We Can Win

5,602 Views | 84 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by greg.w.h
GE
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free_mhayden said:

You think in 3.6 seconds Starks could have taken the inbounds and made a quick pass to an open Mahan for 3.

But in 4.0 seconds a player grabbing the ball, turning around and making a quick pass for 3 simply could not happen.

That's brilliant. I'll bow out of this conversation so as not to have the thread devolve further -- who can argue with that crackerjack analysis.
You think he couldn't pass the ball down the court in that amount of time and Mahan get off a shot?
Hop
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free_mhayden said:

You think in 3.6 seconds Starks could have taken the inbounds and made a quick pass to an open Mahan for 3.

But in 4.0 seconds a player grabbing the ball, turning around and making a quick pass for 3 simply could not happen.

That's brilliant. I'll bow out of this conversation so as not to have the thread devolve further -- who can argue with that crackerjack analysis.
I suggest you bone up on your physics. Momentum (both positive and negative) is a significant factor that you don't seem to grasp. A guy is running full speed away from the basket trying to secure a contested ball will have to reverse the momentum going away from the basket(time)...stop(time)...turn(time)...and then accelerate from a stop position(time). If he had the presence to catch, turn, and throw in one motion, he couldn't get it much past the mid-court line and not very accurate because of the negative momentum.

There is a reason why most coaches now employ the type of in-bounds play with just a few seconds that the pass is made to a player running toward the basket. It gets the ballhandler to the basket much quicker.
Mikeyshooter
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Hop said:

EXCELL said:

Quote:

Avery has a lot more talent and he isn't doing much with it.
He beat Kentucky and he lost a heartbreaker to us on a miracle running 3 from way outside the arc.




He's in year four and his career SEC record is three games below .500. And he has had talent.
Avery gave the game away when he didn't tell the shooter to miss the last FT. Shows he still has a long way to go.
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Mikeyshooter said:

Hop said:

EXCELL said:

Quote:

Avery has a lot more talent and he isn't doing much with it.
He beat Kentucky and he lost a heartbreaker to us on a miracle running 3 from way outside the arc.




He's in year four and his career SEC record is three games below .500. And he has had talent.
Avery gave the game away when he didn't tell the shooter to miss the last FT. Shows he still has a long way to go.
I understand that strategy and don't have a problem with it, but I don't think it's a no-brainer call either. A lot of crazy things happen when you ask a player to do something that isn't natural and isn't practiced. Using up all of his timeouts going into the final minute and a half was a big mistake that led to the 5-second call. He also allowed A&M to successfully execute a couple of in-bounds plays that resulted in points. The biggest mistake though was refusing to double team Nebo on the entry pass after he hit his first 2-3 baby hooks. You must force a bad perimeter shooting team to beat you from the outside if you are getting beat inside.
mhayden
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I absolutely think he could. Hop is adamant that with half a second more that Oregon State had no prayer of turning around and finding someone to pass to as well.
Aston04
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By the way-out that 5 second call was insanely quick. I replayed cause it didn't seem right... The official's tempo (looking at visible count) got much faster on 4 and even faster on the fifth "second."
Hop
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free_mhayden said:

I absolutely think he could. Hop is adamant that with half a second more that Oregon State had no prayer of turning around and finding someone to pass to as well.


I'm saying that any other option on that play was significantly far worse than the two free throws we gave the guy with the foul. That is a no-brainer and the gist of that original comment.
EXCELL
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Quote:

You think he couldn't pass the ball down the court in that amount of time and Mahan get off a shot?
Are you sure you read BK's plan correctly?
The plan was a kickout to Mahan which would mean TWO passes (the inbounds and the pass to Mahan) in 3.6 seconds.

Can it be done? Nearly impossible unless Bama stands around with their hands in their pockets for the whole process.
EXCELL
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Quote:

A guy is running full speed away from the basket trying to secure a contested ball will have to reverse the momentum going away from the basket(time)...stop(time)...turn(time)...and then accelerate from a stop position(time). If he had the presence to catch, turn, and throw in one motion, he couldn't get it much past the mid-court line and not very accurate because of the negative momentum.
But that's precisely the play that our resident basketball genius and headcoach called.

