, 8/9/18
Had he come set then stepped off the back of the rubber that would have been legal cause no you fake do whatever at that point. MLB outlawed it the old way. I think still legal in college but they may change too.
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DWren
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9:48p, 8/9/18
1st to 3rd is still legal in HS.

Which I have never understood why All these young kids tournaments play MLB rules.

Why not just play federation HS rules? Like you know... they will play in HS.
Also always find it ridiculous see young kids .. 13-14 wearing 2 piece catchers helmet that mom and dad spent all this $ on. Guess what kid ... you can't use that in HS.
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BurnetAggie99
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11:01p, 8/9/18
Most Select organizations and Leagues like Pony and LL don't allow the two piece as it doesn't meet the NOCSAE standards. That's doesn't mean though it's strictly enforced.
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nereus
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In reply to DWren • 11:44a, 8/10/18
AG
DWren said:
1st to 3rd is still legal in HS.

Which I have never understood why All these young kids tournaments play MLB rules.

Why not just play federation HS rules? Like you know... they will play in HS.
Also always find it ridiculous see young kids .. 13-14 wearing 2 piece catchers helmet that mom and dad spent all this $ on. Guess what kid ... you can't use that in HS.

I think it is partially a marketing gimmick. We play with the same rules you see at the big league level.


Honestly though, I wish fed would adopt rules more similar to obr so we didn't have so many differences. Some of the safety rules I understand, but I'm not really sure why fed needs different rules for things like appeals (allowing dead ball appeal), balks (immediate dead ball vs delayed dead ball), when a player abandons effort to advance on third strike (dugout or circle), etc.

There are also some that I understand why they do them, but I wish they would get rid of them. Like courtesy runners. Make the catchers run the bases.

Of course, a few years ago I would have said that fed should make them throw 4 pitches for an IBB too. That ended up going the other direction.
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aggiebrad94
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In reply to AggieBaseball06 • 11:53a, 8/10/18
AG
AggieBaseball06 said:
Quote:
Terrible way to end a season for 9 & 10 year olds, even if it was the correct call.


We certainly wouldn't want to make the snowflakes follow the rules if it means they are going to have negative feelz.
My intention was more akin to a basketball or football official swallowing their whistles late so the game doesn't end with a flag or free throw. If the ump doesn't make the call, no one in the stands is worse off. The way the game was going, I doubt we hold them no matter what.
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Aggieangler93
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12:43p, 8/10/18
AG
Balks are part of the game. I am glad they called it by the rules, especially in 10u. I wish all sports applied all the rules, the whole game. The rules are there for a reason. It's a slippery slope when you let the rules be disregarded. The rules are designed to make the game fair for the players and safe. How does one team know when you will stop enforcing rule X?

I don't watch basketball or soccer, because I think their officiating is a joke across the board.

I've been coaching youth baseball for 10 years and it irritates me to have the umpire widen the strike zone, to meet a time clock, late in the game. That's not allowed in the rule book. Umps are doing it at the direction of greedy tournament directors, alone. It's detrimental to the batters and puts the coaches in a rough situation many times, if the game is close.

For the record, I've been the guy calling the pitches in a close game, with my son on the mound at about 10u. He had held the other team for 2 innings in relief while we battled back to a tie. I gave the sign to pick to 3rd, with a runner there on a huge lead. My son, misinterpreted the catcher sign as pick to 1st, even though 1st was not occupied. So he did what he thought he was told, and picked to 1st. Since this was an empty base, he balked the winning run in. As a result, he knows to never pick to an empty base now and will never forget it. It was a hard lesson, and it was painful at the time, but I am glad they enforced the rule. The sad part was, no one on the team was hitting his fastball, and I probably should've just let him throw the heat. I don't regret calling the pick, as any ball in the dirt would have scored a kid with such a big lead anyway. I wish I would have just had a mound visit, to make sure catcher and pitcher were clear on the matter.

I also agree with other posters that the different rules in different amateur baseball organization make it confusing at times. We basically cut out the fake to 3 throw to 1 move, when the MLB did, so that our kids weren't confused.

And this is nothing personal against you or your son. I'm not saying there was intent to deceive there, but I know some youth teams in my area that would attempt it in a heartbeat knowing it is wrong. They look for any way to bend or break the rules that they can get away with. That's another topic for another day.
Class of '93 - proud Dad of a '22 grad and a '26 student!
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ColoradoMooseHerd
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In reply to aggiebrad94 • 1:09p, 8/10/18
aggiebrad94 said:
AggieBaseball06 said:
Quote:
Terrible way to end a season for 9 & 10 year olds, even if it was the correct call.


We certainly wouldn't want to make the snowflakes follow the rules if it means they are going to have negative feelz.
My intention was more akin to a basketball or football official swallowing their whistles late so the game doesn't end with a flag or free throw. If the ump doesn't make the call, no one in the stands is worse off. The way the game was going, I doubt we hold them no matter what.
I have to disagree. I don't like it in basketball or football when refs swallow their whistles. That changes the game and allows the players to commit crazy fouls and not get called. If it is a foul early in the game, it should be a foul in the last seconds of the game too.

Also, I think the umpire made the correct call in this situation too. You have to call the balk. It was an illegal play because of the deception. Even if it is allowed in High School, it is not allowed here. If he actually got the run out, would you have been ok with the balk call?

These are moments that help develop players ability to handle pressure situations. Can they make critical decisions with the game on the line? Sometimes it is not the player, but rather the coaches that feel the pressure. But either way, you need situations like this to be real and by the book, because it helps teach that actions have real consequences. That you can't just say I didn't mean to hurt anyone or I didn't know.

You always need to know the rules/laws and ignorance is not a defense. If you want to push the boundaries, you must know that they will call a balk or give you a ticket.
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nereus
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In reply to aggiebrad94 • 1:34p, 8/10/18
AG
aggiebrad94 said:
AggieBaseball06 said:
Quote:
Terrible way to end a season for 9 & 10 year olds, even if it was the correct call.


We certainly wouldn't want to make the snowflakes follow the rules if it means they are going to have negative feelz.
I think we can call the rules and it still be a terrible way to end a season. Terrible things happen all the time in life. I don't think we need to protect a kid from every terrible thing, but a season ending on a balk or an error is still terrible.
Quote:
My intention was more akin to a basketball or football official swallowing their whistles late so the game doesn't end with a flag or free throw. If the ump doesn't make the call, no one in the stands is worse off. The way the game was going, I doubt we hold them no matter what.

Putting aside the debate on whether umpires should do that or not, that isn't a call where you could just "swallow your whistle" even if the umpire wanted to. They can only do that on judgement calls and not on a rules violation call. There isn't a judgement call there and the rule is very clear. Everyone in the ballpark saw that the pitcher faked a throw from the rubber. Everyone in the ballpark may not know the rule, but if the opposing coach does the umpire is screwed if they don't call it. They either have to lie that the pitcher stepped off the rubber, lie about the rules and lose on appeal, or change their call after talking to the opposing coach (which always creates a s*** storm even if it is the right thing to do). You can't NOT call that.

That is different than something like not coming to a stop before pitching (which we see not called fairly frequently when there is only a runner on third base). There is a matter of judgement on what is a complete stop and how long someone has to come to a stop for it to count as a stop. If a coach comes out to complain the umpire says that in his judgement there was a stop.
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LOYAL AG
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12:22p, 8/12/18
AG
I actually blame your local league and the tournaments between league play and this tournament. My son came up through Pony tee ball and coach pitch and we played with a rule in tee ball where an infielder could hold a ball up over his head and that ended the play. I got the point in league play but when we got to all star play (let's ignore the absurdity of all stars for tee ball) there was no such rule and we had to waste valuable practice time breaking that habit. The local league needs to play the game the way it's going to be played at the highest level those kids will encounter that year. I don't care if that means the 10U kids have to step off to throw to 3B or the tee ballers have to get it in to the base in front of the furthest runner. Don't teach kids things in their local league that have to untaught later that year.
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ABATTBQ87
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2:12p, 8/12/18
AG
Quote:
The Situation
Right-handed pitcher. Runners at 1st and 3rd. Two outs.
Pitcher lifts up left leg, steps towards 3rd, fakes a throw. Umpire calls balk because he said plant foot did not disengage from the rubber.


This has nothing to do with the 3rd to 1st attempt if a pitcher is in contact with the pitchers plate and steps toward a base he has to make throw
If a left-handed pitcher steps toward first he has to make the throw while making contact with the pitcher's plate

If the pitcher disengages from the pitcher's plate by stepping off of it then he has the right to fake the throw with no penalty being enforced
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aggiebrad94
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10:12a, 8/14/18
AG
Quote:
Don't teach kids things in their local league that have to untaught later that year.
I'm not sure anyone was teaching this. I think most of us just didn't the rule was changed a few years back.
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LOYAL AG
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In reply to aggiebrad94 • 4:44p, 8/14/18
AG
aggiebrad94 said:
Quote:
Don't teach kids things in their local league that have to untaught later that year.
I'm not sure anyone was teaching this. I think most of us just didn't the rule was changed a few years back.
I have no doubt that's true and that's on your league. It's the league's job to teach the coaches what rules changes have come into play since last season. I assume kids were doing this throughout your regular season which is precisely my point. The league didn't enforce the rules correctly which effectively "taught" those kids that it was OK to do something that in fact wasn't OK. If the coaches clinics in February and March covered the new balk rule a couple of years ago this wouldn't have happened because your coaches would have known. IMO it's hard to expect volunteer coaches to keep up with the rules changes even in a sport like baseball which doesn't change much from one year to the next. Thus the commissioner needs to accept responsibility for learning the rules changes and educating those volunteer coaches. Just my $.02.
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96ags
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12:05p, 8/16/18
AG
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LOYAL AG
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In reply to 96ags • 1:53p, 8/16/18
AG
96ags said:
Good. I've always hated that move and hated it more when it was banned in MLB but not NCAA.