The play worked but you're making an argument that BK's plan was flawed and essentially impossible ... what with the physics and all.
Hop
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EXCELL said:

Quote:

A guy is running full speed away from the basket trying to secure a contested ball will have to reverse the momentum going away from the basket(time)...stop(time)...turn(time)...and then accelerate from a stop position(time). If he had the presence to catch, turn, and throw in one motion, he couldn't get it much past the mid-court line and not very accurate because of the negative momentum.
But that's precisely the play that our resident basketball genius and headcoach called.

The play worked but you're making an argument that BK's plan was flawed and essentially impossible ... what with the physics and all.
I'm discussing with free m-hayden the play at the end of the Oregon State game where he challenged my assertion that the Starks foul was a horrendous foul because there was no way for Tinkle to get off a decent shot. You are in la-la land my man.

The play on Saturday was to pass it to Starks running TOWARD the basket and using his forward momentum to get close to the basket. The other play we were discussing negative momentum and how it was so much harder for the Tinkle kid to reverse his momentum and get the ball up the court in 4 seconds.

LawHall88
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On the Mahan issue, sometimes players break from the plan because circumstances warrant. Acie Law was supposed to feed Joseph Jones in the post at the end of the Texas game, but took The Shot instead. It happens. Didn't make BCG an idiot for calling something else.

Quote:

After more than a century of men's college basketball, Texas A&M hangs just one retired jersey from the rafters of Reed Arena.

The owner of that jersey, Acie Law IV, also claims arguably the biggest moment in Aggie basketball history a moment that wasn't supposed to happen.

"That wasn't the play," said Joseph Jones, Law's teammate and Aggie starter from 2004-2008. "The play was actually to throw the ball inside [to me], but as the great player Acie is, he saw the ball wasn't going to make it inside He did a great job seeing the play wasn't going to work, and he made a great shot."
http://www.thebatt.com/sports/on-the-year-anniversary-acie-law-iv-dominique-kirk-chris/article_f3119554-df72-11e5-adfa-67e98c77ed52.html

In terms of the Mahan play, you can advance the ball full court with a pass in the time that was left, but everything has to be perfect. If the pass is inaccurate, or Mahan doesn't field it cleanly in position to shoot immediately, then it won't work. Putting it in Starks' hands to win or lose the game was probably our best option, even given how poorly he had shot all game.

EXCELL
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Quote:

On the Mahan issue, sometimes players break from the plan because circumstances warrant. Acie Law was supposed to feed Joseph Jones in the post at the end of the Texas game, but took The Shot instead. It happens. Didn't make BCG an idiot for calling something else.

Absolutely true.

BUT, BCG's plan was at least a workable, realistic one.
The kickout from a full court inbound pass was not.

Either way ... we win and that's what really matters.

But let's not fool ourselves that BK somehow worked some coaching magic in those final seconds.
greg.w.h
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Starks has an auto mode when the play isn't working. It works out at a relatively low rate but he does create and if he could hit layups and three point shots in clutch conditions more often we probably would win more often.

No one elseNebo excepted but give me a secondreally does create. Mitchell does decently on dribbling but not quite as sharp on drives or pull-ups or threes. Nebo can't really drive so he's going to have limits on creating out of the paint.

Name another player that is go to. Mahan really isn't though perhaps a catch and shoot is more realistic.
EXCELL
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Don't have the season stats available but I think Mahan's 3pt shooting percentage is better than Starks.
greg.w.h
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EXCELL said:

Don't have the season stats available but I think Mahan's 3pt shooting percentage is better than Starks.


Probably. But clutch or go to?
greg.w.h
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I'll note: getting the ball out of Starks' hands and into Mitchell's has made a better balance and made Starks' a "better decision maker" already. That isn't "high praise" as much as just an unjaundiced look at how the team behaves.
 
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