I don't like the rule allowing you to intentionally walk a batter without throwing four pitches. Literally the day MLB passed that rule A&M won a game on a wild pitch during an intentional walk. Not it doesn't happen often but it can. Or could.
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96ags
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In reply to LOYAL AG • 2:03p, 8/16/18
AG
I've never understood the hatred for it. There are some legitimate uses for it outside of actually picking runners off but looks like high school ball is the only place it is still legal and I suspect they will follow suit soon.
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Sandman98
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In reply to LOYAL AG • 3:03p, 8/16/18
AG
An under the radar consequence of the IBB rule is it eliminates the decision making process in key moments when a pitching change is about to be made. Some coaches like using the current pitcher for the IBB (so that they aren't the first pitches the new guy throws), and others want to bring in the relief pitcher to issue the pass and get them in the flow of the game.

What won't change is pitchers getting pissed for being the one who is the pitcher of record for that base runner.
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Aggies2009
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In reply to 96ags • 4:01p, 8/16/18
AG
96ags said:
I've never understood the hatred for it. There are some legitimate uses for it outside of actually picking runners off but looks like high school ball is the only place it is still legal and I suspect they will follow suit soon.
Wanting to say Kilkenny got the LSU runner in the 8th with it in his complete game 3-1 win over them.
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cevans_40
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12:49a, 8/17/18
AG
Making it easier to steal. Typical America.
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ColoradoMooseHerd
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In reply to 96ags • 10:42a, 8/17/18
96ags said:
I've never understood the hatred for it. There are some legitimate uses for it outside of actually picking runners off but looks like high school ball is the only place it is still legal and I suspect they will follow suit soon.
If you are referring to seeing if the runner is going or if the batter shows bunt or not, then those are things that slow the game down and they want eliminated.
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nereus
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In reply to Sandman98 • 10:51a, 8/17/18
AG
Sandman98 said:
and others want to bring in the relief pitcher to issue the pass and get them in the flow of the game.
I don't think they outlawed throwing four pitches to make an intentional walk. If a coach really feels it would help them get into the flow of the game they could still have their new pitcher do a traditional IBB. I don't think we will ever see it happen (as I can't imagine the benefits of getting into the flow of the game would ever be worth the risk of a wild pitch), but I don't believe it is actually prohibited.
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96ags
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In reply to ColoradoMooseHerd • 11:27a, 8/17/18
AG
ColoradoMooseHerd said:
96ags said:
I've never understood the hatred for it. There are some legitimate uses for it outside of actually picking runners off but looks like high school ball is the only place it is still legal and I suspect they will follow suit soon.
If you are referring to seeing if the runner is going or if the batter shows bunt or not, then those are things that slow the game down and they want eliminated.


I know that is the talking point, but I can't imagine those scenarios are responsible for any appreciable increase in game length over the course of a season. But I have to admit I'm not on the side that believes games are too long so clearly they don't care what I think!
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ColoradoMooseHerd
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In reply to 96ags • 11:38a, 8/17/18
96ags said:
ColoradoMooseHerd said:
96ags said:
I've never understood the hatred for it. There are some legitimate uses for it outside of actually picking runners off but looks like high school ball is the only place it is still legal and I suspect they will follow suit soon.
If you are referring to seeing if the runner is going or if the batter shows bunt or not, then those are things that slow the game down and they want eliminated.


I know that is the talking point, but I can't imagine those scenarios are responsible for any appreciable increase in game length over the course of a season. But I have to admit I'm not on the side that believes games are too long so clearly they don't care what I think!
Some coaches abuse this. MJ and Lawler were actually A&M coaches that abused this. They would continuously call fake throws to see if they showed bunt or not. Or if a runner flinched. Then they would call a different defense and then start it all over. Just not necessary and waste of time. Glad it is eliminated.
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96ags
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In reply to ColoradoMooseHerd • 11:40a, 8/17/18
AG
ColoradoMooseHerd said:
96ags said:
ColoradoMooseHerd said:
96ags said:
I've never understood the hatred for it. There are some legitimate uses for it outside of actually picking runners off but looks like high school ball is the only place it is still legal and I suspect they will follow suit soon.
If you are referring to seeing if the runner is going or if the batter shows bunt or not, then those are things that slow the game down and they want eliminated.


I know that is the talking point, but I can't imagine those scenarios are responsible for any appreciable increase in game length over the course of a season. But I have to admit I'm not on the side that believes games are too long so clearly they don't care what I think!
Some coaches abuse this. MJ and Lawler were actually A&M coaches that abused this. They would continuously call fake throws to see if they showed bunt or not. Or if a runner flinched. Then they would call a different defense and then start it all over. Just not necessary and waste of time. Glad it is eliminated.
I like that cat/mouse part, but it doesn't matter now. I'm sure high school will follow soon.
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94chem
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3:22p, 8/27/18
Quote:
My son, misinterpreted the catcher sign as pick to 1st, even though 1st was not occupied. So he did what he thought he was told, and picked to 1st.
Ok, am I the only one who found this pretty darned funny? I think even my yard crew would have questioned this sign.
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